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[Solinarius]

I've been thinking about this, and I think this is an area where realism isn't going to fly, really. I mean, what would "really" happen is an attack on a faction patrol would get thoroughly investigated, there'd be blackboxes, communications sent (prior to any jamming - a constant feed to HQ or some such), crews talking carelessly, etc. It's hard to imagine that one would ever get away with anything inside a populated system.

Oh, by no means was I suggesting that realism be left at the wheel. That is a good point, though! Aside from dodging reputation hits, I was reflecting on how the AI auto-resolve battles appear on the campaign map. They can take several seconds at times, and within that period, reinforcements could have given aid. I know that kind of behavior has been off the table in the past, but I think it would be an excellent factor to revisit in the revised campaign. It would simultaneously give the player a reason to end battles quickly (other than CR failures) or risk being engaged by reinforcements.

[Alex]

Oh, by no means was I suggesting that realism be left at the wheel. That is a good point, though! Aside from dodging reputation hits, I was reflecting on how the AI auto-resolve battles appear on the campaign map. They can take several seconds at times, and within that period, reinforcements could have given aid. I know that kind of behavior has been off the table in the past, but I think it would be an excellent factor to revisit in the revised campaign. It would simultaneously give the player a reason to end battles quickly (other than CR failures) or risk being engaged by reinforcements.

Ah, gotcha. Looking at it again, I think what I said reflects more how I went about it ("alright, looks like a 'what would really happen' approach is useless here, <toss>") than what you actually said, which didn't necessarily imply realism one way or the other.

Yeah, hmm. Might not be a bad time to look at multi-side battles. My main concern would be biting off too much for the update, there's already quite a lot to hammer into shape. I'll keep it in mind - if it presents itself as a good solution to a design problem, will take a closer look at it.

[Sproginator]

I love it already

[Harmful Mechanic]

Yeah, I'm really looking forward to this. One of my favorite things about the genre is having to make choices on the basis of incomplete information.

And as a fan of the Omen I'll be glad to see it provide yet more benefit to my fleet, besides being a ferocious point-capper.

[Sproginator]

So, Basically, If a ship is within scanning range, you get to see just what ships it has? What about something like Sensor blip distrubances? I.E some nebula may give off false readings etc

[Wyvern]

Hm... So, just to check that I've got this straight: ships with "stealth" - right now just phase ships - act only to make the whole fleet harder to detect?  Are there any plans for - or would it be possible to mod in - ships that were individually more sneaky?

Thinking it'd be neat to have something like, "Oh, there's a group of freighters over there with their transponder running.  Just a light escort, let's go close for the kill... wait, no, they've got a Doom!  That wasn't in their transponder readout!  Retreat, retreat!"

[ThePirateKing]

It would be cool if you could use nebulae to sneak up on unsuspecting fleets more easily.  Maybe it would reduce both your sensor profile and sensor strength dramatically, making it more easy to ambush an enemy, but also more easy to be ambushed.

Also, with regards to this: "For a while now, the core campaign gameplay has been pretty … let’s say straightforward. You click somewhere, your fleet goes there, you may chase or be chased along the way, and that’s pretty much all there is to it."
I find the clicking can actually be pretty difficult a lot of the time!  Say you want to set a course for Jangala station from the map screen; you end up clicking one of the innumerable patrols and trade fleets orbiting it, at least three or four times, before getting it right.  Limiting sensor range will surely help with that map clutter, which is an added bonus.  If you could just do something about all those pesky asteroids...

[Dri]

This is actually going to make the early game even harder when it first rolls out.

Being able to see the whole map, and looking for the proper sized fleet icons, really helps cut down on time loss and supplies wasted when out hunting. Is there going to be anything to compensate for the rougher and more dangerous early-game that the sensor change is going to bring about?

Or did I read wrong and the sensor change isn't going to go live for a good long while?

[Uomoz]

Feels like all my whining about "perfect information in the campaign layer removes the thrill of the encounters" on the forums and on the skype chat reached Alex. I may be a vodoo witch doctor or something.

[Pushover]

Sounds awesome!

It would be great if there was even more granularity regarding sensors. Initially, all you can see is the size of the fleet, nothing in the fleet. Then as the fleet comes closer, you can see the number of ships and ship class (fighter/frigate/destroyer/cruiser/cap), but not the ship types itself. Then, when the fleet is even closer you can see the individual ship types.

[Alex]

And as a fan of the Omen I'll be glad to see it provide yet more benefit to my fleet, besides being a ferocious point-capper.

Oh, nice, an Omen fan

So, Basically, If a ship is within scanning range, you get to see just what ships it has? What about something like Sensor blip distrubances? I.E some nebula may give off false readings etc

Thought about that, yeah. Maybe? The sort of thing I don't want to put in "just because".

Hm... So, just to check that I've got this straight: ships with "stealth" - right now just phase ships - act only to make the whole fleet harder to detect?  Are there any plans for - or would it be possible to mod in - ships that were individually more sneaky?

Thinking it'd be neat to have something like, "Oh, there's a group of freighters over there with their transponder running.  Just a light escort, let's go close for the kill... wait, no, they've got a Doom!  That wasn't in their transponder readout!  Retreat, retreat!"

Yeah, you got it right. I don't *think* it'd be possible to mod in (well, aside from manipulating the fleet composition directly, which I suppose means it *is* possible).

It's a neat idea, though. Hmm. It's also kind of complex, mechanics-wise - how do you determine the exact ranges involved, and, more importantly, how do you communicate this to the player? My feeling is that it's the sort of thing where the occasional neat moment isn't worth all that comes with it, but I'll keep it in mind.

It would be cool if you could use nebulae to sneak up on unsuspecting fleets more easily.  Maybe it would reduce both your sensor profile and sensor strength dramatically, making it more easy to ambush an enemy, but also more easy to be ambushed.

Yeah, wouldn't it?

Also, with regards to this: "For a while now, the core campaign gameplay has been pretty … let’s say straightforward. You click somewhere, your fleet goes there, you may chase or be chased along the way, and that’s pretty much all there is to it."
I find the clicking can actually be pretty difficult a lot of the time!  Say you want to set a course for Jangala station from the map screen; you end up clicking one of the innumerable patrols and trade fleets orbiting it, at least three or four times, before getting it right.  Limiting sensor range will surely help with that map clutter, which is an added bonus.  If you could just do something about all those pesky asteroids...

Yeah, it'll definitely help for picking a destination from afar. From up close, a hint: it picks the entity whose center is closest to where you clicked, so click as close to the center of your target as you can.

(Very much aware that this is an issue, though.)

This is actually going to make the early game even harder when it first rolls out.

Being able to see the whole map, and looking for the proper sized fleet icons, really helps cut down on time loss and supplies wasted when out hunting. Is there going to be anything to compensate for the rougher and more dangerous early-game that the sensor change is going to bring about?

Or did I read wrong and the sensor change isn't going to go live for a good long while?

It's not going live any time soon - there's a lot of work to do on it and on the related features, before it's a cohesive whole. The shape it's in now, the sensors technically work, but it's not any sort of benefit to the gameplay.

Feels like all my whining about "perfect information in the campaign layer removes the thrill of the encounters" on the forums and on the skype chat reached Alex. I may be a vodoo witch doctor or something.

I did see it (I think - there were a couple of posts on the subject, iirc), but I gotta be honest here - I've been thinking about sensors for, like, years. Feels great to be finally adding it, too!

It would be great if there was even more granularity regarding sensors. Initially, all you can see is the size of the fleet, nothing in the fleet. Then as the fleet comes closer, you can see the number of ships and ship class (fighter/frigate/destroyer/cruiser/cap), but not the ship types itself. Then, when the fleet is even closer you can see the individual ship types.

The issue with that is you can see the specific ship types once you see the fleet in the campaign view - i.e. once it's out of the "blip" stage. You could probably do some sort of "more detailed blip" stage, though, but, well, let's wait and see. Not opposed to doing something like that, just not without a solid gameplay reason. Other than "it'd be kind of cool and it sort of makes sense", that is

[xenoargh]

This is actually going to make the early game even harder when it first rolls out.

I actually agree with this sentiment.  I think that Corvus is going to need some purposeful adjustments to make it more of a newbie-friendly zone.  How that's handled, I have no idea, but I agree, that's a thing I'd like to see- a little purposeful move in that direction, where Corvus is the newbie area and generally, the further away from Corvus you get, the harder the encounters tend to be.  That is a pretty common way to handle the difficulty ramp in a lot of these games, and it usually works.  

But I, for one, am really looking forward to things being harder, but more rewarding.  I want the thrill of waiting in ambush, or being suddenly attacked out of nowhere, and suddenly having to change course, and meeting vast fleets that are a real threat in late-game, instead of sedately ignoring everything that might be vaguely dangerous, because it's too slow to catch me.

Being able to see the whole map, and looking for the proper sized fleet icons, really helps cut down on time loss and supplies wasted when out hunting. Is there going to be anything to compensate for the rougher and more dangerous early-game that the sensor change is going to bring about?

That's something that can be adjusted with better loot.  Which the game needs so that piracy is a functional alternative career, anyhow.


Also, I was thinking about this a bit, and I think it might be a cool idea if Stations revealed all fleets nearby to the player in a fairly broad radius... if the player was friendly / neutral with that Faction.  That would provide a zone where players can see what's going on and be relatively safe.  That would help the early impact.

[Pushover]

I think starting bounties smaller (a single destroyer or 1-2 frigates) would help a bit with the earlygame.


It might also help to allow slight changes to scanning power, for example when I'm headed somewhere, I don't care as much about scanning behind my fleet compared to what I'm headed towards. If I'm waiting in ambush, I probably want to get a hit on whatever route I'm camping, rather than the (probably) empty space behind me.

[Debido]

Alright I'll state the obvious idea - transponder forgery/theft and masquerading.

Perhaps every now and then a transponder from a defeated Hegemony/Tri-Tachyon/Faction A,B,C,D etc. shows up in the salvage.

You have the option of not only 'transponder on/off' but also which transponder you would like to masquerade as to 'fool' the enemy AI. We've certainly seen pirates able to do it in the existing code base, switching from pirate to independent on the fly. It would be cool to pose as the Syndrian and enter Hegemony space when the Hegemony are currently hostile to you - allowing you to enter their space freely without aggression.

Of course if a legitimate inspection fleet decided to have a close look at you...you'd instantly be in a conflict with them as they would be able to do a direct scan of your hulls. One assumes your reputation would take a big hit too.

The transponder codes themselves would expire after a period of time, or be instantly expired if you are inspected by the relevant authorities.

[ArkAngel]

There's a possibility for new hullmods around these eventually, or for effects relating to these stats on existing hullmods. For example, I'm thinking about removing the cargo penalty and adding a sensor profile boost to Augmented Engines.

I like that idea quite a bit. Provides a bit more reason to avoid using augmented engines because of speeds then just cargo capicity, which for smugglers who smuggled small amounts of contraband, would be neglegent.

Alright I'll state the obvious idea - transponder forgery/theft and masquerading.

Perhaps every now and then a transponder from a defeated Hegemony/Tri-Tachyon/Faction A,B,C,D etc. shows up in the salvage.

You have the option of not only 'transponder on/off' but also which transponder you would like to masquerade as to 'fool' the enemy AI. We've certainly seen pirates able to do it in the existing code base, switching from pirate to independent on the fly. It would be cool to pose as the Syndrian and enter Hegemony space when the Hegemony are currently hostile to you - allowing you to enter their space freely without aggression.

Of course if a legitimate inspection fleet decided to have a close look at you...you'd instantly be in a conflict with them as they would be able to do a direct scan of your hulls. One assumes your reputation would take a big hit too.

The transponder codes themselves would expire after a period of time, or be instantly expired if you are inspected by the relevant authorities.

This is an awesome way of handling Transponder theft/forgery. I like the ability to get a transponder, but maybe, rarely have one show up on the black-market? The way of expiring is also quite nice.