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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: The Trouble With Greebles  (Read 35519 times)

miro

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Re: The Trouble With Greebles
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2015, 06:34:00 PM »

I think that the new Eagle looks pretty wicked. The main advantage of the big smooth hull is that when it's damaged, it actually looks scoured out and pitted. The same damage on a greebly ship sort of blends in with the noise.
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Megas

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Re: The Trouble With Greebles
« Reply #16 on: July 26, 2015, 06:43:11 PM »

I like Eagle #2 the least.  It looks like someone took Eagle #1 and blurred it, like someone wanted to convert it to a Heron but failed, giving it a confused art style.  Eagle #3 has removed (most of) the ugly greebles, and now it looks smooth and sleek.  It appears more brown-ish and more low-tech, but with high-tech smoothness.  (If it was bluish, it could pass as high-tech if it lost the ballistics).
« Last Edit: July 26, 2015, 06:44:59 PM by Megas »
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DatonKallandor

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Re: The Trouble With Greebles
« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2015, 04:19:59 AM »

Eagle 2 is the best one. The low greeble Eagle is just flat and boring looking. Kind of like the new small ship in the teaser screenshot - that thing looks incredibly generic. Doesn't even seem to fit into the game's overall aesthetic. Especially compared to the most "basic" current Starsector ships, the Shuttles, this new one is still not competing.
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Histidine

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Re: The Trouble With Greebles
« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2015, 04:30:48 AM »

Not-an-artist 2 cents:

Like some of the others here, I think Eagle #2 strikes the best balance with the detail level, and #3 looks like it should be painted blue and made a high-tech ship.

New shuttle looks... like it doesn't fit somehow. Not with the new ships (well Eagle #3 at least) nor the old ones, the design with the little windows and the thin colored lines are just too different from the stuff we currently have in the game.
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HELMUT

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Re: The Trouble With Greebles
« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2015, 05:27:11 AM »

the design with the little windows and the thin colored lines are just too different from the stuff we currently have in the game.

Eh, the Venture, Apogee, Shepherd and Gemini are like that too. I think the new Shuttle feel weird because just like the new Eagle, we're not used to see some "un-greebled" ship with a mid-tech paintjob. To be honest i'd rather wait for a clean png to judge the overall sprite, that screenshot doesn't do it justice.

My only concern about this ship is its purpose. We already have the Mercury and the Hermes as light-freighters. What can that thing do more to make it interesting? With only three small mounts, its use on the battlefield will be severely limited. So what? A sensor frigate thingy?
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Megas

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Re: The Trouble With Greebles
« Reply #20 on: July 27, 2015, 05:39:35 AM »

The new ship appears to have two Salamanders and maybe a Vulcan.  Unless those two hardpoints are universal, it appears to be a cheap missile ship.

EDIT:  I like "un-greebled".
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Protonus

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Re: The Trouble With Greebles
« Reply #21 on: July 27, 2015, 06:10:49 AM »

I never thought the Eagle class was that very clunky by detail on its first release.

Compared to its previous ones, I personally believe the latest design draws a lot closer to what the Onslaught resembles, that cold, smooth sheen with brown shading makes the most out of it.

For those who want to know my thought process:
Spoiler
I do think the changes of smoother overlays to the hull make up the immersion of ships being vacuum worthy, but as far as Sci-fi goes, it may not be a case. Most starships from old media are quite detailed with the rustic piping and gruesome mechanisms installed, which by far are quite interesting to feel by it. Meaning that it is both nostalgic and memorable. A special mention of the Bebop from Cowboy Bebop for its intricate machinery is simply awe-inspiring.

Most shiny ships by modern time may look cool, with the incredible sheen and decent lacquer but knowingly everything else were already shiny in the future, it would get rather old quickly. Sure I would ride the Liset in Warframe anytime, but I usually forgotten its figure in the next few minutes from playing since I spent more time as a shiny character in the process.

But in the perspective in this game, I would say the ships be in between with the new greebles and of 14's, as the focus of the game are the ships and always be ships. As a handful of components should suffice the needs for the looks of the ship. I may not be able to craft well when it comes to placing details on my own but I do believe ships with a standard "Bulkhead, Turrets, Bridge and Engine" asset does feel a little bit repetitive regardless of shaping of the object. So usually, we may want a ship that has its personality while remaining functional, stable and gameplay worthy, ships like the Conquest served that purpose, and with its large pneumatic pipes gave it a feel that it begs to be rotated and provide tremendous thrust towards the enemy front. The Paragon may serve the role too, but with less detail it felt like an alien ship that can wipe out entire fleets on its own.
[close]

So above all, I like the new greeble design, looks fantastic and well-made but it still needs to be felt by the players themselves before deciding which ship design goes out better than the other.

...

Well, I lost my words by now, so I did something.
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a.c.macauley

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Re: The Trouble With Greebles
« Reply #22 on: July 27, 2015, 07:29:24 AM »

"Greeble", my new word for the day and I didn't even have to buy a calendar, nice. I like the latest Eagle, I don't think limiting said greebles diminishes the scale of the ship, if anything getting rid of some of the fine details and adding the "bulbous" turrets does something even better, it adds a sense of depth that wasn't there before.

Edit: Would love to see it with a few damage decals stuck on and flight of flighters skimming past, that's the final test.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2015, 07:31:48 AM by a.c.macauley »
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selkathguy

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Re: The Trouble With Greebles
« Reply #23 on: July 27, 2015, 09:04:49 AM »

I like greebles, but the eagle and a few others were almost excessive and had visual noise that actually made it difficult to discern the amount of damage without looking at the readout on the ui.  This is what you said, and I think the new eagle looks pretty cool and accentuates the damage that the player can see so thats awesome.

However, not every ship needs to be this way.  Some more professional, manufactured ship designs could be more rounded and smooth, have custom molded/rolled plates for their features, and be generally on the same level of finish as the new Eagle.  Other ships could be thrown together by independent shipyards / space mechanics / faction with limited resources, and could be more greebly since they lack the resources to nicely plate over every aspect of the design or "design".  I would say don't be afraid of a little visual discord sometimes not neatly showing discrete differences or statuses, as it is a problem that would actually be experienced based on the situation and not due to any kind of "bad art design".

A lack of information can be just as powerful as information when it comes to immersion and building atmosphere I think.

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Gothars

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Re: The Trouble With Greebles
« Reply #24 on: July 27, 2015, 09:29:40 AM »

I like the new eagle best, especially those little domes encircling the weapon mounts. Nice :) Will the Eagle's relatives (Falcon, Heron, maybe Conquest) be aligned with that look, or at least get the same color scheme?

The new shuttle thingy suffers quite a bit from the clashing contrast between its smooth curves and the angular side weapons. A case where they might look much better under the sprite?

(Also, why isn't the blogpost titled "Grief with Greebles"? Or "Greeble-Greed"?   ;))


« Last Edit: July 27, 2015, 09:48:28 AM by Gothars »
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LazyWizard

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Re: The Trouble With Greebles
« Reply #25 on: July 27, 2015, 10:50:50 AM »

(Also, why isn't the blogpost titled "Grief with Greebles"? Or "Greeble-Greed"?   ;))

*cough* ;)
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Ahne

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Re: The Trouble With Greebles
« Reply #26 on: July 27, 2015, 11:02:05 AM »

too much t(g)reebles bad or good , you are so right lazywizard haha



halp me i like the new and the old eagle!
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xenoargh

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Re: The Trouble With Greebles
« Reply #27 on: July 27, 2015, 04:27:35 PM »

Honestly, I feel like the current iteration went too far; you're at the, "might as well start over again" stage with that low-frequency approach.  I really like how you're attempting to apply Jansen's ideas- but don't forget how much emphasis he puts on form following function, too.  That's something where in the designs where function is clear (like the tanker) it really works; where I think that things are harder is on some of the warships, where the functional concepts are not very clear.

But let's talk about the noise ratios first.  For example, the gun positions, especially the front ones, look really vastly more noisy against the smooth plates, which I think is distracting and doesn't work well (I didn't think it worked well on the Tri-Tach stuff, either).  That's a pretty easy fix; just reduce their noise a bit, work to the palette and smooth things out.  But it's what I saw immediately and it pulls my eyes away from the main show.

But the biggest critique I'd give is that somewhere during this redesign, the new Eagle really lost its sense of scale.  It no longer really feels like a big Cruiser, a massive, menacing wedge (with surprising maneuverability).  The greebles helped, in the sense that they created a sense of function, even if they weren't really contributing much; when it's this smoothed out, the lack of functional meaning is clearer.  A few areas of high-frequency, noisy detail or some functional areas in amongst those smooth surfaces could really help that. 

The shuttle doesn't feel nearly so out-of-scale, because all that smoothness is compressed into a relatively small area, so it's not as obvious and the smooth is balanced.  Even there, I feel like a panel line or two might get it to feel right.

There is also the major problem of losing the aesthetics that made each Faction distinctive, insofar as they've ever been differentiated; that high-frequency look was largely defining for early Independent / Midline ships, with their dull monotones, whereas Low Tech has always felt a little more organic and open and High Tech has always been smoother (well, other than a few outlier designs that look like they're alien tech). 

This is one of SS's major areas where I still think it could be improved; visual themes that stay consistent across a Faction make them iconic and are helpful in terms of feel and as a marketing device.

I also thought that the comment about the Onslaught was interesting, in terms of understanding where you come from, design-wise.  I've never felt that the Eagle was "related" to the Onslaught, visually (although that may have been true early on).  They're both vaguely wedge-shaped, but none of their incarnations have really had much in common, design-wise.  The Eagle and Falcon are clearly relatives, but bore more of a relationship with the Conquest, in most respects, both palette-wise and in terms of effect and specific patterns of greebles; the Onslaught's primary visual motif is that the big heights and overlapping armor plates, along with the bird-like rear section, give it a very organic feel, whereas the Eagle has always come across as a functional machine.

Anyhow, I apologize if any of this isn't what you wanted to read; figuring out what to transition and why is a very difficult choice sometimes when working on projects like this, especially where what you're doing as an artist and how you approach art has changed considerably over time.
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David

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Re: The Trouble With Greebles
« Reply #28 on: July 27, 2015, 10:06:07 PM »

Incoming reply broadside!

Also that new frig is super retro looking. Is it a shuttle or what?

I'm kinda ambivalent regarding the new frigate though, it looks a bit too much like a fat space shuttle, which is a pretty meh spaceship shape.

You guys are doing rather well with reading into its in-fiction role.

As Cycerin said, that new shuttle-thing looks straight out from some 90's Shmup. That's pretty cool.

I'm not sure about the Eagle MK.III. Before you could clearly place him in the mid-tech family with the Hammerhead, Conquest etc. But now? It feel more like a semi-high-tech D-variant, a bit like the Odyssey. I'll still gladly take it but i'll probably miss the MK.II. I hope you'll eventually try to "smooth-it-up" other ships like the Venture or the Apogee in the future.

By the way, is it possible to have a png of that old web page layout? So many pipes! And rails and wires and tubes and... For someone that loves the "flying oil refinery" style, this is a kitbashing wet dream.

It's funny, the new frigate is inspired very directly by the shape of a "generic spaceship" used in some of the icons I drew years ago for Starsector. I was looking at the icons again and thought 'I want to draw that ship!'. See here:



As for the greebles, well, if you insist. It's attached to this post.

The issue is that the "greebles" as you call them caused there to be a sort of scale to the ships. A largeness personified by all the multitude of tiny pieces making them up. Even small ships felt large due to all the interlocking plates and pieces. Not only does getting rid of them make the ships themselves (in my opinion) look substantially worse, but also serves to remove the uniqueness of the ships. The ships don't look as unique anymore, they look more like things drawn by committee than by an inspired artist.

I don't expect to change your mind, but since you have been developing the same game over the course of 5 years and made the same amount of progress a team of 4 could do in as many months, I don't see you changing much of anything let alone your own mind.

First: I'm not sure what you hope to accomplish by insulting me. I don't appreciate it.

Anyway, what's interesting here is that the numbers you suggest - four workers times four months, full time - are fairly close (given a generous degree of error) to the actual number of hours I've been able to work on Starsector art over the course of the project. Though from my experience in leading a four person art team there is a management and a "get everyone to work in a similar style" cost that you're likely not accounting for.

I could definitely make you a space game with my four person team in very little time, but it wouldn't be nearly as considered as Starsector.


My only concern about this ship is its purpose. We already have the Mercury and the Hermes as light-freighters. What can that thing do more to make it interesting? With only three small mounts, its use on the battlefield will be severely limited. So what? A sensor frigate thingy?

The other two shuttles were indeed a baseline, but you will find that the new one handles a *lot* differently, and really fills a different role. Especially the Luddic Path variant, heh heh...

*cough* ;)

Hah, I'm glad someone got it!

There is also the major problem of losing the aesthetics that made each Faction distinctive, insofar as they've ever been differentiated; that high-frequency look was largely defining for early Independent / Midline ships, with their dull monotones, whereas Low Tech has always felt a little more organic and open and High Tech has always been smoother (well, other than a few outlier designs that look like they're alien tech). 

This is one of SS's major areas where I still think it could be improved; visual themes that stay consistent across a Faction make them iconic and are helpful in terms of feel and as a marketing device.

There is a key line in the post that I think applies to the point you raise: "The impetus for this revision is, really, driven by a desire to create some ‘skin’ variants. And doing so was bloody impossible with all those greebles mucking things up!"

Hmm! Hmmm.

Anyone, there's an overall point I think bears stating really explicitly: I love greebly spaceships. That was my starting place going into writing the post, and perhaps I didn't state that fact strongly enough. What was interesting to me as an artist is questioning my (burning, passionate) love for greebles and asking of myself why they were in the design, what do they serve, how do they justify their existence, and what happens when I restrain myself a little from that indulgence. It's a challenge to myself, ya'know?



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Dri

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Re: The Trouble With Greebles
« Reply #29 on: July 27, 2015, 11:14:06 PM »

I'm fine with the new Eagle, I just don't like the brown tint its taken on - almost looks like rust, which is fine on low-tech ships but not on something higher tech. O_o
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