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Author Topic: Faction ships  (Read 4228 times)

Abradolf Lincler

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Faction ships
« on: November 03, 2015, 07:11:22 PM »

There should be different paint jobs for each of the ships, matching the faction that own them, like maybe a lower tech ship, but that is owned by the Tri-Tachyon, so it's painted Blue and white.

OOOH, A red APOGEE, that would be sick.
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agigabyte

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Re: Faction ships
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2015, 07:49:21 PM »

I like this one.
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Adraius

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Re: Faction ships
« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2015, 01:22:24 PM »

As a long-term goal I'd really appreciate this or something like it, it would give more identity and recognition to the main factions.  Currently the only factions that stick out in tactical battles are the more distinct mod factions, and I find that disappointing.  Eventually giving doctrines to fleets from a given faction would be a great addition too.  Ex. Hegemony fleets favor top-heavy fleets with fewer escorts, Hegemony fleets with an Onslaught should frequently have x2 Enforcer escorts, small Tri-tachyon fleets should frequently include packs of 3-4 Wolves, etc.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2015, 01:26:45 PM by Adraius »
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Gothars

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Re: Faction ships
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2015, 01:35:40 PM »

I think we might get (the beginnings of) that in the very short term:

Yeah, it's intentional not to identify any faction from the game too strongly with particular hulls or weapons - except, well. Not with the base types you see in the current version, at least. There might be something interesting happening with giving certain variants more faction identification. I'll say no more on that for now!
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Adraius

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Re: Faction ships
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2015, 03:22:35 PM »

I think we might get (the beginnings of) that in the very short term:

Yeah, it's intentional not to identify any faction from the game too strongly with particular hulls or weapons - except, well. Not with the base types you see in the current version, at least. There might be something interesting happening with giving certain variants more faction identification. I'll say no more on that for now!
This started out as an idle thought, but the more I think this idea over the more I love it.  They would basically be preset groups of ships that have a chance to be dropped into fleets they qualify for as fleets are created, with the rest of the fleet randomly generated as normal.  How hard would this sort of thing to be to mod in?  No offense to Alex and the crew, but at the pace of development, it'll be months at minimum before we see this fleshed out, but I bet modders could do it.
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Ranakastrasz

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Re: Faction ships
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2015, 03:27:31 PM »

While this would be somewhat cool, it would be a huge pain unless a new system for ship varients were added. As is, a few ships have painted varients, and each one takes up an entire codex entry.
It would be far better if all varients (including Degraded) were literally the same ship, rather than having a copied ship with a few alterations.

The standard method of painting for sprites is to have an extra layer underneath the sprite, with the painted spots on the main sprite being transparent to a extent.
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Adraius

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Re: Faction ships
« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2015, 03:35:42 PM »

While this would be somewhat cool, it would be a huge pain unless a new system for ship varients were added. As is, a few ships have painted varients, and each one takes up an entire codex entry.
It would be far better if all varients (including Degraded) were literally the same ship, rather than having a copied ship with a few alterations.

The standard method of painting for sprites is to have an extra layer underneath the sprite, with the painted spots on the main sprite being transparent to a extent.
I'm not a modder, but I don't see why this would make it any harder.  A bit more tedious, maybe.
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Namelessjake

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Re: Faction ships
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2015, 08:11:11 PM »

As is, a few ships have painted varients, and each one takes up an entire codex entry.

The codex listing could only show the base ship hull, and then within that have tabs or something to choose between the variations. This could also be a way to combine the hull and variant codices together, picking variants after picking a hull.
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Ranakastrasz

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Re: Faction ships
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2015, 03:38:08 AM »

As is, a few ships have painted varients, and each one takes up an entire codex entry.

The codex listing could only show the base ship hull, and then within that have tabs or something to choose between the variations. This could also be a way to combine the hull and variant codices together, picking variants after picking a hull.
Thats the idea, yes.
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I think is easy for Simba and Mufasa sing the Circle of Life when they're on the top of the food chain, I bet the zebras hate that song.

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CrashToDesktop

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Re: Faction ships
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2015, 06:37:05 AM »

This does already exist?  There's Hegemony painted Wolves and Lashers.  I think every faction has it's own paint job of the Buffalo.  The Pirates have their own Hound and Mule.  There's going to be more pain jobs, but those are some of the ones that already exist.
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Adraius

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Re: Faction ships
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2015, 01:14:55 PM »

Yes, but don't think the paint jobs currently match with the users - Tri-Tach is just as likely to be flying the red Wolf as blue, and vice versa for the Hegemony.  It's possible I'm wrong on that, though.  But those are what I'd like to see... just far, far more of them; custom paint jobs for the majority of ships, new paint jobs for Luddic Church and Sindrian Diktat-owned ships, and multiple 'common' paint jobs that are used by all factions - for example, the Beholder repaint HELMUT made.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2015, 01:18:43 PM by Adraius »
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Ranakastrasz

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Re: Faction ships
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2015, 01:30:27 PM »

This does already exist?  There's Hegemony painted Wolves and Lashers.  I think every faction has it's own paint job of the Buffalo.  The Pirates have their own Hound and Mule.  There's going to be more pain jobs, but those are some of the ones that already exist.
Technically they exist, but each and every one of them is manually created, presumably manually painted (Would have to see if the files use an extra layer that differs, which would be sane) and hence only a handful of ships which are manually set to be supported are able to be treated like this. The ships are apparently identical, but each variant is an entirely different ship, same as the disabled variants. Hence, each one shows up in the codex seperately, flooding it with yet more ships. Also, as no link between the ships exist, it would be unfeasible to actually paint them or whatever.

While technically functional for, I guess factional differentiation, it is a painfully bad implementation. Its the kind of thing you would do if you were modding another game, and since it didn't support different unit appearances, you had to use two units.

Back when I was modding Warcraft 3, I ran into issues with trying to let buildings construct more than 11 types of structures. I had to add a dummy-transformation ability which was script-supported to replace the builder with another builder with a different set of structures it could build, since the command card limited you to 11 structures, and there were around 40 of them that needed to be available. Hence, the excessive workaround.

Here, this is an actual game, and being developed by someone who actually has full access to all the code, as opposed to data and lesser script manipulation. A lot of things that are hardcoded for modders are not for the actual developers, so such an implementation is somewhat painful to see.


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Make the base varient of each ship.
Add alpha channels (I think that's the term for partly transparent parts of a model) to any ships that should support painting. Allow some method in refitting to alter the color layer underneath, which matches the faction's color(s), the player's color, or allow the player to chose the color as wanted.

Degraded variants should have in-built broken-weapons(Like onslaught, but does nothing) and in-built hull mods(As current), which are part of the varient extention instead of the base ship definition, and possibly a alternate graphics model.

Degraded variants could be visible from an extra tab in the codex. As a varient of the base ship, functionality to support repairing would be possible.
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I think is easy for Simba and Mufasa sing the Circle of Life when they're on the top of the food chain, I bet the zebras hate that song.

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Megas

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Re: Faction ships
« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2015, 02:17:51 PM »

Factions' ships can have other subtle differences.  Pirates' Buffalo has a ballistics mount instead of energy mount.  (This is much better since a lone Vulcan can stop missiles, but most single beam PD cannot.)

It may be interesting if other factions have other differences like one has more armor, another has more speed, another has better flux stats, another has different mount types (like that pirate Buffalo compared to the rest).

It would also be nice if engine flames (and possibly sounds) were colored by faction instead of epoch.  Even Hegemony's orange Wolf has blue flames, and I keep thinking high-tech equals Tri-Tachyon even though the devs do not want "...to identify any faction from the game too strongly with particular hulls or weapons...".

If building our own faction (in-game, not faction mod) is possible in the finished game, I like to see what our designated blue or green Lone Star gets and is capable off.
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Alex

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Re: Faction ships
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2015, 11:01:03 PM »

(@Ranakastrasz: I feel like calling skins a bad implementation of across-the-board factional differentiation is missing the point of skins. They could be used for that, but the main goal is to create versions of hulls with more-than-visual differences. Combining that with factional differentiation - i.e. faction specific skins with ship alterations - is just killing two birds with one stone. Creating an "every faction version of every ship" is very much not the goal here.

Further, the game is aware of which hulls are derived from others (it's not an entirely separate ship definition, but rather a .skin file detailing changes from base), so adjusting how that's displayed in the Codex is not a major obstacle, aside from me not wanting to spend time on it at this point (mainly, because I'm not sure which direction the Codex will ultimately go). Just removing skins from it would be trivial, but adding more UI to view skins for a selected hull, etc, would add up.

Finally, it's possible to combine skins with some other kind of method designed for faction differentiation. They're just different things. As an aside, the decal-based methods for doing that - i.e. rendering a layer under or over the ship - have some issues to work through. They don't tend to look very good, for one - at least, they didn't in our testing - and some approaches don't combine well with some other rendering requirements, such as being able to render ships at partial transparency. Might be worth a revisit at some point, though - but again, just a different thing from skins.

... maybe "skins" is a bad word for it, since it implies primarily visual changes. It's not used anywhere player-facing in-game, iirc, so hopefully it'll mostly only briefly confuse modders :))
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Ranakastrasz

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Re: Faction ships
« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2015, 03:42:27 AM »

Well, since you actually considered all of this, my opinion is probably mostly invalid. Still has some concerns, but hopefully at least some of these problems will be resolved.
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I think is easy for Simba and Mufasa sing the Circle of Life when they're on the top of the food chain, I bet the zebras hate that song.

Cigarettes are a lot like hamsters. Perfectly harmless, until you put one in your mouth and light it on fire