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Author Topic: Want more ships specializing in missiles  (Read 15079 times)

goduranus

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Want more ships specializing in missiles
« on: April 20, 2015, 01:52:39 AM »

The game has many ships that use ballistics main weapons, and many ships that use energy main weapons, I feel that missile weapons are underrepresented, with only the missile frigate arguably being the only ship meant to mainly use missiles. Now that some missiles have infinite ammo, can we have more ships that specialize in missiles as main weapon? I especially like to see the Sunder and Dominator equivalent in missiles ships, that basically sacrifice all flexibility in order to have multiple large missile mounts.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2015, 02:25:52 AM by goduranus »
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MesoTroniK

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Re: Want more ships specializing in missiles
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2015, 02:09:37 AM »

A ship of that type presents severe and unsolvable balance issues.

goduranus

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Re: Want more ships specializing in missiles
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2015, 02:23:42 AM »

How could it be severe and unsolvable if both sides to a fight could have them?
They wouldn't be able to win fights on their own unsupported, most missile ships need a fleet to be effective.
Currently the missile frigate swarm is already doing what bigger missile ships would be doing.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2015, 02:25:35 AM by goduranus »
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ValkyriaL

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Re: Want more ships specializing in missiles
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2015, 02:39:07 AM »

Because they would devalue all others ships, take the missile onslaught for example, nothing can beat it reliably or even at all, dosn't matter what config or ship or you bring, what point would there be to use anything else aside from that to have fun for 10 minutes?

missiles do massive damage for no flux cost at all, and since they regen now, things just got crazy. you have 100% firepower and 100% defence at all times.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2015, 02:46:23 AM by ValkyriaL »
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Tartiflette

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Re: Want more ships specializing in missiles
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2015, 02:45:16 AM »

If you want to check for yourself, use the console and SS+ to get a fleet of 5 to 10 archers with pillums and ECCM. Nothing can stand against them.

And if both sides have them it's a Honnor Harrington's level of destruction in the first salvo, with maybe a couple of survivors and no way to counter it.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2015, 02:53:24 AM by Tartiflette »
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whatdoesthisbuttondo

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Re: Want more ships specializing in missiles
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2015, 05:36:30 AM »

If you want to check for yourself, use the console and SS+ to get a fleet of 5 to 10 archers with pillums and ECCM. Nothing can stand against them.

I'll have to check it when I get home, but pretty sure that one of the ships I'm currently working on would utterly crush a fleet of 5 archers (as long as it's flown by the player).

Nimble enough to reliably outmaneuver the rather slowish pilums (and archers), with enough burst damage to wreck a destroyer in 2-3 attack runs. Going up 1v10 would probably be a stretch though, and 1v5 already being a bit of a Benny Hill performance.

More on topic, at its core this is probably an issue not so much with balance itself, but AI behaviour and the non-existance of fleet point defense strategies on a larger scope (like the area denial flak walls they had in modern BSG).
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CopperCoyote

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Re: Want more ships specializing in missiles
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2015, 06:11:00 AM »

The problem with missiles is they all can focus fire over each other. It's actually an issue with drones too but to a lesser extent and range, and with drones you only see it with modded ships. Anyway missiles can just pile more and more firepower onto the enemy, and the smallest amount of micromanaging means you can easily kill even named battleship bounties with enough pilums.

I'd like to have more ships with stronger missile focus anyway though. Perhaps have them use integrated missile weapons to prevent pilums being the king of everything.
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Blaze

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Re: Want more ships specializing in missiles
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2015, 06:54:41 AM »

Pilums are so slow - both in flight and refire rate - that I don't even bother using them at all; I use harpoons instead.

I think the issue isn't so much that missiles are overpowered as much as AI can't deal with missiles properly.

"What's that? A giant swarm of death is heading directly towards us? We should definitely deal wit- Oh look a frigate!"

A "panic mode" AI where they begin using any and all weapons to shoot down incoming missiles would make this a lot less effective; right now they just stand there and shoot with their small weapons that have too little range to bother.

In vanilla we only have CIWS options, where from a combat standpoint shooting down incoming missiles should be a method of last resort. Even in modern times we have things like Arrow intercept missiles and Anti-ICBMs.

In any case, the answer to specialized missile ships is specialized PD ships; both of which vanilla doesn't have.

Anywho, if you want to play with dedicated PD ships, SS+ has the archer, and then there are mods which have ships that aren't necessarily made for missile spam but are adept at it. Interstellar Imperium adds the ballista class of missiles, Diable Avionics has a lot of ships with universal slots, etc.

I personally prefer to use the Blackrock Silverfish-B for missiles spam. Its has enough OP for ECCM, 5 harpoon racks, and extended racks.
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Thaago

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Re: Want more ships specializing in missiles
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2015, 07:27:36 AM »

...

I think the issue isn't so much that missiles are overpowered as much as AI can't deal with missiles properly.

...

I will second this. Also, the AI does not have many variants that are geared towards missile defense.

I think that heavy missiles can be countered with a heavy PD loadout, but against a non heavy PD loadout its a slaughter.
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SafariJohn

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Re: Want more ships specializing in missiles
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2015, 07:55:08 AM »

I haven't tested it, but an Enforcer with two or three double flak ought to be able to destroy just about any number of Pilums.
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Unfolder

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Re: Want more ships specializing in missiles
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2015, 08:03:12 AM »

As a way to nerf missiles a little, maybe they can collide with each other? That way complete missile spam would be slightly disincentivized. Doesn't really make much sense given their guidance packages, but it might help. Kind of how like in EVE smart bombs will actually destroy each other if fired in too dense a volley.
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Serenitis

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Re: Want more ships specializing in missiles
« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2015, 11:23:27 AM »

Pilums are so slow - both in flight and refire rate - that I don't even bother using them at all; I use harpoons instead.
They are now. But they got a severe speed nerf, at which point I swapped to Harpoons too.
Pilums used to be fun and generally okay in any situation small-scale but far too good large-scale. Now they're pointless and ignorable small-scale and mediocre and mostly ignorable large-scale.
The 'new' Pilums are just far too slow to be a threat to anything still capable of moving.

I haven't tested it, but an Enforcer with two or three double flak ought to be able to destroy just about any number of Pilums.
A pair of double flaks will absolutely eat any amount of pilums (or almost any missile really) pretty much as long as they have free power.
Proximity fuse + Area of effect + Fragmentation = Lots and lots of dead missiles.
Enforcer with DFs on the side mounts is the base of probably my favourite (and most used) ship build.

As a way to nerf missiles a little, maybe they can collide with each other? That way complete missile spam would be slightly disincentivized.
Then you'd have to make sure each missile in a volley fired from the same launcher (maybe the same ship) never crosses paths with any other - self negating ordnance would be just about the most obnoxiously irritating thing ever.
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Megas

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Re: Want more ships specializing in missiles
« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2015, 11:40:44 AM »

Pilums are still good.  You cannot rely on them to damage things at a predictable time, but they are good at mauling ships that cannot defend themselves, like those who are pinned by overwhelming firepower from your Dominator or Onslaught or, if there is a large enough swarm of Pilums, any ship dumb enough to try to shield tank them all at once.

In earlier 0.6.5 releases, Pilums were faster, and with Missile Specialization, enough to replace Harpoons.  It made enemy flagships with Combat 10 so dangerous that if you did not kill them immediately, it was a matter of when, not if, your ships would die.

I do not use Harpoons bigger than the 1 OP single missile version.  They cost too much OP for too few shots that are unreliable, and they do not regenerate.
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Serenitis

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Re: Want more ships specializing in missiles
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2015, 12:10:46 PM »

<pilumchat continues>

...like those who are pinned by overwhelming firepower from your Dominator or Onslaught

If you're in a position to pin something with 'overwhelming firepower', then you don't need to fire missiles at it as well - it's already probably half dead (and shortly fully dead), and those missiles have an opportunity cost that might bite you later.

That being said the Pilum is supposed to be an LRM, as in Long Range. Something it is terrible at being because it is comically slow. Cruisers can out run the damn things now.
Yes. Massed Pilums were a big problem. But the 'fix' for that renders the missiles incapable of fulfilling their stated role and makes them significantly less fun/useful.
Their speed was fine previously, all they needed was a slightly 'fuzzier' guidance ability (and/or slightly slower turn rate) so they aren't so overwhelmingly awesome.

(Don't know why I insist on typing this stuff out when I can just change a number in a file. :D)


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Schwartz

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Re: Want more ships specializing in missiles
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2015, 12:48:39 PM »

SS+ with missile skill at 10 and Expanded Racks & ECCM Package makes Pilums a good bit more dangerous and the already dangerous Harpoon into something to be dreaded. I like putting 2 Harpoon Racks and 1 Ballista LRM Rack on my Archers, and fitting ECCM on a regenerating missile source like a Gemini with LRMs is also a good idea. OP, you should fire up the SS+ mod, it's got what you need.

I disagree that there shouldn't be ships who specialize in missiles. They're tons of fun, and you can saturate your enemy with them even without dedicated missile haulers. If you only use Wolves with 2 Expanded Racks Harpoon slots on them, you're looking at 10 Harpoons per frigate. In my current game, I have several of these, plus two Archer destroyers of which one got taken out a few battles ago. Missile spam is a great support, but it isn't everything and it's not going to win you impossible battles. That tactic still relies on the player and dedicated combat vessels to take down enemy ships, incapacitate or damage them enough for the slow-ish LRMs to even become a threat.

But as was noted, an Enforcer with 2 Flaks can pretty much hold out indefinitely against missile swarms. And everyone seems to use those and doesn't even consider them mainly a PD build! So again there's a bit of a balance gap.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2015, 01:52:16 PM by Schwartz »
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