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Author Topic: Want more ships specializing in missiles  (Read 13388 times)

DeltaV_11.2

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Re: Want more ships specializing in missiles
« Reply #30 on: April 22, 2015, 05:33:17 PM »

Err no? It should be compared against average ships of the same class. A ship able to kill any ships that don't have a loadout specifically tuned to counter it is the definition of overpowered. And even if you do find a loadout that can survive your missile ship, if it can't counter attack it's useless.
Specialists will generally overpower generalists if they're allowed to stay in their specialization. Otherwise, specializing would have no rewards. If you're mounting(or a hull is such that it's only possible to mount) only long-range missiles and hull mods that buff them, then by all rights you should overpower a fleet that doesn't have a counter to that. The danger is that a fleet that does have counters available to it will wipe the floor with you. A missile heavy fleet pays for the better range of missiles in that if its opponent has sufficient PD coverage, the missile fleet's firepower is neutered.

Say Omens + Astral + Bombers/Attack Fighters. The Omens are fairly safe against missile fire and can draw fire away from or cover the Astral, while the fighters can't be hit by the missile fleet almost at all and should be able to wreck the launching ships. What's better is that this fleet is more broadly applicable- it's basically a typical TT carrier fleet, and can fight plenty of things other than missile fleets.

EDIT: Went and tried it with a Paragon. 1 Paragon can take around 15-18 pilums worth of missiles and remain flux-neutral(w/o fort shield). The PD will shoot down up to around 12 launchers worth. So a ship needs to have more than 1 med missile launcher per 1.5 DP before it starts to become capable of killing the Paragon with missiles. No, the Paragon isn't using all PD weapons- still has 4 heavy blasters and 2 Autopulse Lasers.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2015, 06:33:08 PM by DeltaV_11.2 »
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Unfolder

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Re: Want more ships specializing in missiles
« Reply #31 on: April 22, 2015, 08:49:44 PM »

Unrelated, but, I would like to again raise the point that all missiles should regenerate (hue hue hue)

Or at least harpoons. It seems especially apparent in SS+, when things like grapeshot regenerate but harpoons don't. Grapeshot is crazy deadly against larger ships when used properly, basically behaves like a burst regenerating reaper at point blank; try sticking two grapeshots on the end of the shadowyards destroyer and ramming enemy destroyers...POP
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Hari Seldon

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Re: Want more ships specializing in missiles
« Reply #32 on: April 25, 2015, 06:25:37 AM »

I think that the game could handle a missile ship.  For example, the missile ship could have lots of missiles and good PD but pretty much no other weapons or weak shields/armor, so if you get in close range to it you can kill it no problem.  So long as you dodge or shoot down its missiles you could get into close range.  But what if they have lots of missile ships so they have too many missiles to handle?  Maybe bombers could kill them because missiles do not target strike craft.
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SafariJohn

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Re: Want more ships specializing in missiles
« Reply #33 on: April 25, 2015, 06:45:05 AM »

Maybe bombers could kill them because missiles do not target strike craft.

Missiles target fighters.
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Linnis

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Re: Want more ships specializing in missiles
« Reply #34 on: April 25, 2015, 09:29:30 AM »

New ship ability: Reload missile ammo.
 8)
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Thaago

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Re: Want more ships specializing in missiles
« Reply #35 on: April 25, 2015, 10:12:28 AM »

I think that the game could handle a missile ship.  For example, the missile ship could have lots of missiles and good PD but pretty much no other weapons or weak shields/armor, so if you get in close range to it you can kill it no problem.  So long as you dodge or shoot down its missiles you could get into close range.  But what if they have lots of missile ships so they have too many missiles to handle?  Maybe bombers could kill them because missiles do not target strike craft.

Got me thinking: Because missiles are 0 flux weapons, any ship that uses them as primary armament should have absolute crap for flux statistics to be balanced. Otherwise, ignore PD and put on assault weapons in the small slots and have a super ship. If they have crap flux stats, then they are vulnerable to any direct fire ship that has excellent PD or high speed.

I think the game can handle missile ships just fine. What it can't handle are long range spam missiles that lack serious drawbacks, missiles that raise flux when they don't hit the shields, and missile ships that have enough flux statistics to ALSO be gunships.
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Megas

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Re: Want more ships specializing in missiles
« Reply #36 on: April 25, 2015, 10:27:14 AM »

Quote
Got me thinking: Because missiles are 0 flux weapons, any ship that uses them as primary armament should have absolute crap for flux statistics to be balanced.
That motivated me for trying an all Atropos configuration on the Mercury a year or so ago, before 0.65.  If I do not have enough OP to turn the Mercury into a IR Pulse Laser gunship, and I will run out of ammo for ballistics, I might as well use missiles, and Atropos Mercury was cheap but effective flagship.  Required max Missile Specialization (for Atropos to be fast enough) to work, but it killed a few ships quickly for only 0.5 Logistics and 3 FP - not bad for a cheap, disposable ship.
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CopperCoyote

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Re: Want more ships specializing in missiles
« Reply #37 on: April 25, 2015, 12:21:56 PM »

Maybe bombers could kill them because missiles do not target strike craft.

Missiles target fighters.

I use missiles to ruin fighters frequently, but for some reason the AI wont fire non-swarmers at incoming fighters intentionally. For non-regenerating missiles this is probably good, but salamanders and pilums are good candidates to stop fighters from filling your flux. The missiles will however target them if their first target dies before they hit.


I'd like more missile ships in the game. I usually gravitate towards ships that have lots of missile mounts because I really like the missiles in this game. I guess the biggest reason not to is due to pilum spam, but is that the only case against it? What if we had other missiles spammed? I haven't fought the testing onslaught with all the harpoons. Is it tougher than a regular onslaught?

In the JunkPirates mod there is a little frigate that has 2 medium mounts called the hammer. It has very bad stats though and dies like flies to a bored cat. If i load it up with pilums and keep it out of the fray i do fantastically, but if i give it harpoons or salamanders it's like a risky vigilance. If i give it anihilators it ends up not firing because faster ships block its shots. I never did manage to get enough of them to make a good test of spamming other flavors of missiles, but i'm not sure it'd be problematic.
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Megas

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Re: Want more ships specializing in missiles
« Reply #38 on: April 25, 2015, 01:01:01 PM »

Harpoon swarm will devastate a ship targeted for elimination... up to three times.  After that, you are spent.  If I plan to do that, I much rather use Reapers or Annihilators (more bang for buck) or Pilums (which are slower, but have more shots and regenerate).
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GUNINANRUNIN

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Re: Want more ships specializing in missiles
« Reply #39 on: April 26, 2015, 11:59:07 PM »

Considering how missiles have a lot of advantages that are difficult to negate, from an in-universe standpoint, you'd think combat would center around missile boats defended by PD frigates, somewhat like IRL surface navies.
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Zibywan

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Re: Want more ships specializing in missiles
« Reply #40 on: April 27, 2015, 02:12:30 AM »

I've been playing around with pilum stats for a few days now, just to see if I could find a something that felt right to me. After 15 or 20 minor alterations I've ended up with this...

In weapon_data.csv
Damage: 450
Projectile Speed: 250 (hurricane MIRV main missile speed)
Launch Speed: 50
Flight time: 25
Hit Points: 120

In type_1_lrm.proj
turnAcc: 15
turnRate: 30
acc: 70
dec:60

Every other stat remains the same (granted that changed most of them)

These pilums are faster, less accurate, slightly lower dps, don't clump up so horribly, and work great for long range support ships. It gives them a presence on the field right off the bat.

They usually only get 1 or 2 chances to hit an enemy ship instead of following them around like ducklings, and can no longer be effectively used at assault ranges (unless you aim really really well).

They are a credible threat to any size ship, but can be easily dodged by a frigate, can be evaded by most destroyers, and fast cruisers can sometimes scooch out of the way.

I find these stats for pilums highly appealing, both for my ships and the ones I fight against.
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Sproginator

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Re: Want more ships specializing in missiles
« Reply #41 on: April 27, 2015, 01:08:29 PM »

I've been playing around with pilum stats for a few days now, just to see if I could find a something that felt right to me. After 15 or 20 minor alterations I've ended up with this...

In weapon_data.csv
Damage: 450
Projectile Speed: 250 (hurricane MIRV main missile speed)
Launch Speed: 50
Flight time: 25
Hit Points: 120

In type_1_lrm.proj
turnAcc: 15
turnRate: 30
acc: 70
dec:60

Every other stat remains the same (granted that changed most of them)

These pilums are faster, less accurate, slightly lower dps, don't clump up so horribly, and work great for long range support ships. It gives them a presence on the field right off the bat.

They usually only get 1 or 2 chances to hit an enemy ship instead of following them around like ducklings, and can no longer be effectively used at assault ranges (unless you aim really really well).

They are a credible threat to any size ship, but can be easily dodged by a frigate, can be evaded by most destroyers, and fast cruisers can sometimes scooch out of the way.

I find these stats for pilums highly appealing, both for my ships and the ones I fight against.

Shall try this later :)
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SafariJohn

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Re: Want more ships specializing in missiles
« Reply #42 on: April 28, 2015, 08:58:44 AM »

Tested this modded Pilum with a large simulator battle using my good ol' Pilum based fleet.

I feel 25 flight time is too short. Combined with the low acceleration, max range is 6000 or less.

What's your logic for the 10% reduction in damage and 4% reduction in health?
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Zibywan

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Re: Want more ships specializing in missiles
« Reply #43 on: April 28, 2015, 11:06:25 AM »

Quote
What's your logic for the 10% reduction in damage and 4% reduction in health?

With the speed boost it's not always easy to shoot them down, especially for the energy based ships. 3 or 4 pilums could spell doom for weaker armour ships, so it gives low damage PD on un-upgraded (read computer controlled) ships a chance to shoot them down.

Quote
I feel 25 flight time is too short. Combined with the low acceleration, max range is 6000 or less.

This was intentional. It gives enough range for support ships to participate, but also makes it so the missiles only get one or two chances to hit their intended target instead of lingering on the board for ages and turning into a "pilum death cloud".

So many edits. The dyslexia keeps winning.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2015, 11:10:19 AM by Zibywan »
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SafariJohn

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Re: Want more ships specializing in missiles
« Reply #44 on: April 28, 2015, 11:24:05 AM »

I think 30 seconds flight time would be better. In the single test I did I noticed several Pilums running out of fuel about 2 to 4 seconds before they would have hit their target (on a straight run). It was just slightly too far for them to actually hit despite not being that far away.

Heavily reminded me of the feeling I got when Alex changed the Pilum's speed without adjusting their flight time.
Spoiler
The feeling of getting hit by one's own Pilums.
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