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Author Topic: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes  (Read 574434 times)

Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #915 on: November 20, 2015, 10:31:17 PM »

Thanks for the feedback!

Hmm. Sure, frigates, but how do you do vs destroyers and such? It can take quite a while to take out proper destroyers (i.e. not a Buffalo Mk.II) with a Pulse Laser, especially if there is more than one so it's harder to focus on it entirely. Long enough that it costs you many more supplies due to CR degradation.

Part of the balance here is definitely cost - however many supplies it ends up costing you to recover, that's roughly how many deployment-supplies of non-SO ships it should be in the rough ballpark of, performance wise. It's a lot easier to get some SO ships going, though, so that's got to count for something too.

Then there's having to take more time to recover. It's not always an option, right? A bounty might be expiring, etc. Using Emergency Burn isn't free either, and you can't recover while it's going. This all might be more of an issue when there's more time pressure in the campaign - e.g., sure you could whittle down that enemy fleet, but they're sending marines down to raid your outpost right now.

All that said, I might very well end up nerfing it a bit. It certainly sounds like you've put it to very good use; any thoughts on what'd make sense to you as far as nerfs? One consideration is that speed really ought to stay the way it is, otherwise AI ships using it means the optimal strategy against them is waiting out their CR and that's a no-go.
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joekungfu

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Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #916 on: November 20, 2015, 10:58:09 PM »


Quote
Hmm. Sure, frigates, but how do you do vs destroyers and such? It can take quite a while to take out proper destroyers (i.e. not a Buffalo Mk.II) with a Pulse Laser, especially if there is more than one so it's harder to focus on it entirely. Long enough that it costs you many more supplies due to CR degradation.

destroyers without omni shield are pretty much sitting targets, just kite/take out the engines and pew pew the corpse. destroyers with omnishield... I actually developed a baby-simplistic strategy for this. first you kill off all its support, which is easy, since the things that can actually kill you, will never be able to catch you. next, reinforce/call out your other wolf, then you just tag team it to death. it doesn't really take that long with two, and there's no threat to your AI frigate since you took out all the mooks. the only destroyer that has ever actually given me trouble, even in previous versions, is the enforcer.

  I will actually tell you an incredible cheesy strategy you can use on some destroyers and above that you might not know about or would like to see changed. first, take your speedy/shielded frigate(preferrably with phase teleportation), next, prop yourself face first, up against the engines on one of the vulnerable destroyers or cruisers. then, you simply push it away from the rest of their fleet while firing into the engines! iirc here's a few ships this worked quite nicely on last version: hammerhead, sunder, even the falcon/eagle

I'd take my hyperion and teleport behind an eagle, right between its shields/engine and just push it away from the rest of the fleet while gravitroning/torpedo/harpoon'ing it to death, many many lols were had.

Quote
Part of the balance here is definitely cost - however many supplies it ends up costing you to recover, that's roughly how many deployment-supplies of non-SO ships it should be in the rough ballpark of, performance wise. It's a lot easier to get some SO ships going, though, so that's got to count for something too.

Then there's having to take more time to recover. It's not always an option, right? A bounty might be expiring, etc. Using Emergency Burn isn't free either, and you can't recover while it's going. This all might be more of an issue when there's more time pressure in the campaign - e.g., sure you could whittle down that enemy fleet, but they're sending marines down to raid your outpost right now.

supplies and their use arent really an issue when you only have /one/ ship and you are slaughtering enemies with regularity. I stopped running out of supplies and fuel once I made my first 20k. The time thing, yeah, but obviously since you haven't added all that stuff yet it's very difficult to balance it with features you might only have in-mind.

also, non-SO ships lack the survivability and immunity from pirate hot-drops that SO frigs do, which also saves resources since you'll never take significant damage or lose ships. it's just so safe to do there's huge incentive to do so.

Quote
All that said, I might very well end up nerfing it a bit. It certainly sounds like you've put it to very good use; any thoughts on what'd make sense to you as far as nerfs? One consideration is that speed really ought to stay the way it is, otherwise AI ships using it means the optimal strategy against them is waiting out their CR and that's a no-go.

IMO it makes 0 sense that you can get a hull mod at the very start of the game that gives you an ability that is far and away better than that one level 10 combat skill that gives you 0 flux boost until 25% flux. 0 flux bonus no matter how much flux you have, as well as another fantastic speed boost, AND it gives you extra flux-per-second on top of that?! I don't see how this got past you, man!

Did you ever time how long it takes to vent a full bar of flux versus how much time it takes to naturally disperse that same amount of flux with SO? because it didn't seem like that much of a difference to me. the real kicker is, even though you can't vent with SO, with shields off and not firing weapons, you still vent flux very quickly, and there's the added bonus of not being completely vulnerable like you are with normal venting, and you go like 30%+ faster.
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Midnight Kitsune

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Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #917 on: November 20, 2015, 11:08:41 PM »

I agree that SO needs to be locked away but on the other hand, if people are needing to put SO on to be able to get out of early game then what to do then? If you nerf the pirate numbers, then people could become dirt poor. Much more and even more players will have problems in the early game
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Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #918 on: November 20, 2015, 11:22:28 PM »

I agree that SO needs to be locked away but on the other hand, if people are needing to put SO on to be able to get out of early game then what to do then? If you nerf the pirate numbers, then people could become dirt poor. Much more and even more players will have problems in the early game

I don't think SO is at all needed to get out of the early game. It's a bit easier, but it's perfectly doable without it. In my experience it actually felt pretty similar, difficulty-wise, by the time I got to the end of the playtesting.


I'd take my hyperion and teleport behind an eagle, right between its shields/engine and just push it away from the rest of the fleet while gravitroning/torpedo/harpoon'ing it to death, many many lols were had.

Hah! Nice :)


supplies and their use arent really an issue when you only have /one/ ship and you are slaughtering enemies with regularity. I stopped running out of supplies and fuel once I made my first 20k. The time thing, yeah, but obviously since you haven't added all that stuff yet it's very difficult to balance it with features you might only have in-mind.

Running out may not be an issue, but it still cuts into your profits. My point is that if you can, say, deploy triple the ships without SO, and steamroll things in a similar fashion, then that's more or less ok, balance-wise. Just a different playstyle.


IMO it makes 0 sense that you can get a hull mod at the very start of the game that gives you an ability that is far and away better than that one level 10 combat skill that gives you 0 flux boost until 25% flux. 0 flux bonus no matter how much flux you have, as well as another fantastic speed boost, AND it gives you extra flux-per-second on top of that?! I don't see how this got past you, man!

The idea is to open up a different playstyle - aggressive and close-combat focused.

The question is exactly what the downsides (which are already drastic) should be to balance it out. I think it already works out pretty well in terms of how it feels in combat - SO ships are fun to play, right? So maybe some non-combat penalties are in order. Increased sensor profile, increased maintenance costs, reduced sensor range, maybe something else. Perhaps a bit of a nerf in the dissipation bonus department, as well.

Again, thank you for the feedback - this is good, and is exactly the sort of thing that's going to help figure it out.


Did you ever time how long it takes to vent a full bar of flux versus how much time it takes to naturally disperse that same amount of flux with SO? because it didn't seem like that much of a difference to me. the real kicker is, even though you can't vent with SO, with shields off and not firing weapons, you still vent flux very quickly, and there's the added bonus of not being completely vulnerable like you are with normal venting, and you go like 30%+ faster.

Regular dissipation speed with SO is about the same as vent speed without, yeah.
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Sy

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Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #919 on: November 20, 2015, 11:31:40 PM »

just noticed Xyphos Wings' description still reads they are equipped with "a phase beam emitter", despite now having Pulse Lasers instead. i really like that change btw, the three beams felt too powerful against enemy fighters and too weak against larger ships.

are there any plans to buff Tridents? since they are supposed to be the high-tech bomber wings, yet Daggers always felt more useful to me.
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joekungfu

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Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #920 on: November 21, 2015, 12:16:57 AM »

Hah! Nice :)

I actually just tested this with the wolf in simulator, and it seems not to work quite so well as I remember with the hyperion, so either you already did do something about changing this or what I described is a Hyperion™ only strategy. I still haven't found one in .7 except in a NPC fleet, sadly

Quote
Running out may not be an issue, but it still cuts into your profits. My point is that if you can, say, deploy triple the ships without SO, and steamroll things in a similar fashion, then that's more or less ok, balance-wise. Just a different playstyle.

the problem, I think, is that SO is so powerful, on the player's ship in particular, that it becomes the most logical gateway to that other playstyle you described. You have to grind up the money to buy a bigger fleet first, and losing ships is very costly, and you will be surprised by bigger fleets and lose ships. I guess you could spam fighters with a carrier? but then, you'd need to protect the carrier from bigger threats, which it's far more vulnerable to, which requires even more resources to get started.

It's so much easier to change three settings and goof around with an OP wolf for an hour or two, get a lot of money and a great character or two, then buy all that stuff at once. And then, you don't even have to deal with sensor shenanigans.

Spoiler
[close]

pretty much all my profit came from missions. I made 200k in this mission just during my times casually exploring/checking the mission board/killing pirates.  Also notice how it's almost the perfect amount to fit with just one wolf. I think I took a hermes along for that trip too. With SO of course! Pirate immunity!! it's like the game wants me to do it. Not to mention, since you took customs shakedowns away, and I never have to turn my transponder off, there's 0 risk from transporting illegal cargo

In .65 I think big fleets were a lot more viable, in my playstyle at least, because I could easily avoid fights I knew would cause losses. In .7, of course, that's totally different.

the wolf is/was the best choice at the start, imo, and remains the best option until much later in the game, when you can actually afford to build a big fleet and keep it afloat until you smash or trade enough things. and, you're right, that derping in my wolf is fun to do, but the game was already fun, so  ;)

Quote
The question is exactly what the downsides (which are already drastic) should be to balance it out. I think it already works out pretty well in terms of how it feels in combat - SO ships are fun to play, right? So maybe some non-combat penalties are in order. Increased sensor profile, increased maintenance costs, reduced sensor range, maybe something else. Perhaps a bit of a nerf in the dissipation bonus department, as well.

Again, thank you for the feedback - this is good, and is exactly the sort of thing that's going to help figure it out.

Starfasector is definitely looking way better than ever, and the hard work is evident. keep it up, and I'm sure you'll figure out the whole balance thing in no time ;) ;) ;)


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Sy

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Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #921 on: November 21, 2015, 12:21:42 AM »

some ideas regarding penalties for SO:
  • SO bonuses dropping over time, as ship gets closer to peak performance
  • disabled weapons taken out for the duration of the battle
  • increased damage taken by weapons/engines
  • increased negative terrain effects, in and out of combat
  • increased fuel consumption (more meaningful with frequent Emergency Burns.. might also fit Augmented Engines?)
  • increased CR cost for deployment
  • reduced (or even completely negated?) CR recovery outside of markets
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Tartiflette

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Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #922 on: November 21, 2015, 01:13:38 AM »

The trick with SO I think is that it's exceedingly useful early game to pick the enemy ships one by one and blast them away. But once you start facing bigger ships and fleets, the battles last longer and the Peak time reduction start to take it's toll real hard. It could certainly use a nerf, (I like the idea of decreasing effect over time as suggested above) but not a big one IMO.
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Wyvern

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Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #923 on: November 21, 2015, 01:28:10 AM »

The one thing I'd request if you're looking at nerfing SO some is that the nerf not be tied to out of combat performance.  I do not want another thing like the old augmented engines where I'm encouraged to swap hull mods in and out depending on whether I'm planning on trading or bounty hunting or whatever else.

Reduced CR recovery rate sounds good.
Some reduction in SO bonuses once peak performance runs out would probably also be good.
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Sy

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Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #924 on: November 21, 2015, 01:39:03 AM »

It could certainly use a nerf, (I like the idea of decreasing effect over time as suggested above) but not a big one IMO.
i think depending on details like whether the drop is linear, whether the bonuses are eventually negated entirely and whether all bonuses are affected, the peak performance time itself might not need such a drastic reduction. having SO reduce PPT by only half or so but with continously dropping performance would allow ships to stay in battle for longer if necessary, while still favoring a very aggressive playstyle, even more so than is currently the case in many of the smaller battles.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2015, 01:42:10 AM by Sy »
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ErKeL

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Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #925 on: November 21, 2015, 01:48:24 AM »

Man I seriously just had the most evenly matched bounty ever.

Took both fleets to the absolute brink of collapse. Every ship bar two of mine were under 10% CR by the end of it. I had to retreat the majority of my fleet and the hostile fleet was just as exhausted. Luckily I had a few low tech ships that hadn't seen much action to obliterate what was left of their high tech ships dead in the water. Malfunctions across the board. It was intense!

Unfortunately I lacked the resources to deal the killing blow to the bounty captain but wow, that was exhilarating!
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Serenitis

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Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #926 on: November 21, 2015, 03:20:35 AM »

Playing 0.7 is like when I tried playing a "no pursuit" game last version.
It is slooooooow.
Still only got a frigate and a couple of transports, and can barely keep them going due to spending most of my time/supplies running away from virtually everything.
Or trying to because of that damn burn boost.
And my frigate is behaving like a fighter: It loses nearly half of it's CR whenever it gets deployed. This is a serious gimp from the previous version.

I'm finding that how shuttles/light transports slow you down now is irritating, and exacerbates the problem of being repeatedly mugged by randoms.
Doubly irritaing as they are an absolute nessesity to get anything useful done.
Triply irritating in that they attract every bugger and his dog seemingly from all over the place.

The transport contracts are p. good, but are frequently out of reach due to the huge amounts of expensive stuff people ask for.
And sometimes the seemingly impossible time limits.
I do miss the market disruptions that gave some random thing significantly better buy or sell prices for a while, but maybe the contracts are supposed to take over that kind of thing now. (And that markets seem to have almost limitless quantities of everything, except fuel and supplies.)
Although it would be really nice if the people we have to contact to complete missions are highlighted - I can never remember thier names and end up clicking everyone.

Marines seem to be pretty expensive. It was mentioned that they were going to be ~500-ish each, but I've not yet seen any for less than 950.
Is this a market rollercoaster thing?

Space terrain is nice. I really like how there's a little info bar that tells you what kind of horrible place you're in / which system landmark you're near.

Joining battles in progress is probably the single best feature though. It is super fun being able to participate in big events at any level, and "rescuing" trader fleets is something I've quite enjoyed.
Pegasus Rescue Brigade GO!

But...
Finding battles, or even fleets small enough to fight alone seems to be a nigh impossible task. And as such I have spent the past hour wandering around looking for something to poke in between not finding suitable delivery missions.
And it is boring.

Is it intentional that the music fades out and in again sometimes, like I've just stuffed a towel in my speakers? Because it sounds really weird.

I've not even got this far into the game yet, but Tachyon Lance range = 1000.
Really?
And it still costs a ton of OP.
Really?

Is there any other way of displaying the sensor echoes? Like a direction pointer with a numerical distance indicator?
Or at least some means in game of telling me exactly what these distracting things are trying to show me, because all I'm getting from these is "there's something somewhere".
I get that it's supposed to show a faction and a general direction, but sometimes the lines move towards you, sometimes away, and the curves are so wide it's kind of hard to see what direction they're coming from when there's a few of them all going at once. The whole thing just seems really murky and opaque.

The "new player" frustration potential has increased quite a bit in this release. And that's not really a good thing.
I'm trying to think of a way to not dogpile newbies with all this harsh stuff while keeping the rest of the game as-is, and the only things I can come up with probably negate the purpose of having them in the first place:
  • Make burn boost "run away" only
  • Increase basic sensor range
In all honesty if I was coming into SS just now I probably would have played it for an hour or so, run in to all these "traps" got fed up and just deleted it despite it looking super fun.
I'm a "casual", so while I don't mind a challenge I really don't like being forced into them. Player agency etc etc.

I'll continue to hit my head on this object for a while yet, maybe it will even stop hurting at some point....
« Last Edit: November 21, 2015, 05:32:13 AM by Serenitis »
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Clockwork Owl

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Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #927 on: November 21, 2015, 03:44:29 AM »

*Seen some 6~7 digits of volatile stock in a market, Seems need some handling.

*Going dark should have confirmation, since it turns the transponder off(A Tri-tach division commander was mad at me because I forgot to turn the transponder on after jumping out to normal space - hell, nearby hyperspace was total chaos - and caught, and about a day later mistakenly went dark and caught again)

*Mission deadline could be extended a bit - maybe 10~20% extra time room. 10 days DEADLINE for a trip from Ogma(Hybrasil) to Skati(Valhalla), acquiring the goods on the way. Heck, it's nearly impossible unless you already have the items required, slip through all the pirates on the way(and there are always certainly one waiting for you), and starsplanets are in the right position. Missed 2 at the same time by literally a second.

Trying to be a Tri-Tachyon employee, but getting employed in the Sector isn't an easy task these days it seems...
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Luqero

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Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #928 on: November 21, 2015, 03:59:41 AM »

Really great update! I have alot of fun!  :D

About AI talk, i think its good, yeah sometimes ally gets between u and ur target when u shoot and have still flux to use but its rare. I must say i like how enemy use that manuver. I had few moments when i was shoooting enemy ship and when is was almost destroyed and my flux close to full enemy frigate run between and protect his buddy and i cant finish them as i need to get rid of flux, or they try to overload me and turn tides. It really add great feel!
Phasing frigates are annoying but when u have few ships or more they cant do much but simply wait till end of batte to being killed last.
I think that trying to solo everything is not a way to go, having 1vs many and relying on border hugging to win should not work. Get some ships and divide enemy attention.

Also AI seems better now, i dont loose ships as fast as before.

Beggining is hard but adding one or two ships to your fleet dont take long and its making things easier as u dont get flanked as much. I didnt used SO much, tried to equip it at ally frigate but overall much lower peak time is no good for me.
Also i wasnt much ambushed by overhelming enemy fleets even with transponder on. Few big one i simply escaped by entering battle and running off, with few fast ships its easy. Order retreat and shoot some rockets/ weapons at enemy so they dont advance as fast then escape with ur flagship.

I really like that u can join ongoing battles and at beggining it was rather safe thing to get some credits.

I also enjoy little revenge thing when doing bounties, when killing most of bounty fleet including main officer, leftovers sometimes maintain contact with my fleet and if no ally show up to aid them, after some time, they go for revenge even if they dont stand any chance :D

Transponder thing need some time to getting used but its really nice addition, i was so happy that i could trade with pirates and get some cheap goods even when they was totally hostile :p Low sensor range maybe could be fixed by having some ship that is slower but have powerful antena installed? or some kind of modification. You could run slower but safer. Or maybe when installing comm sniffer you could get some small boost to sensors in that sector?

The thing i dont like is how hard it is to build up reputation with faction. I choosed Hegemony, did some random missions, bounties, killed pirates, some trading, maybe didnt try hard and lost some rep few times when i had transponder off but now im lvl 40 with little over 1mil credits and i barely made to 'welcoming' with Hegemony. Killing enemy ships factions dont give rep and doing rare missions for 1 rep to build all rep is not really fun. There should be some ogoing, or often missions to kill enemy faction ships or intercept some bigger cargo fleet which should give atleast some reputation.

Btw what is that cat picture in portraits folder? :P
« Last Edit: November 21, 2015, 04:09:26 AM by Luqero »
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TJJ

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Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #929 on: November 21, 2015, 04:26:42 AM »

Just realized I've been so busy playing the game, and posting bugs/suggestions, that I've not actually said how awesome I think this update is!
Well done Alex & team.
Not found SS this exciting & enjoyable since I 1st bought it way back when.
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