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[Megas]

Currently, Vengeful relations occurs when reputation falls below -75.  The consequences mean the faction hates you forever, with no way (in unmodded game) to regain standing.  It also blocks access to all markets.  Even smuggling is not an option anymore.

What causes reputation to fall below -75?  Currently, if you pursue the enemy while your reputation is below -70.  The -5 reputation afterwards in not bound by the usual -75 cap for normal fighting.

Who would you pursue?  Badly damaged warships from a previous round?  All freighters in a relief fleet because the enemy never deploys civilians in combat, unless forced by pursuit?

Because Vengeful cannot be recovered from, points below -76 are meaningless - the effect between -76 and -100 is the same.


Assuming the consequences of Vengeful relations remain as is, that is point-of-no-return and no trading allowed, what should cause it?

Killing fleeing ships should not, AI of enemy factions does it all the time against each other, and we never see relations at Vengeful with each other.

When fighting (at least in other RPGs), it is a good idea to take no prisoners because survivors may know too much, and the only way to prevent that is to kill everyone.  Also, leaving survivors is a loot and XP tax.  There is a reason why adventures are called murderhobos in classic RPGs.

Vengeful should be earned when you do something so outrageous and big enough to be a major strategic blow to the faction, enough to redraw the map, enough to be a major turning event during the game.  Killing survivors from a fight, or even intercepting relief fleets bound to an enemy should not result in Vengeful; it is war after all, and those acts are probably limited to tactical in scope.  Something strategic, like capturing (or destroying) a major base or homeworld, should earn the enmity of the faction attacked.  For example, Jangala looks like a major Hegemony world.  If I can invade and capture it (then use its resources - hello blueprints and autofactory! - against Hegemony), that should enrage the Hegemony so much that they want me dead above all else.

[CrashToDesktop]

My main gripe with the Vengeful thing is that the AI will ALWAYS pursue you, regardless if the reputation is less than -75 or not.  Even if it's on the brink of it, the AI can pursue you with no consequences, while the player cannot do that without bad things happening.

I agree that the Vengeful status should be given only when something big happens.  However, re-engaging a fleeting fleet is one of those (to give chase to ship once a general retreat is ordered is one thing, but to chase down a fleet after they've disengaged and running with their tail between their legs is another).  To be honest, taking no prisoners SHOULD push the status above Vengeful.  It's a very dirty and terrible thing to do - effectively executing prisoners is something reserved for people in the pits of hell and traitors.  However, leaving survivors should also have it's benefits - perhaps it could reduce the hostility of that faction if your relationship -75 or lower (but won't affect it if you're better than that).

[Megas]

Here is an annoying case that happens enough:  Going after smaller bounty fleets, and they decide to flee.  You cannot pursue them (to collect bounty) because relations are already at -75, and player does not want to lose Pirate markets.  The only way to force them to fight is to Harry multiple times until they decide to fight.

To be honest, taking no prisoners SHOULD push the status above Vengeful.  It's a very dirty and terrible thing to do - effectively executing prisoners is something reserved for people in the pits of hell and traitors.  However, leaving survivors should also have it's benefits - perhaps it could reduce the hostility of that faction if your relationship -75 or lower (but won't affect it if you're better than that).

Why are relations of factions not at Vengeful between each other?  They pursue and annihilate each other without batting an eye.  Plus, we are not executing prisoners (we have not captured them), we are destroying wounded yet still-dangerous combatants (or support ships) on the run.  Also, if an faction lost an entire fleet, all they should know is an enemy ate the fleet.  As for relief fleets, once again, why are factions not at Vengeful when an enemy faction eats the relief fleet?  What makes the player a worse pirate than red pirates or a major faction (like Hegemony) when all aggressors take no prisoners?


P.S.  I would not mind pursuit sending relations to Vengeful if that event happens to be the one that breaks a faction.  Not that pursuit itself cause the reputation drop, but it triggered one of the game-changing events that would warrant Vengeful.  An event like starving a planet and I (or other faction) can take it over (or blow it up) without a hard fight.

[Euqocelbbog]

I think part of the problem is that at the moment there are no means to seize a ship and/or its cargo without killing every single occupant of the ship. Chasing down and destroying civilian ships with hundreds of crew and passengers is clearly warcrime level *** while at the same time letting trade fleets and support ships go unmolested is unrealistic.

Clearly there should be some means of taking ships without massacring the entire crew. Perhaps forcing fleeing ships to surrender by, say getting close to them and doing a chunk of damage or disabling engines would be an option. An overhaul of boarding could be yet another. One idea I have in mind is to have a distinction between military and civilian crew, which could influence the AI of the respective ships. A freighter with a predominantly civilian crew, for example, would be more inclined to surrender to pursuing ships and may not fight against a boarding force without accompanying marines. On the other hand, an Enforcer with a military crew might surrender to pursuers only in the most dire circumstances (i.e. it's surrounded, overloaded, undercrewed, and it's armor is blasted away) and may fight to the last against a boarding party and would be more likely to detonate its own ship to kill boarders.

[Spoorthuzad]

Maybe a vengeful relation with a faction should only be for a while. After all people will cool off if you lay low for a while and it will turn back to hostile.
Lets say every few weeks a relation point gets added if you are vengeful with a faction until you are hostile (if you don't do any bad things to that faction; attack their fleets for example.)
This will solve the problem of not being able to change relationship with vengeful factions and still keep the feature of angering the faction that much that they dont want anything to do with you.

[Gothars]

Mh. I thinks it's good that (if?) the mechanic is deactivated for now, it doesn't feel fair. Beyond that, it's probably a good idea to wait for industry and until the whole game progression is better staked out.

Permanent faction relations don't seem like something you should fixate in the early phase of the game. Once you have made a name for yourself and can take major influence on events, yes, but that state is not really in the game atm.

Another interesting aspect are standings with individuals, which seem like they should be much more prone to influence by early and small scale actions.

[Alex]

(Where it's at right now in the dev build is you can recover from "vengeful", and it's about the same as "hostile" in other respects. You can still trade on the black market if you sneak in, though - that's the same all the way from inhospitable to vengeful, and more viable than in the current release.)

[Thaago]

Vengeful should be a special level of hatred - the kind that makes the faction actively get other people to hunt you down or betray you as well (hiring bounty hunters, imposing penalties to your relationships with other factions, etc). It might even drive factions that were previously at war together as uneasy allies.

But chasing down fleeing fleets shouldn't trigger it in the slightest. During wartime it is not a warcrime to destroy fleeing ships, or to destroy unarmed cargo ships; on the contrary it is a principal strategy and the only sane option. Of course freighters are going to run from warships, but the cargo on board is vital for the enemy's polity; destroying them will end the war faster with less loss of life (for our side, at least). Similarly, if I have forced enemy ships to try and flee, all that means is that I have a momentary, large advantage over enemy combatants. Taking advantage of that saves lives. Historically, most naval combat has been this kind of action, from the age of sail all the way through the world wars.

In SS this whole situation is messed up a bit by the fact that nothing surrenders, ever. If the enemy surrenders then its a whole different story.

[Ranakastrasz]

Heh. They used to surrender, with the older boarding mechanics.

[ValkyriaL]

Yeah, if you autoresolved with overwhelming advantage, their entire fleet would surrender and you could board every single ship in their fleet without a fight.