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Author Topic: Starsector Ship Tiers  (Read 122250 times)

Megas

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Re: Starsector Ship Tiers
« Reply #195 on: November 15, 2015, 10:20:17 AM »

Remember Star Control 2 (or Ur-Quan Masters) - single player campaign or head-to-head battles.  For the latter, pick your ships and other options then fight.  If Starsector graduated from single-player, following Star Control 2 would be the next logical step.
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Dark.Revenant

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Re: Starsector Ship Tiers
« Reply #196 on: November 15, 2015, 01:12:02 PM »

What I'm talking about is standalone multiplayer battles; 1 fleet vs 1 fleet.
Initially 1 Player v 1 Player, but Many vs Many might be viable in the more distant future.

It'd go something like this:

  • Main menu -> multiplayer
  • Connect to master server to retrieve live players list. Interface for chatting(via master server), and selecting an opponent.
  • Once opponent (peer) is chosen, and successfully connected to -> game configuration screen. (various game options & fleet building screen)
  • peers share game/fleet configurations, and sync input states.
  • begin synced* game simulation (*deterministic lockstep; buffer inputs & transmit, UDP -> concatenate un-acked packets for minimum latency)
  • (for the future)transmit user inputs to the master server too (TCP), allowing for archival of games, and even near-realtime spectating of games in-progress.
  • (for the future)back-end database (hosted on the master server) for recording games, player stats, managing leagues etc

SSME provides the means of hooking into SS classes for enforcing determinism, input capture/replacement, injecting the new front-end menus, and mangling the various parts of the game logic that will need it.
Though this is highly coupled to internal SS code, so to avoid wasted effort I shan't progress any further with it until 0.7 is released.

The master server stuff is work-in-progress.
The deterministic lockstep simulation engine is planned out in my head, and can be implemented stand-alone as it's not fundamentally tied to SS.
The other back-end spectating/persistence stuff are just ideas for 'added value' features that would be possible to pull off with such a multiplayer model.

Kind of derailed this thread; sorry.
Back on topic!

Enforcer for life!
Honestly, its hardpoint selection + armour + speed make it totally awesome! A very powerful & flexible yet forgiving ship.
Better than a Lasher at.... Lashing.
Better than a Dominator at.... Dominating.

What I found is that many vs many won't be possible with a lock-step model.  The reason for this is that a single person with poor network performance will utterly destroy playability.  Sure, you can avoid this by just increasing the buffer/delay time, but then everything is lagged even more.  In realistic situation models, you could easily end up with a delay of half a second.  Workable with 1v1 because you'd have poor quality regardless of network model in that case, but when you bring more people into it, you're looking at long delays or a switch to an authoritative server.
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Megas

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Re: Starsector Ship Tiers
« Reply #197 on: November 15, 2015, 02:43:26 PM »

Enforcer for life!
Honestly, its hardpoint selection + armour + speed make it totally awesome! A very powerful & flexible yet forgiving ship.
Better than a Lasher at.... Lashing.
Better than a Dominator at.... Dominating.
Enforcer is very good.  It is ubiquitous, and you can give it mediocre or good weapons and it still performs well.  Also has Burn Drive, an excellent ship system.  When burn speed is not a factor, I let the AI pilot several Enforcers because they kite, missile spam, and patch up after battle faster than Medusa, the only other stock destroyer that can fight as well.  (As a flagship, I prefer Medusa, but for AI, Enforcer is more practical.)

Lasher is awful at the moment.  No medium weapons, terrible shield, fragile, suicidal ship system combined with mediocre flux stats.

I disagree with Enforcer dominating better than Dominator.  Dominator takes almost everything good about the Enforcer and scales it up.

High-tech has no cruiser-sized version of Medusa or Paragon that can compete with and fight like a Dominator or even Eagle.  (Aurora needs missiles, Apogee gives up either firepower or shot range, and Doom is... unconventional.)
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Cycerin

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Re: Starsector Ship Tiers
« Reply #198 on: November 16, 2015, 02:17:58 AM »

Dominator's main problem is the heavy emphasis on the twin large hardpoints for DPS, compared to the enforcer's turreted mediums. To make a good AI Dominator you need to get as much out of its 3 medium missiles and small ballistics as possible, because it will rarely make any good use of the large hardpoints unless fighting other cruisers.
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Megas

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Re: Starsector Ship Tiers
« Reply #199 on: November 16, 2015, 08:31:33 AM »

That assumes Dominator uses (Dual) Flak for mediums.  If medium mounts get artillery like Maulers, it can focus fire a lot of artillery at targets.  Ever since Vulcan cannon was buffed, it is sufficient for most PD, and great as a finisher when it is safe to approach.  Yes, dual flak is better PD, but I rarely get to situations where dual flak can defend against things that Vulcans and shield could not.  Also, if medium mounts get assault (or so-called "fire support") weapons, then missiles need not always be Annihilators.

For max DPS, I suppose a Dominator can use heavy ballistics, Maulers, and three light needlers upfront, but that hurts frontal PD.

Dominator's main weakness is sub-par agility and top speed (without Burn Drive) and much of its firepower can only be directed forward.

As for AI, it uses my favorite configuration fairly well, which is Mjolnirs, Maulers, Vulcans, and Pilums.
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Surge

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Re: Starsector Ship Tiers
« Reply #200 on: November 20, 2015, 11:46:26 AM »

>implying lasher isn't the greatest low tech ship in the game

fite me m8.

Seriously though the Lasher really is *** amazing, it has very generous forward firepower with 3 ballistics (5 if you forgo PD) and 2 missiles. You can give it a very versatile loadout with some scary damage potential. Sure it may not manage the flux of 2x ACs, 2x Annihilators, and 1x LAG very well but most frigates have flux issues so it's nothing new. Sure there are technically more dangerous frigates like the Tempest and Wolf but the Lasher is cheap , dependable, relies on easier to find ballistic weapons, and is pretty capable in the hands of the AI. It's not so much that the Lasher kills everything or laughs at incoming fire it's more that it's cheap and expendable while still being more than just cannon fodder.

The only low tech ship that I would say can compare to the Lasher in terms of sheer usefulness is the Enforcer, and even that I'm iffy about since the Enforcer lacks the Lasher's agility to disengage and vent.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2015, 11:47:57 AM by Surge »
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Thaago

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Re: Starsector Ship Tiers
« Reply #201 on: November 20, 2015, 12:30:12 PM »

I haven't played with a lasher yet, but I hope you are right :D. Previous version it was very bad, but the ones before that it was decent. I've heard its good with SO? Anyone try it yet?
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Gothars

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Re: Starsector Ship Tiers
« Reply #202 on: November 20, 2015, 12:35:58 PM »

The Hammerhead at least feels way more powerful than before. The standard variant is awesome, pops frigates in a snap.
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SpacePoliticianAndaZealot

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Re: Starsector Ship Tiers
« Reply #203 on: November 20, 2015, 12:39:41 PM »

The Hammerhead at least feels way more powerful than before. The standard variant is awesome, pops frigates in a snap.
Standard? You mean Balanced? The one with HMGs?
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Tartiflette

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Re: Starsector Ship Tiers
« Reply #204 on: November 20, 2015, 12:43:22 PM »

Saying that the Hammerhead and the Lasher are good with Safety Override is a HUUUUGE understatement. Enforcers are pretty damn good too with it.
My twin Assault Chaingun, twin Light Needlers, twin LMG Hammerheads with Extended Shield, Hardened Subsystems and Safety Override and good officers just make problems disappear.
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Aeson

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Re: Starsector Ship Tiers
« Reply #205 on: November 20, 2015, 02:26:41 PM »

Personally, I'd vote to just close this thread and start a new tier list for 0.7; there's enough differences that a lot of things are probably going to shift around, and I suspect it'll be easier to just start over than to edit the list. Plus, it'll mean that any posts arguing for a specific tier placement for certain ships will be for the current version whereas this thread has ~14 pages of justifications based on the old version.
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HELMUT

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Re: Starsector Ship Tiers
« Reply #206 on: November 20, 2015, 03:37:33 PM »

Most ships haven't changed that much since 0.65. Only the Hammerhead and Lasher were buffed since then. Not really worth making another thread because of those two.

Hammerhead is better but still doesn't beat the Enforcer in my opinion. It benefit from SO quite a bit though, more so than the Enforcer, as the later can't no longer vent to stop its burn drive, which is big deal.

Lasher with SO become a monster. The flux reduction from accelerated ammo feeder coupled with Safety override allow it to unleash its full DPS unabashedly. It's basically Starsector's berserker class, you throw it at an enemy's face and watch it rip it apart.

I have to test it more to see whether or not it's worth promoting it to tier 2. If not, it's still a very solid tier 3. It's still a frigate, while its firepower can even scare bigger targets, it can also be disabled quite easily.
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OOZ662

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Re: Starsector Ship Tiers
« Reply #207 on: November 20, 2015, 08:17:54 PM »

Been using a Dominator with Mjols, Salamanders, HMGs, and LMG/Vulcans with Aux Thrusters and SO. As long as something doesn't get around and punch your engines you can pretty methodically tear things to shreds.
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Euqocelbbog

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Re: Starsector Ship Tiers
« Reply #208 on: November 20, 2015, 08:44:42 PM »

The new Gryphon is pretty nice. With the Squall MLRS and harpoons in the other missile slots and with max missile specialization it can take down cruisers in a few seconds at almost no risk to itself and capital ships have just about the same experience with a few more seconds, especially if the Gryphon has any allies to pin down the victim. It's a bit situational though, at least with this setup; it's power is limited in fights not involving cruisers/capital ships and the AI seems to handle it very poorly (rather than firing large salvos at medium range, the AI will tend to just fire a steady and useless stream from far away).
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The Soldier

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Re: Starsector Ship Tiers
« Reply #209 on: November 20, 2015, 09:32:27 PM »

I'll just take this excerpt from one of my posts:
As a side note, I discovered the most OP loadout for the Dominator - a pair of Mark Xi Autocannons and triple Harpoons Pods, LAGs and LACs in the 4 front turrets and a pair of Flak Cannons and Vulcans in the rear to round out the PD.  This gives the enemy (destroyers and all variants of cruiser) simply two options - overload and take a *** ton of Harpoons to the face, or take a *** ton of Harpoons to the face.  Fire the Harpoon Pods (just 2 are needed for most destroyers, bar the Enforcer, for insta-nuke) when they're close to overloading at the same time when you fire off a burst from the Mark IX Autocannons.  Voila, a freshly-made wreck.
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before, but the Dominator is batsht OP with that loadout.  It can take on multiple destroyers of all shapes and sizes at the same time and come out on top without a scratch.  It can even take on a couple of cruisers if you concentrate your fire enough and use your shield sparingly.  I'd almost consider bumping it up to Tier 1, but somewhere in the middle seems better.  Eh.

No idea if this is contributing to anything, though - just thought I'd drop by and see what you think.
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