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Author Topic: Observations and Suggestions  (Read 12573 times)

Velox

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Re: Observations and Suggestions
« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2015, 02:13:31 AM »

So with ABs completely cut out, and thus the vast majority of any modern carrier complement cut out, you have a handful of technical ratings left. I'd even posit that, despite someone (can't remember who) saying it quite cynically (once again, I'm discovering a pattern here), it might just be easier for the crew to feed fighters that are sufficiently busted into the autofacs for the sake of acquiring raw materials, and they DO try to hand-repair slightly-less damaged craft (accounting for being able to, in certain situations, see a fighter wing with one or two damaged craft).

Nah, not cynical, just tickled by the idea of a ship where the drone fighters ALWAYS just fly directly into great big grinders on recovery, and then at the other end of a churning/bubbling/clanging autofactory new ones just go "ptoo!" out into space.  And hey, if you and two hundred generations of your ancestors have been on a generation ship for centuries, maybe that's exactly how you'd do it!  My point was who knows, and there are much more interesting ways of explaining crew counts than getting into nasty personal arguments over who has a better understanding of the "One True Model For All Naval Operations Ever Anywhere In Water Or Space" or measuring relative sprite sizes or something.  :)
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angrytigerp

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Re: Observations and Suggestions
« Reply #31 on: January 11, 2015, 11:08:25 AM »

So with ABs completely cut out, and thus the vast majority of any modern carrier complement cut out, you have a handful of technical ratings left. I'd even posit that, despite someone (can't remember who) saying it quite cynically (once again, I'm discovering a pattern here), it might just be easier for the crew to feed fighters that are sufficiently busted into the autofacs for the sake of acquiring raw materials, and they DO try to hand-repair slightly-less damaged craft (accounting for being able to, in certain situations, see a fighter wing with one or two damaged craft).

Nah, not cynical, just tickled by the idea of a ship where the drone fighters ALWAYS just fly directly into great big grinders on recovery, and then at the other end of a churning/bubbling/clanging autofactory new ones just go "ptoo!" out into space.  And hey, if you and two hundred generations of your ancestors have been on a generation ship for centuries, maybe that's exactly how you'd do it!  My point was who knows, and there are much more interesting ways of explaining crew counts than getting into nasty personal arguments over who has a better understanding of the "One True Model For All Naval Operations Ever Anywhere In Water Or Space" or measuring relative sprite sizes or something.  :)
That's what I was getting at, you know? Maybe manufacturing/fabrication has advanced so insanely that all you need is raw material to feed in what is basically a 3D printer millennia ahead of our tech level. Or... maybe it's just that Alex didn't want to make Carriers, already a niche-y ship when direct combat is so prevalent, even less useful by doubling or tripling its in-game crew requirements. No matter how futuristic a game might be, gameplay and balance always trumps technical accuracy -- for good games, at least.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2015, 12:30:16 PM by angrytigerp »
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TrashMan

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Re: Observations and Suggestions
« Reply #32 on: January 11, 2015, 11:14:39 AM »

Quote
Because Space Magic?
Frankly I hate space magic. It's lazy and dishonest and does not make for great depth.
Just about anything involving space in entertainment is fiction and/or fantasy, like it or not.  People who want to write a story or game that aims to be realistic should avoid space unless it is a simulator.

Starsector breaks reality in enough ways, but that's okay.  All that matters is firing flashy weapons and watching ships go boom!

Black and white fallacy that ignores the area between extremes. Realism... actually believability or versimilitude is something on a scale. A fiction/fantasy world can be more or less believable.
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TrashMan

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Re: Observations and Suggestions
« Reply #33 on: January 11, 2015, 11:27:32 AM »

It is true that the Iowa was modernized. It is also true that even after its modernization it was an obsolete unit which could have been mostly replaced by lighter, more modern units with little loss of capability.

Actually, the navy didn't (and still doesn't have) a more effective artillery platform. Bullets are far cheaper than missiles and the Iowa can fire a LOT of them.


Carriers do need (and always needed) more crew than another ship of similar size. This is a iron-clad fact. If anything, SS ships are carrier/battleship hybrids, having a lot of weapons and armor to boot, meaning they would require even MORE crew. After all, it does the job of two different ships.
While a carrier would have less crew for manning guns (since it has less of them) it would require a large air crew; vice-versa for the battleship.



So even tough big ship = big crew (generally. You acknowledge that, but then immediately downplay the tanker example.)
so even tough aircraft becoming more complex and advanced has produced more requirement for maintaiance, and thus the AIR CREW numbers have been increasing - you want to ignore that too "because SS is WW2". Well ,when you point out high-tech fighters with energy beams and complex electronics in WW2, you can make that argument.
Directional radar is an "energy beam" and requires relatively complex electronics, especially for the time period, in order to function, and yet there are several types of fighter equipped with one or more varieties of airborne radar which were in service during the second world war, on both sides of the conflict. Look up the night fighter variants of many aircraft from the mid-1940s onwards, and they'll be equipped with airborne radars. Examples include variants of the Messerschmitt Bf-110, de Havilland Mosquito, Junkers Ju-88, Lockheed P-38 Lightning, Gruman F6F Hellcat, and Northrup P-61 Black Widow, among many others.

Of course, if by "energy beam" you mean a weaponized laser or science fiction's "plasma" weapons, I would point out to you that your vaunted modern fighter jets fail to meet this requirement just as much as the WWII-era aircraft do.[/quote]

You got a point, or you just love to nitpick?



Quote
Beyond that, "high-tech" is relative. P-51 Mustangs and B-29 Superfortresses were "high-tech" at the time of introduction and are "high-tech" relative to older types; so too were all-metal monoplanes and aircraft which used control surfaces rather than wing-warping, or which could even get off the ground, at various times. F-14 Tomcats are "high-tech" relative to F-86 Sabres and obsolete by comparison to F-22 Raptors. Where is this magical marker which distinguishes that which is "high-tech" from that which is not?

Again? You know de-rail by going after word definitions?
Geez Cpt. Obvoious, no, I didn't know high-tech is somewhat relative to the moment. Tell me more.
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angrytigerp

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Re: Observations and Suggestions
« Reply #34 on: January 11, 2015, 12:25:35 PM »

It is true that the Iowa was modernized. It is also true that even after its modernization it was an obsolete unit which could have been mostly replaced by lighter, more modern units with little loss of capability.

Actually, the navy didn't (and still doesn't have) a more effective artillery platform. Bullets are far cheaper than missiles and the Iowa can fire a LOT of them.


Carriers do need (and always needed) more crew than another ship of similar size. This is a iron-clad fact. If anything, SS ships are carrier/battleship hybrids, having a lot of weapons and armor to boot, meaning they would require even MORE crew. After all, it does the job of two different ships.
While a carrier would have less crew for manning guns (since it has less of them) it would require a large air crew; vice-versa for the battleship.

This fixation on crew numbers of archaic ships based on tasking is kind of... layman, in actuality.

My ship has two 30mm cannons on board, and two RAM launchers. Both are fully autonomous pieces of gear, and are basically run by the computer; true, the 30mms have a place for personnel in the barbette itself, but it is NOT needed for functionality, and full functionality at that. However, by your metric, you'd expect that we require, what, a guy per gun for the actual shooting, a loading crew, a rangefinder, fire controlmen guiding its shots, etc... when all of it can be done by a single FC in Combat. No, a 30mm might not be equivalent to a battleship's primary guns, but it's certainly an analogue to, say, the 40mm AA guns of WWII... and here, we see each gun needing 3 people (visible) per mount, plus there's probably a few chaining the ammo from the mags out of sight of the picture. Once again: On board my ship, we have these, and we don't need 4, 5 people manning the gun, loading it manually, etc. etc., and it is a hell of a lot more accurate (given more modern fire control systems) than a Bofors would have been. Ergo, more capability for less manpower required.

Please, PLEASE stop pointing at historic, or even more modern, levels of manning and using that as proof of your claims. Or, if you do, then have the wherewithal to accept the rebuttal that, while you are situationally right, you also ignore technological advancement, and as I said a few posts ago, seem to assume that all advancement has stagnated in an era where we somehow figured out FTL flight.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2015, 12:36:18 PM by angrytigerp »
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Aeson

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Re: Observations and Suggestions
« Reply #35 on: January 11, 2015, 04:11:29 PM »

It is true that the Iowa was modernized. It is also true that even after its modernization it was an obsolete unit which could have been mostly replaced by lighter, more modern units with little loss of capability.
Actually, the navy didn't (and still doesn't have) a more effective artillery platform. Bullets are far cheaper than missiles and the Iowa can fire a LOT of them.
Hence 'mostly replaced' rather than 'entirely replaced.' However, I would point out that there is an ongoing debate as to whether or not that role is worth keeping battleships or battleship-like vessels around for, with many feeling that the greater accuracy of modern weapons can adequately replace the greater volume of fire offered by the battleships without necessitating the added expense of keeping battleships in the fleet or in the reserves. I would further add that it seems as though most or all other modern navies and states have decided that the role of heavy naval gunfire support is not sufficiently valuable to justify keeping battleships in the fleet.

You got a point, or you just love to nitpick?
You requested an example of a WWII aircraft equipped with 'complex electronics' and 'energy beams.' I gave you several examples. Granted, 'complex' is relative; certainly, the radars used at the time would no longer be considered advanced and would not use electronics which are complex by modern standards, but at the time, they were state-of-the-art.

Carriers do need (and always needed) more crew than another ship of similar size. This is a iron-clad fact. If anything, SS ships are carrier/battleship hybrids, having a lot of weapons and armor to boot, meaning they would require even MORE crew. After all, it does the job of two different ships.
While a carrier would have less crew for manning guns (since it has less of them) it would require a large air crew; vice-versa for the battleship.
You are insistent that this 'carriers require more crew than other ships of similar size and always will' belief you hold is factual, and yet you have offered little solid support for this belief, aside from a single comparison between a battleship which was 30 years older and considerably smaller than the carrier to which you compared it. Meanwhile, you ignore counterexamples showing that battleships and carriers which were contemporaries of one another and similar in physical size had crews of similar size. You ignore that modern cruisers have crew sizes which, if the crew size were scaled by tonnage to match the carrier, tend to place the cruiser crews at about the same size as the carrier crews.

Beyond that, you seem blind to the fact that there are other carriers in the world aside from the US Nimtiz-class carriers, several of which, such as the Russian carrier Admiral Kuznetsov, have crew sizes which fail to support your claim (at least, assuming the crew complements on Wikipedia are accurate). The USS Iowa was 887'3" in length and 108'2" in beam with a standard displacement of 45,000 tons, and as originally commissioned carried a crew of 2788 men (151 officers and 2637 enlisted, according to Wikipedia). The Russian carrier (sorry, "heavy aircraft-carrying cruiser") Admiral Kuznetzov has a crew complement of ~1700 men with an air wing of about ~650, and is listed as 1001' in overall length (890' at the waterline) and 236' in overall beam (115' at the waterline), with a displacement of 43,000 tons standard. Look, an example of a modern carrier which is larger than the battleship and has a smaller crew than the battleship originally carried; even with your ~1800 crew number for the modernized Iowa, it still doesn't have that much larger a crew. Or we can consider the British HMS Ark Royal (Audacious-class, 1955-1979; numbers given are from Wikipedia and are listed as 'as built,' though the ship was apparently enlarged significantly shortly before it was decommissioned), which was 804' in length and 112' in beam with a displacement of 36,800 tons, and carried 2640 men (including the air wing), which looks like it should scale rather nicely given that the crew of the HMS Ark Royal is ~95% that of the USS Iowa while the ship dimensions imply that the HMS Ark Royal is about ~94% the size of the USS Iowa (by the rather simplistic and likely not terribly accurate measure of multiplying the ship length by the ship beam).

I will also add that there are some sets of ships you could use as examples which might better suit your argument. For example, if we were to compare the British Invicible-class light aircraft carriers to the US Ticonderoga-class, we would see that the Ticonderogas have crews of about 400 men, a length of 567', a beam of 55', and a displacement of about 9,600 long tons at full load, while the Invincibles have crews of about 1000 men, a length of about 686', a beam of about 118', and a displacement of 22,000 tonnes (~21650 long tons); if you scale the Ticonderoga's crew up by the ratio of the ship lengths, the Ticonderoga crew becomes about 484 men for the scaled-up cruiser, while if you scale by the ratio of the beams you get a crew of about 858 men for the scaled-up cruiser; if you scale by the ratio of the bounding areas suggested by the length and beam dimensions, you get a crew of 1038 men for the scaled up cruiser; and if you scale by the ratio of the displacements you get a crew of 902 men for the scaled-up cruiser. Scaling by the ratio of the displacements or by the ratio of the length-beam products are probably more reasonable, but there is at least a logical path that can be followed for the beam-ratio and length-ratio scaling, and the length-ratio scaling suggests ~50% less crew for the scaled-up cruiser than the carrier would have (of course, the beam-ratio scaling suggests ~15% less crew and neither of the other scalings produce more than a 10% difference in crew size, and I rather suspect that the later two scaling methods are more likely to scale the cruiser to a similar size as the carrier than the former two methods are). Similarly, the length scaling and displacement scaling for the Russian Kirov-class battlecruiser to the Admiral Kuznetsov aircraft carrier's size could be used to argue for significant differences in the crew sizes, though the beam scaling and the length-beam product scaling suggest perhaps a ~10-15% differences in crew sizes.
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Thaago

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Re: Observations and Suggestions
« Reply #36 on: January 11, 2015, 07:15:16 PM »


Hey you guys!

I've been reading the conversation and really enjoying the insights into naval operations and thoughts on crew - the relationships between combat personnel, maintenance and operations, handling of bleeding-edge technology, and the like!

But, also, you're totally arguing, and it'd be awfully nice if you'd stop.

...


And the rest. +10

...

Please, PLEASE stop pointing at historic, or even more modern, levels of manning and using that as proof of your claims. Or, if you do, then have the wherewithal to accept the rebuttal that, while you are situationally right, you also ignore technological advancement, and as I said a few posts ago, seem to assume that all advancement has stagnated in an era where we somehow figured out FTL flight.

Indeed.

To go back to the point that sparked off this whole kerfluffle: Fighters do take a large amount of supplies to deploy, but they also have significant advantages. In particular, they have an absolutely miniscule logistics footprint - you can make an exceedingly large fighter fleet very easily. One of my favorite strategies if I have the money and fighters is to simply turn my CR recovery off outside of combat and bring extra wings - if you aren't recharching CR, you don't need to bring the supplies.
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TrashMan

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Re: Observations and Suggestions
« Reply #37 on: January 12, 2015, 04:31:06 AM »

This fixation on crew numbers of archaic ships based on tasking is kind of... layman, in actuality.

Please, PLEASE stop pointing at historic, or even more modern, levels of manning and using that as proof of your claims. Or, if you do, then have the wherewithal to accept the rebuttal that, while you are situationally right, you also ignore technological advancement, and as I said a few posts ago, seem to assume that all advancement has stagnated in an era where we somehow figured out FTL flight.

Archaic ships? Pick any ship. I don't care.
You have modern small carriers and other modern ships for comparisons.

Automation CAN and does reduce crew numbers, but only up to a point. You're always need people, if nothing else, then as a failsafe and backup.
So yes, carrier would see reduced crew number - but so would other ships. So carriers would still require more.


Or if you want a comparison, a fat man and a normal man both go on a diet. Both loose 20kg. The fat man is still fatter.
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TrashMan

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Re: Observations and Suggestions
« Reply #38 on: January 12, 2015, 04:52:23 AM »

You are insistent that this 'carriers require more crew than other ships of similar size and always will' belief you hold is factual, and yet you have offered little solid support for this belief, aside from a single comparison between a battleship which was 30 years older and considerably smaller than the carrier to which you compared it. Meanwhile, you ignore counterexamples showing that battleships and carriers which were contemporaries of one another and similar in physical size had crews of similar size. You ignore that modern cruisers have crew sizes which, if the crew size were scaled by tonnage to match the carrier, tend to place the cruiser crews at about the same size as the carrier crews.

Weren't you are the one asserting that size isn't a direct indicator? What makes you think that crew scales up exactly like that?
"Scaling up" doesn't work, because that's now how ship designs work.
Remember that tanker? Yes, I know it's not a military ship. And I don't care, because that's exactly the point - purpose defines crew more than size. It's WHAT THE SIZE IS USED FOR (In the case of an aircraft carrier, carrying, servicing aircraft)


Quote
Beyond that, you seem blind to the fact that there are other carriers in the world aside from the US Nimtiz-class carriers, several of which, such as the Russian carrier Admiral Kuznetsov, have crew sizes which fail to support your claim (at least, assuming the crew complements on Wikipedia are accurate). The USS Iowa was 887'3" in length and 108'2" in beam with a standard displacement of 45,000 tons, and as originally commissioned carried a crew of 2788 men (151 officers and 2637 enlisted, according to Wikipedia). The Russian carrier (sorry, "heavy aircraft-carrying cruiser") Admiral Kuznetzov has a crew complement of ~1700 men with an air wing of about ~650, and is listed as 1001' in overall length (890' at the waterline) and 236' in overall beam (115' at the waterline), with a displacement of 43,000 tons standard. Look, an example of a modern carrier which is larger than the battleship and has a smaller crew than the battleship originally carried; even with your ~1800 crew number for the modernized Iowa, it still doesn't have that much larger a crew.

Aren't you the one now comparing ship from different periods?
Modernized Iowa does show a significant difference 1800 << 1700+650. I'd say that's significant enough.



If you want to believe that everything in SS is fully automated on ships, then what's the point of crew?
Why is crew required to work on the ship and maintain it, but magically NOT required to maintain fighters?

Look, we clearly won't agree on this matter.
So let's just agree to disagree.
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SafariJohn

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Re: Observations and Suggestions
« Reply #39 on: January 12, 2015, 04:59:30 AM »

This fixation on crew numbers of archaic ships based on tasking is kind of... layman, in actuality.

Please, PLEASE stop pointing at historic, or even more modern, levels of manning and using that as proof of your claims. Or, if you do, then have the wherewithal to accept the rebuttal that, while you are situationally right, you also ignore technological advancement, and as I said a few posts ago, seem to assume that all advancement has stagnated in an era where we somehow figured out FTL flight.

Archaic ships? Pick any ship. I don't care.
You have modern small carriers and other modern ships for comparisons.

Automation CAN and does reduce crew numbers, but only up to a point. You're always need people, if nothing else, then as a failsafe and backup.
So yes, carrier would see reduced crew number - but so would other ships. So carriers would still require more.


Or if you want a comparison, a fat man and a normal man both go on a diet. Both loose 20kg. The fat man is still fatter.


There is only one limit to automation. Zero. A ship can be run by only an AI and any repairs and the like are either done by mobile robots or integrated nanobots. You could even have 1 AI controlling multiple ships, even further "reducing the crew".

Obviously Starsector doesn't use fully automated crews, since AIs as intelligent as people were banned by the Domain.


I'm pretty sure that if two people of different weights started on the same diet, the fatter person would lose more weight/mass.
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