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Author Topic: please remove the CR set.etc  (Read 7064 times)

dkcat

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please remove the CR set.etc
« on: May 20, 2015, 08:28:31 PM »

From the begining most player are pure fighter,we dont care about trade or anything else.We just wanna cool fight and get stronger through fight.
But the CR system makes us very unhappy,cause we cant fight on like befor,yeh befor V6.0.So now many player would rather play V054.

til now,I still cant see whats the CR's meaning to our players,just make us cant fight on happily?

If sf becomes sc and wanna makes trader,eliminate fighter then go on,we fighters just have to leave :(
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btw in the option "turn to cursor" and usual accelerate game speed we must always press shift,can we just press one time,and when we need  we press one time again to turn back?
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there was a game SPAZ I think most ones know,so can we give our ships' amor a choice to put on which kind.
and the weapon,shield,engin we can make choice
when our tech level goes up,we can have more powerful gears
i think this will make this game more interesting-------not make us all to be boring traders,Is this a game of fighter or trader?
« Last Edit: May 20, 2015, 08:36:34 PM by dkcat »
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celestis

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Re: please remove the CR set.etc
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2015, 02:37:22 AM »

Well, CR is the thing that can easily be modded. If you want just to fight you can minimize the CR drop per deployment and raise repair speed, that is not a big problem at all.
The fact that some people don't enjoy trade and "realistic" fleet behavior doesn't mean that there are no others.
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nomadic_leader

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Re: please remove the CR set.etc
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2015, 04:38:51 AM »

From the begining most player are pure fighter,we dont care about trade or anything else.

Citations please.

I like all the other stuff more than the combat, since the combat is always in the exact same arena, with the exact same goals (kill everything) so it's kind of dull now compared to the cool stuff being added to campaign.

I agree though that the CR is too much an abstraction for balance; it's confusing and arcane and a complicated way to balance the problem of... kiting or something. I guess.  Like Megas or someone else suggested, it should just be folded into hull strength and general ship health somehow.

It's "unrealistic" since in real life battles can last for days/hours. Ships and weapons aren't made of fragile meringue that wilts in minutes. Everytime I see a reference to CR in the game this realization distracts me from the immersion, and reminds me of some complicated board game mechanic.

The old versions without CR I didn't play though, so I don't know exactly how bad the problems were.
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Creepin

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Re: please remove the CR set.etc
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2015, 05:24:42 AM »

Without necessarily agreeing with OP on the rest of his case (though pre-CR versions was sure fun, CR rarely hurts my desired game style), I do wholeheartedly agree that current implementation of game speed acceleration is painfully bad. And I mean it literally: after an hour of play my left little finger is actually hurting from keeping LShift pressed for 95% of the time spent on global map. Could we actually have it implemented as on/off switch please?
« Last Edit: May 21, 2015, 05:39:42 AM by Creepin »
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StarSchulz

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Re: please remove the CR set.etc
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2015, 12:22:04 PM »

  Think of it this way, during combat you wont have time to carry out the logistics necessary to keep a ship fully combat ready. all the crew will have moved to combat posts, be bracing for impact, or cowering in the escape pods. And they probably will have bolted down anything that could go flying should the helmsman make a sharp turn, so someone doesn't get pancaked against a wall with the cargo flying everywhere. On smaller ships that have less crew this is even more true, they might not even have the cargo space to repair/rearm during a battle, and normally would require assistance from a carrier or freighter in its efforts to repair. Capital ships have large cargo bays, large crews, and are probably in a good position to keep things working properly all the time, therefore the non existent CR timer.

  CR is a stat also needed to keep things balanced, before it was implemented a single frigate could pretty much take on an infinite onslaught of... onslaughts even multiple at a time because it could fight forever. I couldn't imagine what it would be like in a cramped frigate accelerating and decelerating, it would probably take a toll on the crew.

  Ever see any star trek, or battlestar galatica? When those massive ships get hit the whole thing shakes. now imagine that in a small ship over and over and over for hours. if the headache didn't kill the guy driving, you would probably get shot to death, or the thing would tear itself apart.

  And battles in real life last for hours / days because of the nature of the fighting. we mostly don't see close range combat anymore, ships in WWII usually fought from a long distance from their target. In starsector, if both sides were carriers with pilums and fighters/bombers, fights would last a long time. why risk your expensive carrier in a close range broadside engagement with a cruiser?

  But if you really don't like it, with a little bit of know-how you could probably disable CR entirely, by removing the timers on frigates/destroyers.


Just my thoughts on the matter, [ unpopular opinion warning ] i actually like CR and think it brings a lot to this game.


   In SPAZ, ships had easily modifiable armor, engines, and shields. In this game, It doesn't happen in quite the same way but the idea is still there. there are 3 main types of ships, the low, medium, and high tech ships. Low tech ships have more armor and use mostly ballistic weaponry ( think cannons in SPAZ ) high tech ships have less armor and use more energy weapons ( like beam emitters ) and medium tech ships are somewhere in the middle with armor and have weapon mounts of both kinds.
  With the skill tree and the fittings you can unlock there, you can turn even a low tech ship into a fast, maneuverable monster or a high tech ship into a close range brawler with armor to back it up should its shields fall. The ships are actually pretty versatile, at least the way i play the game.
- an example of this being i can turn the conquest ( a fairly maneuverable battlecruiser ) into a very long range sniper with heavy maulers and Mjolnir cannons, something as maneuverable as a frigate, or a ramming, torpedo-ing explosive suicide monster.


I actually dislike piloting the low tech ships myself, but i find the Enforcer useful in my fleet as a PD support ship to back up whatever ship i am flying with PD refitted for more offensive power.

... I think you can tell i absolutely love this game.


 
« Last Edit: May 21, 2015, 12:36:56 PM by StarSchulz »
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Schwartz

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Re: please remove the CR set.etc
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2015, 01:24:19 PM »

First of all: Please don't make blanket statements about what the community at large wants or doesn't want.

I don't mind CR. It does the job fine right now. It could be better. Tying yet more stats into CR such as hull points strikes me as completely backwards. I'd rather see CR broken up into several (meaningful) stats. Operational timers, replacement chassis, crew level and 'what's left of CR'.

It's very rare that a lack of CR makes a meaningful appearance in-game, and it's usually never premediated. I either screw up and get into a fight when I shouldn't, or I run into an enemy that - almost randomly - will have lowered CR and damaged ships. Even more rare that I actually watch enemies fight and then pick one off in the knowlege that he'll be weakened. This can be done, I just don't seem to be in that situation often.

However CR gives us plenty of periods where we're forced to sit back and recharge. I don't mind the downtime, but it could be cut down a little by a recharge multiplier if you're sitting still, for example. You aren't 'not playing the game' while you recover. Those parts belong in the game, and it is a balancing act between fun and realism.
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Nanao-kun

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Re: please remove the CR set.etc
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2015, 07:26:00 PM »

I'm perfectly fine with CR.
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Histidine

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Re: please remove the CR set.etc
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2015, 05:27:10 AM »

There's still plenty of fighting in this game and it will likely be so forever.

Anyway, AFAIK removing CR from your local copy is just a matter of deleting or replacing 2-3 .csv columns.
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Flare

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Re: please remove the CR set.etc
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2015, 05:48:35 AM »

I think a little bit needs to be done with CR on the presentation side and what it's about. Marketing it under the phrase strategic stamina might help a little bit.
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Debido

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Re: please remove the CR set.etc
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2015, 07:23:53 PM »

Quote
please remove the CR set.etc

No. It's good for the overall game. If you like you can mod it out of your local game.
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nomadic_leader

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Re: please remove the CR set.etc
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2015, 08:16:40 AM »

Quote
please remove the CR set.etc

No. It's good for the overall game. If you like you can mod it out of your local game.


Better it be rebranded as "ship battery/energy level" or something less confusing and mysterious. While it's credible that ships can run out of ammo, energy etc quickly, I just don't believe that somehow these high tech things start falling apart and the crew frazzling after merely 5 minutes of battle. So it's just a like an intrusive little sign being waved around that says "this is a game! this is a mechanic added purely for balance, that makes no sense thematically!"

The peak performance timers and the way they do or do not tick depending on what kind of enemy ships are nearby is just unacceptably opaque and obtuse. There has got to be a better way to solve these problems. Again it's just so gamey, like bishops moving diagonally.

What? A ship is sitting there next to a hostile small ship doing nothing, and nothing happens. But if it's sitting next to a big ship doing nothing, it starts melting like butter after 5 mins. I just can't buy it.

If you're worried about little ships kiting big ships or something (that is the problem, right?), maybe rethink unlimited ammo or change ammo ratios on different launcher sizes, or give bigger ships weapons that can more easily knock out small ships quickly. Or if everything's going to have unlimited ammo just reduce the ships "energy levels" each time it fires so small ships can't go on kiting forever.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2015, 08:23:12 AM by nomadic_leader »
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Axiom

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Re: please remove the CR set.etc
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2015, 09:42:26 AM »


What? A ship is sitting there next to a hostile small ship doing nothing, and nothing happens. But if it's sitting next to a big ship doing nothing, it starts melting like butter after 5 mins. I just can't buy it.


Didn't you know all the big ships sport level 5 corona's of pure awesome?
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Midnight Kitsune

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Re: please remove the CR set.etc
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2015, 10:12:33 AM »

What? A ship is sitting there next to a hostile small ship doing nothing, and nothing happens. But if it's sitting next to a big ship doing nothing, it starts melting like butter after 5 mins. I just can't buy it.
Three ways that I can think of to explain this: Electronic Warfare (bigger ships can handle more powerful or numerous EW attacks) Moral boost (as CR IS heavily based around crew and their level) or a combo of the two
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TheBawkHawk

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Re: please remove the CR set.etc
« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2015, 03:24:20 PM »

What? A ship is sitting there next to a hostile small ship doing nothing, and nothing happens. But if it's sitting next to a big ship doing nothing, it starts melting like butter after 5 mins. I just can't buy it.
Three ways that I can think of to explain this: Electronic Warfare (bigger ships can handle more powerful or numerous EW attacks) Moral boost (as CR IS heavily based around crew and their level) or a combo of the two

I've got one more.

If you're a crewman on a destroyer and you're fighting a frigate, you probably wouldn't worry about it too much and not work the ship as hard. Now, replace that frigate with a battleship. You're probably putting everything into high gear and trying to get every last ounce of performance out of your ship. Understandably that would put much more of a strain on the ship. That's how I see it at least.
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nomadic_leader

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Re: please remove the CR set.etc
« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2015, 04:46:47 AM »

Whatever guys that's all just strained justifications; I should hire you to come up with excuses for the star wars prequels too.

Even if your frigate is just sitting there not fighting the big ship, not doing anything, the peak performance timer still ticks just because the big ship is near. This is what is gamey.

Why not just have a miniscule amount of CR/energy deplete whenever  the ship fires a weapon, uses a ship system, or heck even moves perhaps-- that would keep it from kiting, and it would feel less cheap. There's ways to solve these problems that just make sense and are simple to understand; and there's ways that require complex mechanics in the game, and outlandish justifications from a lore perspective.

Though I gotta admit I seldom get confounded by CR from a gameplay perspective, it's more just an immersion breaker.
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