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Author Topic: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes  (Read 504746 times)

Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #900 on: November 20, 2015, 08:04:48 PM »

No personal attacks, please. (And no personal counter-attacks.)
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speeder

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Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #901 on: November 20, 2015, 08:18:54 PM »

My feedback:

One, game is now absurdly hard, not because of sneaky pirates (in fact, not ONCE I was attacked by pirates O.o), but because as a trader, with the new broken economy (where all planets have 30.000 of everything + 30% trading tax), I figured I had to do cross-star work...

But as soon as I get to hyperspace, that green faction surrounds me and stomps me, it is very annoying, I found no way to evade them, they just engage, and insta-kill me (a single one of their ships can insta-kill the merchant ship on the start, I am unsure how, since they use the same hull, but is just they find me on the battle, start firing, and immediately all my engines and weapons go down like if I was hit by an emp, and then I see red numbers popping everywhere and then I am dead).

Two, being a trader now clearly sucks, I love to play a trader, but the market is broken, the events clearly are not powerful anymore (example: I had a event trigger a price decrease for supplies, that resulted in supplies being priced at 60...), and the missions are all for smugglers, the ONE time I saw a mission I could do as a trader, it was in the other side of the hyperspace map, and I could not weave around the horde of the green faction.
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SafariJohn

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Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #902 on: November 20, 2015, 08:30:28 PM »

If you open a comm link with the Luddic Path fleet (the lime green guys), you can pay them off.


As a suggestion, I think they should open a comm link with the player themselves upon interception. It's far from obvious that you can pay them off if you talk to them instead of trying to fight or run.
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Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #903 on: November 20, 2015, 08:37:47 PM »

Being a purely-legal trader is going to be rough going, yes. Consider it a commentary on the state of affairs in the Sector, perhaps. Most of the fun stuff in trading, gameplay-wise, comes from the less-legal aspects of it, anyway. Later on with industry, I think there may be easier "legal, non-violent" paths to take on, but that's not in place yet. All in all, "legal trader" is the path that's received the least attention in terms of dev-time so far.

That said, you could probably pull it off, but I think it'd involve procurement missions, trade disruptions, and a bit of luck. Or maybe more than a bit.

I'm not aware of the economy being "broken", though; are there specific issues with prices etc? Just having lots of stuff available to buy isn't a problem per se and doesn't affect the prices you get.
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speeder

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Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #904 on: November 20, 2015, 08:55:20 PM »

Most missions I am seeing are outright illegal.

Sometimes, I see a interesting mission, but then it wants the one good that noone has (example: people want machines, that frequently stations have only 30 of them or so...)

What I maen by "broken economy" is that some goods everyone has in absurd amounts, you can remove them from the game completely that they would make no difference, since there is no point in ever trading them, even with events (and I never saw them in missions).

In one of my re-starts, in corvus alone there was 500k organic stuff, 800k food, I visited another system, and it also had 700k of organic stuff, and 1 million of that blue thing...

Meanwhile people are all over the place wanting deliveries of 100 machines, but noone can supply that (nor it fits the starting ship, nor you can afford it at start, in fact at start almost no mission is doable at all! in one of my re-start attempts I resorted to using cheat engine to give me money, because it was very boring trying to scrounge money to start as a trader, since I could not afford any goods at all to sell elsewhere!)


Still, I came back to say I found a bug with your transponder system: when targeting a fleet, you are immediately let known who they are: I saw a "blip", used active sensor thing, and saw a gray fleet, I clicked on them, and on the top of my screen this showed: "Laying an intercept course for Pirate attack fleet", but when I mouseover they are still "Unindentified fleet", I guess this is a bug and not intended.
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speeder

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Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #905 on: November 20, 2015, 08:56:20 PM »

If you open a comm link with the Luddic Path fleet (the lime green guys), you can pay them off.


As a suggestion, I think they should open a comm link with the player themselves upon interception. It's far from obvious that you can pay them off if you talk to them instead of trying to fight or run.

Oh, I only opened comm with them once, they spouted some *** and still attacked... I didn't knew you could try to tribe them.
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Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #906 on: November 20, 2015, 09:05:06 PM »

What I maen by "broken economy" is that some goods everyone has in absurd amounts, you can remove them from the game completely that they would make no difference, since there is no point in ever trading them, even with events (and I never saw them in missions).

In one of my re-starts, in corvus alone there was 500k organic stuff, 800k food, I visited another system, and it also had 700k of organic stuff, and 1 million of that blue thing...

Thanks for clarifying.


Meanwhile people are all over the place wanting deliveries of 100 machines, but noone can supply that (nor it fits the starting ship, nor you can afford it at start, in fact at start almost no mission is doable at all! in one of my re-start attempts I resorted to using cheat engine to give me money, because it was very boring trying to scrounge money to start as a trader, since I could not afford any goods at all to sell elsewhere!)

Yeah, procurement missions are more of an opportunistic thing rather than something you're guaranteed to be able to do.

If you want machinery, btw, Chicomoztoc in Aztlan is a good place for it. Agreus in Arcadia also has some. One way to see (aside from the "price" intel filter) is opening up the "market info" panel at a market, clicking on the commodity you're interested in, and seeing what the imports/exports are - you'll be able to track it down to its source.

Still, I came back to say I found a bug with your transponder system: when targeting a fleet, you are immediately let known who they are: I saw a "blip", used active sensor thing, and saw a gray fleet, I clicked on them, and on the top of my screen this showed: "Laying an intercept course for Pirate attack fleet", but when I mouseover they are still "Unindentified fleet", I guess this is a bug and not intended.

Thanks for the report - noted, will fix that up.
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Cyan Leader

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Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #907 on: November 20, 2015, 09:09:08 PM »

About the AI discussion, Alex, have you considered nerfing the AI for different difficulties?

Personally I think the AI in the game in Starsector is excellent. Many other games that I play, including AAAs, have much worse and simpler AI and it is just baffling how much of a gap there is between a great AI like yours and theirs. But I think that it might be too good for some players. It definitely makes the game harder when they can perfectly tell if their missile will connect or not when you vent and all the other hidden calculations they do on flux that helps them out on combat. Again, don't get me wrong, I love that they are that good, it's just that it might be too much for some players, especially those that are starting with the game and haven't wrapped their heads around the flux system and all.

Therefore, maybe a simpler AI might be useful for some difficulties? Decreasing their stats only won't do much when they can still completely outplay newbies.
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Tarran

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Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #908 on: November 20, 2015, 09:17:00 PM »

An amusing thing I noticed: Outside of Hyperspace, running dark, I got dinged and chased by a Tri-Tachyon patrol. They got upset about me running with the transponder off, understandably, in Tri-tachyon territory.

Except... this is right outside of Arcadia, which has no Tri-Tachyon bases... and this patrol is, apparently, from the Valhalla system. So I think either some Tri officers are on drugs or something, or that might be a slight bug. :P
« Last Edit: November 20, 2015, 09:18:52 PM by Tarran »
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The Soldier

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Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #909 on: November 20, 2015, 09:20:48 PM »

Thanks for the report - noted, will fix that up.
Of course, I post this in the bug forums and it gets noticed here before there. :P


The AI is pretty damn good.  In larger fleet battles, though, they can't seem to multitask very well - I usually see the AI set up an Assault order somewhere in space that sends 90% of their fleet to that area.  The AI really needs to learn how to divide and conquer, much like how the player does (which means, don't send your entire fleet to one half of the map - the other half of the enemy fleet could just swing around and pull off a massive flank, which is the usual situation in most large battles with me).

@Tarran
The Tri-Tachyon usually doesn't give a damn if your Transponder is on or off.  I guess there's separate levels of how hidden you are to how much the AI can care?

I think patrols generally go as far as they can before having to turn back and refuel.  Arcadia to Valhalla isn't too far, comparatively to the other star systems (like Penelope's Star, really far out).
« Last Edit: November 20, 2015, 09:23:39 PM by The Soldier »
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Thaago

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Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #910 on: November 20, 2015, 09:29:23 PM »

I've made massive amounts of money by smuggling supplies, but it was all opportunistic. I just saw that a market was buying them for 700(!) and then emergency burned to the nearest other world. They had a couple hundred for sale for 80 - I bought those legally, then sold them smuggling. A month later the investigator wants 120k to shut up. Bye bye faction rep!

I've taken to just carrying around extra fuel and supplies (bought a Buffalo for just that). My main activity is hunting bounties, but I make about an equal amount opportunistically selling supplies (and buying them on the cheap). I could probably make a better margin by having a few hundred heavy machinery and finding a mission, but the risk is much higher - I can always "eat" the supplies over time, but wtf am I going to do with heavy machinery if the market goes away?
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Tarran

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Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #911 on: November 20, 2015, 09:32:10 PM »

@Tarran
The Tri-Tachyon usually doesn't give a damn if your Transponder is on or off.  I guess there's separate levels of how hidden you are to how much the AI can care?

I think patrols generally go as far as they can before having to turn back and refuel.  Arcadia to Valhalla isn't too far, comparatively to the other star systems (like Penelope's Star, really far out).
Maybe, though I will note that the Tri-Tachyon was Suspicious with me, so that might be why they're giving me sass.

Yeah, I'm not really concerned about why they're at Arcadia. I'm concerned as to how they could possibly consider the system their space! It's... quite a stretch to assume that it is.
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TheDTYP

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Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #912 on: November 20, 2015, 09:41:55 PM »

I finally got to play the update and this was my experience:

I smuggled the drugs I started off with (Smuggler build) to Coatl or something, got a ton of money, then bought an Enforcer and a level 4, level 7 combat Officer.

I got another mission telling me to bring 10 drugs to Ragnar or something, so I decided "Screw it, I want money" so off I went.

A bunch of pirates sneak up on me immediately upon leaving the system, but they ask me for my drugs in return for, yaknow, not killing me.

I told them to go eff themselves.

They immediately killed me and I rage quit.

This is gonna take some getting used to. but at least the game is hard again! My only complaint is that some of the star systems are really... empty. Are these placeholders for the Exploration update?
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Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #913 on: November 20, 2015, 10:06:34 PM »

About the AI discussion, Alex, have you considered nerfing the AI for different difficulties?

I've thought about it, yeah, but not to the level of thinking everything through.

Would it be just difficulty-based? Would officer levels play into it? Would it only affect the enemies, or your side as well? Would the AI looking stupid at lower difficulties color the impressions of someone playing the game for the first time on "easy"?

I think it's an interesting topic and I'm not sure I have good answers to the various questions.



In larger fleet battles, though, they can't seem to multitask very well - I usually see the AI set up an Assault order somewhere in space that sends 90% of their fleet to that area.  The AI really needs to learn how to divide and conquer, much like how the player does (which means, don't send your entire fleet to one half of the map - the other half of the enemy fleet could just swing around and pull off a massive flank, which is the usual situation in most large battles with me).

(Just a point of clarification: this is the job of the "admiral AI", which is distinct from the ship AI.)


Thanks for the report - noted, will fix that up.
Of course, I post this in the bug forums and it gets noticed here before there. :P

I did see it there; thanks for the report :) Just keeping it marked as unread until I can get to it, and it's a slightly different variation of the issue, too.

I got another mission telling me to bring 10 drugs to Ragnar or something, so I decided "Screw it, I want money" so off I went.

A bunch of pirates sneak up on me immediately upon leaving the system, but they ask me for my drugs in return for, yaknow, not killing me.

I told them to go eff themselves.

They immediately killed me and I rage quit.

Moral of the story - drugs are bad for you? :)


This is gonna take some getting used to. but at least the game is hard again! My only complaint is that some of the star systems are really... empty. Are these placeholders for the Exploration update?

There's a bunch of lore there, in case you're inclined to check that out. Also, bounty targets tend to hide out there. But, yeah, in general, I think the game needs more empty star systems alongside populated ones. Just for general feel reasons - although if there's stuff to do there exploration-wise, then that'd be all that much better.
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joekungfu

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Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #914 on: November 20, 2015, 10:12:14 PM »

i've been playing/following the game since .53a and was really looking forward to this release, and it did not disappoint :) i've spent the better part of the day playing & having fun, and I just have this to say:

you're nerfing safety override, right, alex?! I see you talking about it in the thread, even implying how good it is, but it's not just good: it's amazing.

I was actually having a bit of difficulty getting started, getting plowed by 2-3 frigate pirate fleets... that was until I took the harpoon pods off of my starter wolf, threw on SO, and proceeded to obliterate any and all pirates near effortlessly.

You just get so much flux/mobility/kiting potential that it really kinda makes any (early, at least) challenge the game can throw at you a complete joke, especially since bounties seem to scale with the player's progression.

I stopped turning my transponder off or going dark because it didnt matter if a fleet surprised me. just "attempt to disengage" and "full retreat" and then just do whatever, make a sandwich, knit a sweater, watch some TV... it almost doesn't matter what you do, because you will most likely be able to retreat.

like, really, with a very slight modification to your starter ship you can take a single frigate almost as far as you want; you just go so much faster than virtually every other ship you'll be up against. oh, and it can teleport. i'm level 30 now, and have 750k creds, and have pretty much exclusively used my newbie pulse laser wolf with safety override.

yeah, occasionally I ran into cargo issues, so I tried a buffalo. Unfortunately, that won't allow you to escape unscathed from surprise lovin' fleets in the same fashion that I outlined above. So, what did I do? Of course: more frigates with safety override! In fact, I just tested this by attacking the biggest, meanest faction fleet I could find in 2 minutes on the world map. One of my AI's SO wolfs actually kept getting hit in the ass by salamanders, but since it can frikin teleport and had the initial velocity from SO/flux bonus, it still managed to escape with basically no hull damage, along with my other ships.

Why use anything else? Once I get enough friendship with tri-tachyon to buy my aurora, I'll be able to go from starter frig—directly to unstoppable, faceroll, sector-crushing-mega-fleet.

Sure, 1v15ing a bunch of frigates might be difficult even with the insane mobility, but here's what you do: disengage. the enemy fleet will try coming at you from the sides of the map and this gives plenty enough separation from the blob of frigs/fighters that are actually able to become a threat. pick off a few ships, finish your retreat, and then use the invincibility you get after retreating to kick on emergency burn(if you even have to) and GTFO/prepare to re-engage

you might lose more CR as a result of fighting + disengaging rather than fighting outright, but it's trivial to repair & whittle down much, much larger fleets than yourself this way. I mean, I guess you could say it's player choice to play so cheesy and do stuff like this, but, at least in the last version, I needed a hyperion to progress this far and kill so easily with just one frigate. Not to mention, the game kind of invites you to do it, considering how getting started can be a bit of a sticky situation with just the one ship, no skills, and limited credits to buy supplies and fuel.

tl;dr safety override OP plz nerf
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