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Starsector 0.9.1a is out! (05/10/19); Updated the Forum Rules and Guidelines (02/29/20); Blog post: GIF Roundup (04/11/20)

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Megas

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Re: latest versions made game worse
« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2015, 06:00:12 AM »

I usually cannot even have a second battle to get at the survivors because the -5 reputation from that sends reputation below -75 for Vengeful, and that results in permanent ban from markets, which is crippling, or at least irreparably harms your powergaming options.  There is a reason why I post "pursuit is obsolete" in 0.65.
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nomadic_leader

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Re: latest versions made game worse
« Reply #16 on: October 01, 2015, 06:33:21 AM »

So it seems the only way to get some decent loot is to grind supply convoys. Now nearly every battle is two battles. One where you defeat the combat force and the 2nd where you must pursue the cargo ships to get the loot. I don't know about you, but I find the 2nd part boring and unnessecary. It's always the same. Man what kind of fun is it to shoot helpless freighters or tankers in the ass over and over again!

yes it's a byproduct of every fleet being a little icon over HERE, and then in combat you become actual ships over THERE. And because it's all abstracted, you get to pick and choose which ships to "deploy" and then they can have some ships "escape" or something while you fight some other ships. Ok it's part of SS now but it creates these ineluctable gameplay problems that sometimes make me wonder. In a normal game without ghetto-ized combat, you have to do the same thing and then pursue freighters after getting the big threats, but it's less boring since you don't have to exit and reenter combat with all the tedious window dialogs and clicks.
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Schwartz

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Re: latest versions made game worse
« Reply #17 on: October 01, 2015, 07:03:41 AM »

The latest version put many additional systems into the game that add flavour but take away from the pure arcade combat experience by making it expensive. This doesn't mean the game is worse. It just means that there are now actually other parts to the game.

I'm personally amazed at the level-headed response you're getting here considering the tone of your post.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2015, 07:10:16 AM by Schwartz »
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Tartiflette

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Re: latest versions made game worse
« Reply #18 on: October 01, 2015, 07:26:57 AM »

I think murdering a hundred of crewmembers and civilians by attacking a small convoy is a perfect reason to get space-Interpol on your back and get banned from a faction. If anything I wouldn't mind it being the case without pursuing them. What the game lack cruely imo is some form of surrender that avoid needless bloodbaths, with a smaller reputation hit (Instant inhospitable for example) and the option to disengage without opening fire with large fleets.
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The Soldier

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Re: latest versions made game worse
« Reply #19 on: October 01, 2015, 08:15:44 AM »

The latest version put many additional systems into the game that add flavour but take away from the pure arcade combat experience by making it expensive. This doesn't mean the game is worse. It just means that there are now actually other parts to the game.

I'm personally amazed at the level-headed response you're getting here considering the tone of your post.
This community is surprisingly docile.  Might have to do with the simple forum background, heh.
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Megas

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Re: latest versions made game worse
« Reply #20 on: October 01, 2015, 08:17:30 AM »

I admit that I got Starfarer/Starsector mostly for the pure arcade combat experience, with the campaign as an excuse to powerup my ships and facilitate combat.  (I do not play missions anymore because no skills make ships too slow and too weak.)

This is why I loathed CR until it effectively became the new ammo count in the last release.  (It would be nice if high-tech ships cost less CR to deploy now that low-tech and midline ships effectively have more ammo than high-tech.)
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Histidine

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Re: latest versions made game worse
« Reply #21 on: October 02, 2015, 05:46:51 AM »

You took the exciting features out
What features were removed? The only ones that come to mind are relatively minor elements (ballistic ammo, hangars, travel speed).

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The current vanilla game is so worn down like a spaceship beyond repair.
This simile makes no sense that I can discern.

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There is enough high quality faction mods out there with unique feel. Why do you work against them with your own clumsy attempts?
wat

(Also, it's not Alex's obligation to work with mods, quite the opposite)

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harassment
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

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And b/c of that supply-mania, you now have to go through the deployment menu for each and every battle, which is just more useless administration.
You now have (more like "ought") to take 5-15 seconds to think about what ships you want to use, to commit just the right amount of force you need, instead of just hitting "deploy all" and steamrolling everything. SO USELESS. MUCH ADMINISTRATION. VERY BUREAUCRATIC.

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what I can sense is laziness
Laziness by what metric? Perhaps you should present the game(s) you've made, so we know you have a proper benchmark for such things.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2015, 05:54:17 AM by Histidine »
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TJJ

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Re: latest versions made game worse
« Reply #22 on: October 02, 2015, 07:11:35 AM »

I admit that I got Starfarer/Starsector mostly for the pure arcade combat experience
/snip

Same sentiment here; I bought it because of the combat engine.
It's somewhat disappointing that this aspect of the game has seen little change in the past 3.5 years.
I suppose it's a testament to how good the combat engine is, that I still find the game interesting.

That's not to say I've given up on the campaign, just that I can't see what direction it's headed in.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2015, 09:02:21 AM by TJJ »
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Tartiflette

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Re: latest versions made game worse
« Reply #23 on: October 02, 2015, 10:06:43 AM »

This community is surprisingly docile.  Might have to do with the simple forum background, heh.
One answer: Not On Steam (yet)
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Megas

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Re: latest versions made game worse
« Reply #24 on: October 02, 2015, 10:56:50 AM »

Having more time to read and contemplate the OP, here goes:

Factions
So far, whether Alex likes it or not, factions are defined by the ships they use.  I agree that factions are too similar to each other, and it is glaringly obvious if I play Nexerelin and add a mod faction or two such as Blackrock.  Before 0.65, Hegemony and Pirates were low-tech, Tri-Tachyon was high-tech, and the rest were midline.  Now, all standard factions share most ships.  Tri-Tachyon use almost as much midline as high-tech, and they even use the low-tech Lasher.  Independents use everything.  Pirates use (D) ships and a few others.  The remaining factions share the same ships, which is a mix of low-tech and midline, plus the high-tech Wolf.

Reputation
So far, the problem is optimal play requires that you have unlimited access to all markets and merchandise.  For that, you need cooperative relations with all factions except Independents and Pirates.  Independents, due to lack of military market, only require minimum relations of Suspicious.  Pirates will trade as long as relations are not Vengeful.  The only way to get high relations with everyone who matters is to fight Pirates only.  Furthermore, you cannot pursue survivors when relations are below -70 because the -5 from pursuit will send relations to Vengeful, and that means permaban from that faction's market, and you have ruined, I repeat, RUINED your character.  Also, Valhalla is a trap.  Big system with puny markets, and doing anything useful there (except killing named Pirate bounties) will hurt your reputation with one of the factions.

Quest for supplies
The problem with this so far, combined with AI fleeing from large fleets, is it pushes the player into using small and elite fleets (and soloing battles with chain-flagships) for much of the game, if he wants to play optimally.  Combat will yield enough drops if you can solo fleets with a few frigates.  This is most easily achieved with an aggressive Combat and Technology focus.

Boarding is awful because it is too random and your best chance of success for boarding is under 50%.  Chance is low enough that even with save scumming, it is possible to have more than ten failures in a row before you succeed.  Such a worst-case scenario of fight-board-fail-reload will take more than hour.  So far, boarding is only useful for acquiring rare ships at the endgame.

Toll trolls are obnoxious.  For now, the most painless way to deal with them late in the game is to let them start a scan, then run away and take the -3 rep.
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Schwartz

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Re: latest versions made game worse
« Reply #25 on: October 02, 2015, 11:15:33 AM »

Couple of points.

Optimal play for you is not optimal play for everybody. I do not require access to every market just to gimp the system and suck up ships and other stuff. Perfection is utterly boring and grind for its own sake is likewise dull to me. I've never chained flagships or kited exclusively, and the thought of playing the game like this just to be lean on supplies and minimize risks puts me to sleep, honestly. Fleet action is where it's at.

The problem is that SS is currently in a transitional phase. The universe has had flavour added, but at the core is still profit. Gaining XP, gaining money, gaining ships and winning fights. Soon we should have other motivators, and the landscape will change. But: Some mechanics currently in place need tweaking, yes.

The balance of relation boosts and relation hits is too tight and too restrictive. Docking with a remote pirate base should not become news that travels all through the system. The player is a free agent, and relation hits for something as insubstantial as a bit of trading feel petty. Since profit soon entails picking fights with juicier targets - and faction targets are juicy - the penalties will come soon enough.

Boarding needs an overhaul too. Supplies are still a little too tight. Some energy weapons are still underpowered. I don't play vanilla SS much anymore, so I don't feel some of these shortcomings in play.
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Megas

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Re: latest versions made game worse
« Reply #26 on: October 02, 2015, 12:21:34 PM »

You do want maximum market access if you want to purchase the most rare weapons and ships.  If you want to powerlevel, you also want to be able to visit markets to sell your merchandise.  You cannot participate in commodity runs if you are banned from markets, after all.

Fleet action is nice, and I deploy all in endgame when level is over 50.  Deploy all is good as it speeds up combat and enables more chain-battling by enabling 50% CR back on standing down.  More ships eat more supplies, and it is a good idea to have stockpiles everywhere.  For players who are struggling with having enough supplies, playing lean with small elite fleets may be the way to make do with poor access to supplies.
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Adraius

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Re: latest versions made game worse
« Reply #27 on: October 02, 2015, 01:36:35 PM »

Factions
So far, whether Alex likes it or not, factions are defined by the ships they use.  I agree that factions are too similar to each other, and it is glaringly obvious if I play Nexerelin and add a mod faction or two such as Blackrock.  Before 0.65, Hegemony and Pirates were low-tech, Tri-Tachyon was high-tech, and the rest were midline.  Now, all standard factions share most ships.  Tri-Tachyon use almost as much midline as high-tech, and they even use the low-tech Lasher.  Independents use everything.  Pirates use (D) ships and a few others.  The remaining factions share the same ships, which is a mix of low-tech and midline, plus the high-tech Wolf.
I'm staying largely out of this, but I want to note this bit, which really resonated with my impressions of the factions as a new player.  In combat, all the core game factions feel pretty samey.  I'm not in favor of each faction having a completely different set of ships, but I think each one should have have a 'core' ship or two in each size category that is either exclusive to them or appears much more prominently in their fleets than in others.  Thr bias towards high tech in Tri-Tach and low-tech in Hegemony fleets isn't enough right now - they need ships that are 'theirs' (like their capitals).

Actually, it feels strange lore-wise that most of the new factions (from mods) have totally unique ship sets.  They all have justifications for this, as speciality ship yards or long-lost asteroid colonies or whatever, but it feels like those sort of factions should be the exception and factions like the Interstellar Imperium and Tiandong Heavy Industries (who use modified versions of standard designs) should be the norm.  This is not to knock on existing mods, but I hope to see future content for the core game that goes the route of Interstellar Imperium, etc.
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The Soldier

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Re: latest versions made game worse
« Reply #28 on: October 02, 2015, 02:09:18 PM »

For players who are struggling with having enough supplies, playing lean with small elite fleets may be the way to make do with poor access to supplies.
For once, this seems like a bit of advice everyone can accept, heh.  I usually stick like that my first few in-game months, running with maybe 3 or 4 frigates (and getting logistics for the crew EXP modifiers, to balance out the pretty high casualty rates frigates can have - but that's not for everyone) before I start getting upgrades.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2015, 02:11:21 PM by The Soldier »
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I am officially an epoch.
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Note: please sacrifice your goats responsibly, look up the proper pronunciation of Alex's name. We wouldn't want some other project receiving mystic power.

Creepin

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Re: latest versions made game worse
« Reply #29 on: October 02, 2015, 02:13:25 PM »

You now have (more like "ought") to take 5-15 seconds to think about what ships you want to use, to commit just the right amount of force you need, instead of just hitting "deploy all" and steamrolling everything. SO USELESS. MUCH ADMINISTRATION. VERY BUREAUCRATIC.
Yes, that is the problem. What I bought, and what I loved, was quite another game. Newer releases removed my pure spinal fan of growing big, fielding 4 Onslaughts eventually and bloody shred them buggers to pieces by the sheer awesomeness of the iron fist. Without ability to eventually steamroll everything that moves into the dirt there's left pretty much nothing to aspire for in unmodded game.

Laziness by what metric? Perhaps you should present the game(s) you've made, so we know you have a proper benchmark for such things.
Really, has it comes down to such a lame argument? Truly, pathetic.
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