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Author Topic: [0.65.2aRC2] Simple Rebal Mod, Alpha 6  (Read 21881 times)

xenoargh

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Re: <Release> Simple Rebal Mod, Alpha 3 (for 0.65.2a)
« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2015, 11:13:42 PM »

Played for a bit tonight, thinking through the next steps. 

Right now, Advanced Optics is a major buff; 200 SU puts Tac Lasers into the Medium range bands, and puts the Graviton Beam back into the Large range bands, at 950, and the HIL is at 1100, putting it up there with everything except the Gauss.  It's about the only thing that will make a beam-boat Wolf really work well as a kite-machine in this alpha, vs. other stuff, but it works.

So I'm not sure whether to debuff it to 100 SU or make it cost more OPs or to leave it alone, yet.  I think that I'm leaning towards 100 SU; then it's useful, but not quite so ubiquitous.  I don't think the right answer is to peel Beam range back, personally; PD / LRPD are about where they really need to be, in order to be relevant and different, imo.

Ballistics in general still seem like they might need a bit more range to push them to where they need to be vs. Beams, but it's close to working.  I will try the 100 SU change to Advanced Optics and see if that fixes that impression.

Will definitely have to look hard at pew-pew when I get done looking at that issue; I never really used them much in Vanilla, frankly, other than occasionally using the Autopulse (but then largely if nothing better was around or the ship had HEF). 

I also have no idea whether Atropos sucks atm or not; I suspect it's OP at current regen but I haven't found any in the game... darn u, Tritachyon, you're the worst arms-dealers evar :P

I do feel much better about the missiles in general this round, though.  They're probably not "done", but they're starting to be in the "arguably OK" range.

They're a very valid part of the battle, and their burst damage is very valuable, but they aren't the end-all-be-all, serious PD can handle big barrages still, and a combined-arms approach is working quite nicely.

Oh, and!  The cutest thing in 0.65, imo, was the new drone tender; it's not terrifically useful in Vanilla, but it's quite useful atm, now that the Mining Lasers have some teeth.

Anyhow, further constructive input from people who have actually played this Alpha would be appreciated; it's very helpful to me to hear where the weak spots are when I'm doing this kind of rough-cut rebal :)
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xenoargh

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Re: <Release> Simple Rebal Mod, Alpha 3 (for 0.65.2a)
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2015, 12:50:03 PM »

OK, it appears that the Advanced Optics debuff worked pretty well.  It's still valuable, but not an obvious win, past early game.

So now it's down to marginal buff / debuff, I think; the main themes appear to be working without anything being very obviously OP, in terms of Beams / Ballistics in general. 

I need to look at the pew-pew guns now and get them in line.  Getting closer, though :)

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Histidine

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Re: <Release> Simple Rebal Mod, Alpha 3 (for 0.65.2a)
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2015, 04:47:58 PM »

I always considered it a bit odd that Advanced Optics isn't percentage-based.
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xenoargh

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Re: <Release> Simple Rebal Mod, Alpha 3 (for 0.65.2a)
« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2015, 06:35:23 PM »

Yeah, that and the OP bonuses, where it really should be math.max(<bonus>,1.0).  It has always bugged me that that doesn't work like it should.

The problem with the percentage on Advanced Optics is that it stretches the long-ranged ones quite a lot; 10% would mean that the Tac Laser got 715, rather than 750 after this last change, but HIL would go to 990.  The higher the percentage goes, the worse it gets.

Really, there is no simple win on that; 100 means that it can be consistent, though, and I can adjust around it.  200 felt like too much, though.  Anyhow, I'm about done with the latest changes; it's basically just that and tweaking the ranges on the pew-pew.  Not sure that's working quite right yet.
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xenoargh

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Re: [0.65.2a] Simple Rebal Mod, Alpha 4
« Reply #19 on: February 16, 2015, 11:17:15 AM »

Alpha 4 is now available.

Ballistic Weapons:
Fixed bug with LMG.

Energy Weapons:
Increased ranges for IR Pulse and Pulse Lasers.

Hull Mods:
Advanced Optics only gives 100 SU now.

Skills/Aptitudes:
Technology Aptitude gives +1 OP, flat, per level, plus 1% per level.
Mechanical Engineering and Computer Systems gives +1 OP, flat, per level, plus 1% per level.

Other:
Now in JAR format (all source is included though, as usual for my work).

This pretty much fixed up pew-pew, other than looking at Flux/DPS and flavor.  Missiles feel pretty good to me at this point, balance-wise; they're present and deadly, but they aren't completely dominant and other things can compete.

I feel like the overall balance is really starting to firm up here; there are a few areas where I think it can be tightened but it's not bad.  I'd like to get some more opinions before I start looking at ship balance issues.
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Ahne

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Re: [0.65.2a] Simple Rebal Mod, Alpha 4
« Reply #20 on: February 16, 2015, 11:49:18 AM »

Sorry but really thats the worst "rebalance" mod i have seen so far for starsector.

At the moment i read about infinite ammo for missles i stopped taking this rebalance stuff serious.
The simple idea is just silly why would you do that.

I can't even..what the.. i give up.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2015, 11:51:43 AM by Ahne »
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xenoargh

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Re: [0.65.2a] Simple Rebal Mod, Alpha 4
« Reply #21 on: February 16, 2015, 12:01:41 PM »

That was a core game-design decision made by Alex; I'm just trying to make it balanced and consistent :)

Anyhow, since you clearly haven't played it, I'd suggest doing so for a couple of hours, then come back to the conversation.  If X is OP, let's hear about how it works in practice, rather than "I am sure X is OP because... well, because", which is not a good way to balance anything :)
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Thaago

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Re: [0.65.2a] Simple Rebal Mod, Alpha 4
« Reply #22 on: February 16, 2015, 01:31:59 PM »

...
Skills/Aptitudes:
Technology Aptitude gives +1 OP, flat, per level, plus 1% per level.
Mechanical Engineering and Computer Systems gives +1 OP, flat, per level, plus 1% per level.
...

I see what you're doing here, but I don't think it will work without fractional OP. This would give a Wolf or Lasher 95 OP at level 10, a 90% increase (which will probably make the ships something like 4 times more deadly). I honestly think +30% OP at level 10 is ok.
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xenoargh

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Re: [0.65.2a] Simple Rebal Mod, Alpha 4
« Reply #23 on: February 16, 2015, 02:16:01 PM »

From what I've seen thus far, in practical play... it really doesn't move the dial much, in late-game Bounty engagements vs. Combat / Tech 10 opponents.

I may be wrong there; I'm not using a Frigate horde strat in testing atm, I went Tech/Combat first.  I'll test that and see. 

Honestly, I don't expect much change; most of the things you can shoehorn into a Frigate with a 50-point difference in OPs are player-useful, but not of massive benefit to an AI-piloted Frigate.  I guess the question is whether one-ship-at-a-time solo creeps back in, but thus far, that's not what I'm seeing here- the missile changes more-or-less put a final end to that as a thing, because it really increased the importance of having buddies and overlapping PD.

Really, I think that where this question gets interesting is what happens to Destroyers and Cruisers, where that margin really has helped them to stay relevant.  Not quite solo-Medusa-vs-Defense-Fleet levels of relevant, but "useful in their conceptual roles" relevant, for sure.
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Thaago

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Re: [0.65.2a] Simple Rebal Mod, Alpha 4
« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2015, 03:08:08 PM »

Is the AI even using the extra OP? I don't know whether AI variants will fill up OP or if its all just wasted.

If nothing else, the 30 extra OP means that the vents and caps will be at 20 each (from the other tech skills) and augmented engines gives a 40 speed boost. Thats on top of the extra 30% OP.
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Toxcity

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Re: [0.65.2a] Simple Rebal Mod, Alpha 4
« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2015, 06:34:38 PM »

So I've played some of the new version and it still needs some work.

The starter wolf is still powerful (mostly the phase lance and the fact that your fighting (D) ships), but has been reigned in by the beam range changes. The only thing is that Advanced Optics doesn't feel worth it with a 100 flat range increase. Maybe change it back to 200 and make beams generate more flux?

Eventually I switched out the wolf for an Afflictor and a Hermes.

One thing with the missile changes in this version, is that it makes playing with a non-phase ship seem impossible. Enemies would release their harpoons as soon as they were in range / the cooldown was up. This was especially noticeable in larger bounties, where cruisers could have 3 harpoon pods, and there could be multiple destroyers with harpoon racks.

Annihilators are also still ridiculous despite their speed decrease. Maybe try reducing the number fired per burst from 20 to 10 or back to 5.

Also regarding missiles is the fact that harpoon racks cost 10 OP now. They're not even that great considering that their burst fire and cooldown mean that you might waste them overkilling a frigate, and not be able to use them to break a heavier ships armor.

If you want to do regenerating missiles I recommend you change them to not all use the same method as the salamander in vanilla. There are standard ammo regeneration and clips, use them! It would even give Expanded Missile Racks a purpose.

There are also some non missile related problems too. For one, the LAG has better DPS than the Assault Chaingun. While the chaingun has 200 more range, the LAG generates less flux and has better accuracy. PD weapons like the Dual Flak Cannon also have a pretty long-range, which while it isn't a complete negative, it means they may waste flux that would be better used on more offensive weapons. Maybe decrease their range, or make them PD-ONLY.

Despite all this, I recommend people try out the mod! Diverse feedback will only make it better.

EDIT: This was played with version 1.2a so some of this may not be relevant.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2015, 06:40:37 PM by Toxcity »
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xenoargh

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Re: [0.65.2a] Simple Rebal Mod, Alpha 4
« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2015, 10:04:04 PM »

Quote
Is the AI even using the extra OP? I don't know whether AI variants will fill up OP or if its all just wasted.
Not yet; rebal on that has to await a general feeling that the balance is reasonable.  That said, some of the AI ships in high-end Bounties probably aren't actually "fair" in any real sense, plus they're being flown by maxed-skills Captains.

Quote
The starter wolf is still powerful (mostly the phase lance and the fact that your fighting (D) ships), but has been reigned in by the beam range changes. The only thing is that Advanced Optics doesn't feel worth it with a 100 flat range increase. Maybe change it back to 200 and make beams generate more flux?
I'm actually looking at another way to equalize it, by making ITU / DTC apply to Beam ranges.  This appears to work pretty well, but the issue is what it's doing to Destroyer / Frigate range bands; right now, DTC means 35/50% more range for the biggest ships; it might be healthier if ITU gives a flat 25% and DTC gives only 30/35%, giving Cruisers and capital ships a small, but not overwhelming, range advantage, especially as they're mounting more Medium / Large weapons that really push it out.  I'm still testing these ideas, but it appears to me that this keeps Beams in the game as meaningful players.  Advanced Optics might come down in OP cost a little, or Beam efficiency might go up a little, too; those ideas are on the table.  I'm finding Beams are, at the high end, playing an important, but not dominant, role with this change thus far; they're support and they can kill, but they aren't primary assault, but are pressure weapons that can put a foe in a position where they have to drop shields to free up enough Flux to survive missile strikes, which is an interesting dynamic.  Anyhow, not done evaluating that yet.

Quote
This was played with version 1.2a so some of this may not be relevant.
Yeah, I nerfed the Annihilators, changed the Harpoon mechanics and a bunch of other nerf / buff in Alpha 3; I think that fixed a lot of the worst suck there.  That said, I don't think it's a done deal; if Annihilators still need to be peeled back, I'm open to it; I just think that it's much closer to reasonable atm- missiles feel like they're dangerous, but not overwhelming, and Harpoons are definitely in the mix.

Quote
Despite all this, I recommend people try out the mod! Diverse feedback will only make it better.
Agreed, that's the whole point :)

Quote
One thing with the missile changes in this version, is that it makes playing with a non-phase ship seem impossible. Enemies would release their harpoons as soon as they were in range / the cooldown was up. This was especially noticeable in larger bounties, where cruisers could have 3 harpoon pods, and there could be multiple destroyers with harpoon racks.
Well, most of the changes Alex has been making are aimed, to some degree, at pushing people out of soloing whole fleets; I'm generally running with an early-game fleet of 2-3 Frigates and a Destroyer, then I transitioned to Destroyers with a Cruiser and a couple of Frigates to cap points; now I'm running a battleship with a Cruiser escort. 

One thing that is a little messed up, from where I sit, is how much you have to give up, in terms of Logistics costs, to get a single battleship with a single escort that matters.  Even though battleships are all quite awesome, I think Thaago's points about relative costs are important there, in terms of final adjustments.  For example, I can look hard at the relative efficiency / DPS of Large weapons, where they're primarily operating in ranges smaller vessels can't touch, but are Battleships a buy, vs. just smacking out tons of missiles from a Frigate swarm?  I don't have a firm answer on that atm.

Anyhow, I'll go look at a new start and make sure it's still feeling reasonable. 

I think it'll work, so long as you aren't biting off more than you can chew; the Wolf, in human hands, ought to be able to take on at least two-three AI Frigates (more, if they're crap, like (D) Hounds, etc.) without much trouble.  The issue here may be largely that the so-called "easy" start is actually not working terribly well right now; that is a fixable issue, though.  I've been thinking about that but I want to solve the core issues first.

I'm pretty much at the late midgame stage in my current playthrough, so I've seen everything up to AI Onslaughts with max buffs; things like the rocket launchers don't look terribly scary then, compared to the other scary things.  One thing that definitely occurs to me over and over again with the current changes, though, is that I really miss the Hephag from Vacuum, where it was a high-end Dual Flak, rather than being just another HE gun that has always seemed a bit lost in the shuffle.  I don't think changing its role that dramatically would be within the goals of this project, though.
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Re: [0.65.2a] Simple Rebal Mod, Alpha 5
« Reply #27 on: February 18, 2015, 10:00:38 AM »

Alpha 5 has been released.

Energy Weapons:
Small tweaks to ranges and a few other things.
Last of the ammo / clip mechanics have been dropped, including for Pulse Lasers like the Guardian (we'll see how that goes, but thus far, it isn't scary).

Ballistic Weapons:
Arbalest has been given a distinctive role as a hard-hitting, slow-firing Kinetic AC.
Ammunition / Clip mechanics are gone, other than the LMG/HMGs (and probably the Needlers will get into that category after further testing).
Small range tweaks here and there.

Missile Weapons:
Swarmers, Atropos and Hurricane got their reload nerfed.  Hurricane might need to get pushed back, but we'll see.
Annhilators do 15 rockets per burst now, so they require a little more focus to be deadly.

Hull Mods:
Stabilized Shields is now an 85%, not 50%, Flux reduction for shields that are on.  This means that it is always a win vs. more Vents, for that very specific cost.
Integrated Targeting Unit and Dedicated Targeting Core both boost Beam ranges now.  Advanced Optics range boost is still 100 SU; this works out, I think, allowing Beams to be in range but not Ultimate Doomsday Kiting weapons.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2015, 10:04:58 AM by xenoargh »
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Re: [0.65.2aRC2] Simple Rebal Mod, Alpha 6
« Reply #28 on: February 18, 2015, 11:56:21 PM »

Alpha 6 has been released.

Ballistic Weapons:
Thumper's behavior is now sane.  Oops!
Arbalest has been buffed, and is now effective in its role.

Missiles:
Cosmetic improvements to the Atropos' projectile.

Gameplay:
The population sizes for Jangala, Tibacena have been raised, to 6.  It is pretty ridiculous that the most-powerful faction in the game has a capital with fewer people than my hometown does, 200 years after the Fall.
Volturn's population is now 7, befitting it's status as the most Earth-like planet in the current Sector.  It also has more Aquaculture / Volturnian Lobster production (although it's being done in a cruddy way atm; I will fix that with code properly later).  This doesn't necessarily make it completely able to feed itself, but it's no longer a nonsensical basket case (seriously, after 2 centuries, everybody who was going to starve to death on a world where you can go fishing to stay alive... is dead already).  It keeps large_refugee_population and all the negatives, so it's still unstable, just not starving all the time.
Sindria is no longer affected by large_refugee_population, so it will be more stable.
Tibacena is now a Regional Capital, making it more stable.  Expect to actually be able to find some Tritachyon stuff to buy now.


Philosophical Stuff about the next steps, if you're interested
Spoiler
Core Gameplay:
I think that the first job, of getting all of the core weapons reasonably balanced and differentiated without creating any huge loopholes, is largely done at this point.  There are arguable issues here and there, but it's feeling pretty decent.  There are things where I really would like to see more fundamental change, like how the Hephag in Vacuum was the high-end AOE Flak, not just a mildly-duplicative HE gun that used a Large Slot, but that's a big deal and I'm not sure if that stays in the scope of the project.  Anyhow, I'm reasonably happy thus far; having learned all the hard-way lessons the first time, with Vacuum, there hasn't been a bunch of power-creep this time.

So, now it's time to look at the ships while continuing to screw down the places where weapon balance can still be improved. 

Where to start is a bit of a puzzler, but probably I need to work Frigates upwards.  They and Destroyers have gotten more relevant with the changes in their total OPs from Tech, which is great, but they're still having some fundamental problems here and there.

For example, the poor Hound is basically a two-trick pony, and neither of them involve using the Chain Gun- it can use a Heavy Mauler or a Hypervelocity Driver and be relevant as an annoying kiting ship that you cannot ignore and cannot kill easily.  But the single turret is a huge liability and its System is a complete joke.  I think the Hound is weaker now than it's ever been, and that sucks (imo) because it's one of the classic designs of the game.  I'm thinking it needs a 360 turret so that it's missile defense isn't zero, and a System that helps it rather than feeling like a consolation prize for breathing.  There are a bunch of ways to skin that cat.

That's just one example. 

While I'd say that there aren't a ton of ships that I feel are totally worthless, and some have improved to the point where they are serious contenders now, there are a few where I'm going to look at them, now that I'm feeling that weapons are getting close to a reasonable balance overall.

For example, the Hammerhead still kind of sucks, compared to the Medusa and the Enforcer; it is weaker both on offense and defense, and weaker on offense than the Sunder (although, personally, I think the Sunder got a little too nerfed by Alex's changes to its Flux pool / Vent).  How to make it better is probably a combination of things- perhaps it gets Burn 5 and a smallish armor buff?  It doesn't need a lot to be relevant; just enough of a difference that people are genuinely torn between it and something obviously sexy.

The other major core stuff that I need to evaluate is Hull Mods that are essentially useless or detrimental to play now, like Expanded Missile Racks and the ammo buffs and the Systems that are pretty iffy now. 

I feel like Fast Missile Racks is balanced pretty well, now that it's a true save-it-for-the-right-time buff, but there are others where I'm not so happy.

Campaign Gameplay:
I'd like to talk about the Independents.  I'm a bit torn about what's going on with them atm, and probably should leave changes to them off the table, but it's driving me a bit crazy to see how they're implemented.  Right now, Pirates transmogrify into Independents when they "change flags", rather than taking on a true false flag.  There is no way for players to blow their cover or deal with them in any meaningful way without getting into huge relationship trouble with the "real" Independents.  This is one of those things where it's obviously placeholder and I'm kind of torn, because it's relatively easy to address but it's going to get wrecked whenever Alex gets around to an official fix.

Moreover, there is nowhere where there is a big enough / stable-enough market for Independent goods to generate, meaning certain types of ships aren't really showing up in markets.  This is also an obvious problem with Tritachyon as well, but hopefully the Tibacena change fixed that.

There are also a bunch of issues with how the markets work, that really cannot be fixed with anything but code.  I'm very leery of getting into that side of things until Alex's stuff is more stable, though, and I feel like this is an iffy task when I'm just trying to get balance tuned a little better.  I may just let things slide.
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Ahne

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Re: [0.65.2aRC2] Simple Rebal Mod, Alpha 6
« Reply #29 on: February 21, 2015, 06:03:06 AM »

...and i thought you made the decision to take away all ammunition from missles only in your rebalance mod...but it was alex core game design decision holy cow,not cool.

I will try your mod out and i really hope it works out to be balanced, i mean, missles were broken as *** and to imagine that there is no ammunition shortage is hilarious. I have no idea how to deal with that, missle are so op. I hope its balanced...
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