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Author Topic: [0.97a] Nexerelin v0.11.1b "Clausewitz Protocol" (update 2024-02-11)  (Read 3043897 times)

Histidine

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Re: [0.9.1a] Nexerelin v0.9.1g "Double-Zero Agent" (update 2019-05-26)
« Reply #2115 on: May 28, 2019, 04:26:39 AM »

okwtony: Nexerelin 0.9.1g is only compatible with Starsector 0.9. You'll have to use Nexerelin 0.9.1c or else update Starsector.

(1)
What are the mechanisms in place to prevent snowballing from the player? i.e the richer you are, the stronger you are, the easier it is to get even richer, faster.

Are there some looming menaces, big invasions? Or a boost to an enemy faction, anything on that? I fear that after a while it is 'I steamroll all opposition'.
As % of the total Sector population you control gets larger, other factions are more likely to have negative diplomatic events with you. This effect increases in Starfarer mode.
There's also a mechanic where enemy factions get free invasion fleets against your markets as you capture theirs, although if you can beat those off it doesn't exactly do much I guess.

Other than that, there aren't any specific features at present. Maybe I should implement that income tax I've been considering.
I also have an "endgame event" planned, but that's not an anti-snowball mechanic so much as a "the final task before you win" mechanic.

I don't want to add any mechanics that are too gamey, so my options regarding this are a bit limited. If you have ideas, I'd be interested!

Quote
(2) I guess Steelclad is not compatible with Nexerelin?
Not known to be compatible, no support is provided. Though I won't stop you from trying to run them together and see what catches fire!
« Last Edit: May 28, 2019, 06:15:44 PM by Histidine »
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eidolad

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Re: [0.9.1a] Nexerelin v0.9.1g "Double-Zero Agent" (update 2019-05-26)
« Reply #2116 on: May 28, 2019, 05:31:09 PM »

As a new-ish Nex player, the only somewhat-immersion breaking thing for me is the player's ability to take several thousand Marines...enter a sector, and take every market in it in one fell swoop.  I flipped two systems in this manner...before running into a Hegemony military market with no less than six thousand defending Marines.  Hoo boy.

So perhaps a "cool down" for player invasions?  I.e. those Marines just went planetside, lost one out of six...the troops need some chow, downtime, re-gearing, honor their dead, etc.

Or perhaps some code that causes the other markets in the system to call an emergency draft/levy of their reservists that exist for a cool-down period.  I.e. certainly a planetary administrator, when seeing another planet fall to a new fleet in the system, is going to call a Code Zulu...but this is likely more work to accomplish than an invasion cool-down...

(Kinda like in Mount and Blade/Prophesy of Pendor mod where you blitz a bunch of castles immediately when elected Marshal...something the AI has little resistance/scripting to deal with)
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BringerofBabies

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Re: [0.9.1a] Nexerelin v0.9.1g "Double-Zero Agent" (update 2019-05-26)
« Reply #2117 on: May 28, 2019, 05:59:40 PM »

Or perhaps some of your surviving marines could be consumed as a local occupation force, quantity scaling to the size of the captured market. In exchange, that market could be given a stability boost for one month due to the presence of said force, which would help protect newly captured markets from decivilization. This way you get an enforced cooldown unless you are vastly overprepared, but the cooldown also benefits you. If you don't have enough marines for the occupation force, then you don't get the stability benefit (and still have to go buy more marines).
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Midnight Kitsune

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Re: [0.9.1a] Nexerelin v0.9.1g "Double-Zero Agent" (update 2019-05-26)
« Reply #2118 on: May 28, 2019, 09:57:11 PM »

Or perhaps some of your surviving marines could be consumed as a local occupation force, quantity scaling to the size of the captured market. In exchange, that market could be given a stability boost for one month due to the presence of said force, which would help protect newly captured markets from decivilization. This way you get an enforced cooldown unless you are vastly overprepared, but the cooldown also benefits you. If you don't have enough marines for the occupation force, then you don't get the stability benefit (and still have to go buy more marines).
Unless you could set the amount of marines to use during the invasion, I could see optimal play being spacing/ storing unneeded marines and picking them up later on to prevent having to get more after the invasion.
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BringerofBabies

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Re: [0.9.1a] Nexerelin v0.9.1g "Double-Zero Agent" (update 2019-05-26)
« Reply #2119 on: May 29, 2019, 05:47:20 AM »

I could have worded that better. In my head, I was thinking that marines are only taken from you if you have enough for the occupation force - the having to buy more regardless is that you either gave up marines for a stability bonus, or you are just running low on marines in general. In any case, the balancing goal for this mechanic would be a flexible not-quite-cooldown that still lets you capture all kinds of lightly defended markets in succession, but requires you to either slow down or come overly prepared if you wanted to capture multiple markets with medium/heavy defenses.
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eidolad

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Re: [0.9.1a] Nexerelin v0.9.1g "Double-Zero Agent" (update 2019-05-26)
« Reply #2120 on: May 29, 2019, 04:42:52 PM »

The player in the late game that can afford to bring 1K marines minimum (hi me!) would just be delayed a bit if they have to buy the transport, and the additional Marines...which is why I would suggest some sort of cooldown on the invasion action itself.  (not to mention, paying a huge number  of Marine salaries all this time without being burdened...)

Or take the "agent" route:  the player must hire a "Ground Force Commander" (GFC) and can only have one.  That ground force commander would be given an order to invade.  If that invasion is successful, then the GFC will be permanently assigned to garrison the planet along with 100 of the marines on board (hope you brought enough!).

Player must then find/hire another commander (and oh so incidentally, there is a week cooldown before one appears at another planet...darn).

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vorpal+5

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Re: [0.9.1a] Nexerelin v0.9.1g "Double-Zero Agent" (update 2019-05-26)
« Reply #2121 on: May 30, 2019, 12:59:00 AM »

Yes, limiting invasions through the consumption of a special commander would be best, as it can't be exploited really.

I have started a new campaign with Nexerelin and Steelclad. Here are my comments:
http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=12119.msg250256#new
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eidolad

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Re: [0.9.1a] Nexerelin v0.9.1g "Double-Zero Agent" (update 2019-05-26)
« Reply #2122 on: May 30, 2019, 05:39:24 PM »

My Diable Avionics faction has 24 markets...the rest have 7 or less.  All due to Mr. Player and his battlecruiser weight fleet seems to quite often find undefended battlestations...and always seems to be bring 1000 marines too.  I've not had to fight a system defense fleet very often on my own.

a) once a star system no longer has defensive fleets for ONE planet...it is likely true that ALL the planets in the sector are equally likely to be similarly vulnerable, and can fall with the first.

b) I should point out that my original post about "system blitzes" by the player are in randomly generated maps:  there is a ton of systems that have more than one faction.  So when those factions go to war:  the system defense fleets are fighting one another to death constantly even if there are no invasions going on.  THUS the condition in item a) occurs quite often. 

Suggested workarounds: 

a) system defense fleets in the same system as a hostile planet should go turtle and return to the battlestation's vicinity unless supporting an invasion in that system.  There is no point to defend the solar system if the battlestation above a populated planet falls in the meantime...

b) keep the default pursuit range/movement radius of a system defense fleet assigned for close support to the battlestation to be smaller.  Any fleet must earn the right to visit an unsupported battlestation.  Said another way:  a battlestation, (even a [REDACTED] star fortress, CANNOT live long without its primary system defense fleet if a player fleet let by battlecruisers and heavy carriers shows up.

c) all battlestations will have permanent ship garrisons (this is questionable due to balance...this would push the delay before player could invade a planet out...since the difference in trying to take down a battlestation that has a defending fleet, vs. one that doesn't, is potentially huge.

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vorpal+5

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Re: [0.9.1a] Nexerelin v0.9.1g "Double-Zero Agent" (update 2019-05-26)
« Reply #2123 on: May 31, 2019, 12:10:33 AM »

Regarding (c) I think it makes sense. You can add a 'garrison' of ships that only spawn when the Battlestation is attacked.

But in any case, this is a common problem in 4X, the stronger you are, the stronger you get, faster and faster (snowballing). Several games throw a major crisis when the player is significantly in the lead. Like when you own half of the markets, report that huge unknown fleets are coming. They will try to obliterate colonies. If you manage to fight off that, then you are declared the winner (even if you can continue playing). There is no point trying to have as a victory condition 'owns all markets', only 1% of players will try that, in practice.
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eidolad

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Re: [0.9.1a] Nexerelin v0.9.1g "Double-Zero Agent" (update 2019-05-26)
« Reply #2124 on: May 31, 2019, 11:14:08 AM »

Agreed on the 4x issue of "player reaching I-can-win strength" in a sandbox type game...suddenly the whole map is reduced to oblivious targets.  And indeed most players take a victory lap to pounce on a few systems...then start thinking about the mods they'll include in the next new game instance.  Which is what I love about sandbox gaming...let's just stir up new ingredients and see what we get.  Oh, and starships.

Perhaps a variation on the item (c):  the battlestation "may" have a powerful garrison.  Give some uncertainty (that unfortunately can be save-scummed around oh well).

Another potential:  powered down ambush fleet near the base:  a max-stealth configuration.  You only see it when very very close...it powers up to pursue only if vastly superior to player.  Otherwise...waits and joins the battlestation in defense.

edit:  I adjust my notion about "random Nexerelin maps being easier" to point out that in the early game...those single systems that have multiple factions warring against each other are VERY dangerous places in the early game.  Pretty much no-go zones if one is doing a lone frigate start if two or more don't like the player.  Like me this evening as I get trounced repeatedly by the Tri-Tachyon defenders as I try to farm the Pirate planet and find myself restarting in a Wayfarer.  Well anyway it is an upgrade from my poor lone Frigate that I started in :)
« Last Edit: May 31, 2019, 08:35:08 PM by eidolad »
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vorpal+5

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Re: [0.9.1a] Nexerelin v0.9.1g "Double-Zero Agent" (update 2019-05-26)
« Reply #2125 on: June 01, 2019, 01:49:52 AM »

How can you boost the defense of a planet? If I dump 1000 marines on its market, will it strengthen it?
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SpacePoliticianAndaZealot

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Re: [0.9.1a] Nexerelin v0.9.1g "Double-Zero Agent" (update 2019-05-26)
« Reply #2126 on: June 01, 2019, 02:23:53 PM »

How can you boost the defense of a planet? If I dump 1000 marines on its market, will it strengthen it?
I don't think so, because marines dumped into resource stockpiles are, well, treated as resources only, while anything you put in storage is not supposed to interact with the outside world in any way.

However, something like this would be a great thing to implement, perhaps as a special procurement contract to bolster planet x's garrison?

Otherwise, without a planetary shield built, most colonies will remain rather vulnerable to the grand invasion fleets.
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vorpal+5

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Re: [0.9.1a] Nexerelin v0.9.1g "Double-Zero Agent" (update 2019-05-26)
« Reply #2127 on: June 01, 2019, 08:21:23 PM »

Adding on that, in general and in game design (if you read some of the websites talking of that, like Gamasutra.com) it is generally a good idea to provide a tool for the player (even if a difficult to use tool) for most if not all of the problems he encounters.

So what I'm saying is if a player want to help a colony, then adding the possibility to strengthen it directly would be nice, gameplay wise.

Now, Colony Defense can get huge as we know, given that the coefficients multiply between themselves. So what about something that is really significant for small to medium colonies, where defense is between 50 and 1000? Adding to this defense, as a flat value, outside of any multiplier the number of Marines in the 'Open Market' ONLY would be a nice little boost.

So for example I see a weak colony of my friend from the Hegemony is at 150 and will be raided. I add 200 Marines to the open market, and now it is at 350. And as that's a flat value, I can't get to stupid values. Remember that a Military World can go to 10.0000, so we should be safe here, while providing a nice little tool to the player.
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Lord_Asmodeus

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Re: [0.9.1a] Nexerelin v0.9.1g "Double-Zero Agent" (update 2019-05-26)
« Reply #2128 on: June 02, 2019, 07:20:38 AM »

It sort of feels like, since player colonies are the only ones which need to have a commerce industrial area constructed in order to have markets the player can access it puts player colonies at a disadvantage, since unlike NPC colonies you have to devote one of your limited industrial slots to giving your own colonies a market, where no other faction does. Unless I'm missing something?
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Histidine

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Re: [0.9.1a] Nexerelin v0.9.1g "Double-Zero Agent" (update 2019-05-26)
« Reply #2129 on: June 02, 2019, 07:59:04 AM »

For now I've added a mechanic where an invasion event causes a buff to defenses of other hostile markets in the same system, and markets belonging to the target faction (or their allies) Sector-wide.
(This is the same system as the one that adds defense to a market if you raid it repeatedly)

I might also figure out something in terms of generating a fleet that stays with the battlestation and supports it, although I'm not sure how it'd work right now. (Gameplay considerations include not making it so you can never raid a planet because there's a station-supported fleet near it)
Alex may be looking at having weak patrols hide near the station if a big fleet approaches, so that would help (when it comes far off in the future).

As for selling marines to buff local defenses: I could do something along those lines, but the most likely implementation would be pretty transient (bonus lasts up to next major economy interval). Also I'm not sure how often it'd actually be used over the player just fighting any hostile invasion fleet directly (which is a more fun way to do it anyway).

It sort of feels like, since player colonies are the only ones which need to have a commerce industrial area constructed in order to have markets the player can access it puts player colonies at a disadvantage, since unlike NPC colonies you have to devote one of your limited industrial slots to giving your own colonies a market, where no other faction does. Unless I'm missing something?
Yeah, that's a known issue (search the 0.9.1 announcement thread for "commerce" to see some recent discussion on it).
Though in any case it's a vanilla thing that I don't plan to mod right now; we'll see what happens in the future.
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