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Author Topic: How to get a non-exploitable time pressure on combat  (Read 41451 times)

Vind

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Re: How to get a non-exploitable time pressure on combat
« Reply #45 on: December 07, 2014, 10:42:20 PM »

So many crutches around AI and now proposed timers upon timers. Any timer mechanic is boon to stupid AI which will just defend vs player by blobbing ships together. Also AI never deploys reasonable amount of ships vs player so whole deploy as little as possible idea never works. Reduce speed of frigates and double  flux dissipation speed for them. Timers is ideal way to rob player of supplies for nothing but seriously if "usual" non-bounty fights must be bad for collecting supplies player will do nothing in anticipation of next bounty just sit and lose supplies for doing nothing. This is not really cool gameplay. Waiting and losing money until something will come up. Timers will not help much except creating false pressure and timers will not affect AI in any way as it deploys as much as it can without any suppy drain consideration. Why create something which is not improving gameplay at all? If player want to cheat it will cheat by kiting and any such mechanic.
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SCC

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Re: How to get a non-exploitable time pressure on combat
« Reply #46 on: December 08, 2014, 01:05:24 AM »

What about capital ships? Do they start ticking down as well? I suppose there could be an "if this ship is in play, battle time doesn't tick down" rule; possibly made clear via built-in hullmod, similar to the Hyperon's "high maintenance". Alternatively, capital ships could just tick down as well.
Make a built-in "Fleet HQ" hullmod, which makes the cruiser/capital having it heavily extent your own BT counter, so forcing opposing side to either eliminate that ship or just to destroy your whole fleet quickly. But with two restrictions: it needs to be your flagship (not transferred, but for entirety of the battle, from start to end) and it doesn't work if the enemy have equivalent/greater force.

Midnight Kitsune

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Re: How to get a non-exploitable time pressure on combat
« Reply #47 on: December 08, 2014, 02:28:08 AM »

In the meantime, I ended up trying something simpler: "transfer command" now reduces the peak effectiveness time of the new flagship by the spent peak effectiveness of the old flagship, and further docks the new flagship for 10% CR. (Changing the command structure in battle is serious business!)
How do you explain a timer that is meant to show the "battle stresses" on the ship's systems suddenly hitting zero just because someone new came abroad? And before you start explaining that it is the "shock" of a new captain or command crew taking over, in the lore you have linked the CR timer to the reactor core.
Brawler codex entry:
"Typically deployed to beef up system police forces and port authority security, the Brawler-class frigate trades mobility for impressive firepower, armor, and a destroyer-grade power generator. A robust design, it's one of the few frigates able to stay in battle indefinitely without suffering combat-stress-induced system malfunctions."
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Tartiflette

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Re: How to get a non-exploitable time pressure on combat
« Reply #48 on: December 08, 2014, 03:16:42 AM »

Battle timers/transfers costs/CR degradation...
This all seems very complicated in the end, why not using an already existing mechanic to CR: soft CR and hard CR?

In short, the idea would be to make over-deploying have a great short term impact:

 - Upon it's first deployment, a ship would get a soft CR drop of say 30% for a cruiser. This "soft CR drop" has no consequences while in the same battle rounds, and will only be used a a "floor" for the CR spent when the fleet get back to the campaign map. Soft CR would be recovered at twice the normal rate for free. It only prevent a ship from deploying in several battles in quick succession. Think of it as the crew needing some sleep. If you deploy a ship that hasn't recovered his soft CR in a new battle, the Soft CR drop becomes Hard CR drop.

 - Deploying would no longer have a CR cost, or a peak efficiency timer: instead all ships would start loosing Hard CR down from the start at slow individual rates. The "hard CR" is very much the same as the current CR system, the only difference with the flux is that it doesn't stack with Soft CR but overlap it. Hard CR would cost and take time to recover, so not taking any damage will still make the CR recovery faster and cheaper. The average CR drop from the continuous degradation should be around the same values we have now for a typical 3-4 minutes battle. Skills and hullmods could enhance that of course. The fact that it isn't a hard limit timer should make the battles feel more organic as your ships slowly get less efficient instead of breaking down rapidly when you run out of time.

 - Transfer command would no longer be possible except in two cases: Your ship is destroyed and the shuttle retreated, or you managed to retreat with your ship. In both cases you can only transfer to a un-deployed ship: you better always keep at least one spare frigate then. If the battlefield stay empty because you only deployed your frigate and retreated to switch, the enemy take control of the battlefield and can claim victory. It get some CR recovery for gaining a tactical advantage and ALL the player ships take a small CR hit from the morale drop.

So in the end, deploying an overwhelming force cost you more than if you deployed just the necessary. It prevent you from engaging multiple enemies in a row unless you manage your fleet right, but also avoid strange things like having a cruiser costing a thousand credits to recover after launching a single missile to a fleeing damaged freighter. Kiting is still possible, but will also cost you as you whole fleet will take a small CR hit unless you deploy some allies to maintain you presence on the battlefield.

[PS]
Another method to avoid abusing ship transfers would be to make it takes more time: a progress bar could represent the time your avatar takes to get to the shuttle, and another one from the shuttle to the bridge. It could also lock the weapons while the shuttle depart the old ship and approach the new one, as nobody want to shoot down the commander. Or the shuttle could simply be shot down, so you have to bring you ships close to avoid taking risks.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2014, 03:26:28 AM by Tartiflette »
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Gothars

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Re: How to get a non-exploitable time pressure on combat
« Reply #49 on: December 08, 2014, 05:51:47 AM »

Huh, would you believe I ended up thinking about the exact same thing some time after making my previous post? Even down to details like basing "battle time" on deployment points and getting less of it for reinforcements. Talk about "great minds think alike" :D Ahem.

Ha! That does speak for the logic of it, doesn't it? :)

Another advantage is that it would stop the flood of warnings you sometimes get about your ships losing CR. That could get really obnoxious if all ships contributed to it.

What about capital ships? Do they start ticking down as well? I suppose there could be an "if this ship is in play, battle time doesn't tick down" rule; possibly made clear via built-in hullmod, similar to the Hyperon's "high maintenance". Alternatively, capital ships could just tick down as well.

Mh. I don't see the justification for extra rules here. What would be the advantage of caps stopping BT?

It might force caps in a somewhat defensive role, since it would be viable to outlast numerically superior non-capital enemies. Maybe for something like the Paragon, since it is in that role anyway, and powerful computers would fit the ship.



selling the lore on this seems like it will be difficult
Electronic Warfare
Hmm. That could make sense, but the feel of it is weird - like, all of a sudden, the "real" fight is taking place on a playing field you don't have access to.

Mh, I like it. Most fights will be ended via physical weaponry long before BT has run out, so I would not call that the "real fight". Otherwise you could argue that your crews maintenance battle against the failing of the ships systems is the "real" battle now.
And you do have access, although limited, via the amount of ships - or processing power - you deploy. This could easily be thematically expanded.
As Wyvern said, hullmods would be renamed to something more fitting. A BT expansion skill for solo ships could be cyber warfare training. You could introduce officers who are expert hackers and have related skills. You could clearly explain it in he BT tooltip. Or introduce slow moving mainframe ships that can interrupt BT/hasten enemy BT until destroyed, acting as a major target that has to be protected (like a carrier).


The main reason PRT/CR-decay in-game reason is not well understood is that there are hardly any hints about its intended meaning in the game. It is hard to communicate, sine the concept is relatively unique to Sector. Electronic warfare on the other hand is a major scifi-battle trope. In Sector it is subtly hinted at by things like the ECCM hullmod, but most players are probably not aware of that. I think expanding on that could actually enrich the game lore and make it easier to imagine.
[/quote]




In the meantime, I ended up trying something simpler: "transfer command" now reduces the peak effectiveness time of the new flagship by the spent peak effectiveness of the old flagship, and further docks the new flagship for 10% CR. (Changing the command structure in battle is serious business!)

This seems to address pretty much the same things, with the virtue of being a small change. Peak performance can then continue to tick down as it does now - i.e. if any enemy is in visual range, or if the ship is doing something - without any extra rules about "strength" etc.

That works nicely against chain deployments, but... I don't see how it addresses the  problem of comprehensibility and clear UI presentation. Wasn't that the bigger problem here? BT is a new concept for us, but I think for a new player it would be way more intuitive. That ships have a timer that runs only under certain conditions... it's just not as neat. A lot less work of course, so only you can prioritize here.



@ Gothars:  (A bit tired myself at this posting...)  If I over-deploy with your idea, do I still recover more CR for a specific ship than if it fights alone or with only minimal support?  The main reason why I over-deploy is to recover more CR for my flagship so that CR costs do not break my flagship after two or three fights.  Credit costs mean less after I accumulate lots of wealth late in the game and become more interested in chain-battling and powerleveling.

No. If you over-deploy the combat stress for each individual ship will be less. I don't see that as a problem, as you're willing to pay more for it. More an issue of general finance balance and the worth of credits.


I think your math is backwards... Shouldn't the cost equal the percentage, and the amount saved is the remainder?

So for the frigate, 72 cost : 28 saved.
But by the math, vs. the battleship it would cost you nothing, since you would save 100% by standing down. Saving 90% would be fine, but 100% is not.
If you deploy less than the enemy, then you gain supplies out of nowhere, since (8 - 10) * .9 = -18%


Math seems correct to me. Maybe you confused percentage with supplies?

If you have less BT than your enemy the mechanic will of course not apply. The whole point of standing down is to recover from over-deployment, after all.



How do you explain a timer that is meant to show the "battle stresses" on the ship's systems suddenly hitting zero just because someone new came abroad? And before you start explaining that it is the "shock" of a new captain or command crew taking over, in the lore you have linked the CR timer to the reactor core.

I doubt that any frigates will have no PRT now that even cruisers got it. So old lore justifications don't apply.
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Jazwana

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Re: How to get a non-exploitable time pressure on combat
« Reply #50 on: December 08, 2014, 05:57:27 AM »

I like the idea Tartiflette.   My only suggestion,
Quote
the only difference with the flux is that it doesn't stack with Soft CR but overlap it.
It probably should stack with Soft CR - simplifies the mechanic across the game to reduce confusion, and easily balance-able.  As for an excuse: your crew is super tired, so maybe they miss the small energy imbalance in the pulse laser cooling circuits and it malfunctions sooner than in should.

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Megas

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Re: How to get a non-exploitable time pressure on combat
« Reply #51 on: December 08, 2014, 06:04:47 AM »

Quote
So the question here is, why shouldn't a late transfer of command be punishing?

You're either doing it because you lost your flagship, in which case it's a small price to pay, and if the ship you're transferring to was already fighting alongside you, the peak performance penalty doesn't mean as much since it's already ticked down for the target ship.

Or, you're chain-transferring to a newly deployed ship, in which case punishing is kind of the point.
Another reason:  You need help and the ship you transfer to is one the AI pilots incompetently or refuses to help.  For example, Heron.  Good enough to fight (even to snipe with mauler), but will not engage even if directly ordered to.  I had to transfer to a Heron so it and my Medusa can tag team against an Eagle flagship.
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Tartiflette

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Re: How to get a non-exploitable time pressure on combat
« Reply #52 on: December 08, 2014, 06:29:17 AM »

It probably should stack with Soft CR - simplifies the mechanic across the game to reduce confusion, and easily balance-able.
If you do that we are back with the current mechanic only with a faster recovery on the first part. If you get attacked twice in a row, your ships will suddenly be unable to defend themselves as all of them will have an extremely low CR from the first battle. The fact that they don't add to each other is to prevent successive battle to cost nothing by standing down. It's a minimal floor if you reengage someone immediately, not an additional cost.

Anyway, I forgot to mention that fleeing do not create as much soft CR than engaging in battle. That way it will prevent death spirals when you are followed by a stronger opponent but keep managing to escape until you run out of supplies or CR.
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Gothars

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Re: How to get a non-exploitable time pressure on combat
« Reply #53 on: December 08, 2014, 07:03:28 AM »

So in the end, deploying an overwhelming force cost you more than if you deployed just the necessary.

How so? I would just don't care about soft CR unless I want to chain-battle, which is pretty rare now. The only real cost is generated by actual combat time. It seems that what I am encouraged to do here is to massively over-deploy in order to end the battle as quickly as possible.  And  to use quick and hyper aggressive frigate swarms for optimal play.

Or am I missing something?
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Linnis

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Re: How to get a non-exploitable time pressure on combat
« Reply #54 on: December 08, 2014, 07:51:46 AM »

Battle time lore wise makes total sense... You put your drive and power at maximum output, and the computer or technicians give you a estimate on how long it will last.

As battle time gets to the negatives such as "-10min" increasing the chances per second of something malfunctioning.

This way random variables will also be easier to introduce and be easily represented in game, such as ships with green crews might go in to combat with lower CR thus a chance of even less battle time. Getting overloaded or emp-ded decrease battle time even more, watching that countdown drop is pretty stress inducing too ;D

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Tartiflette

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Re: How to get a non-exploitable time pressure on combat
« Reply #55 on: December 08, 2014, 08:01:26 AM »

How so? I would just don't care about soft CR unless I want to chain-battle, which is pretty rare now. The only real cost is generated by actual combat time. It seems that what I am encouraged to do here is to massively over-deploy in order to end the battle as quickly as possible.  And  to use quick and hyper aggressive frigate swarms for optimal play.

Because all ships would start loosing CR right from the start? And since you wouldn't regain Hard CR by standing down, even finishing a combat fast would cost roughly the same. Also, in the case of deploying an overwhelming force, that mean the enemy is fleeing, and don't get the Soft CR cost. You would have to be sure to really catch all of them because otherwise, the survivors could turn over while you are recovering from the battle and fight with far better CR values. I think right now the escape scenario is very much in favor of the pursuer, for this to work it would need to be reworked making it more difficult to catch everyone (for example, the fleeing ships that didn't get deployed before get a head-start). It create risks instead of a timer limitation.
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Megas

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Re: How to get a non-exploitable time pressure on combat
« Reply #56 on: December 08, 2014, 08:40:49 AM »

Quote
In the meantime, I ended up trying something simpler: "transfer command" now reduces the peak effectiveness time of the new flagship by the spent peak effectiveness of the old flagship, and further docks the new flagship for 10% CR. (Changing the command structure in battle is serious business!)
This makes no sense at all!  It feels wrong, even if it may fix another problem.  The fresh ship suddenly breaks because the battle-worn admiral steps up to assume command?

Does the penalty apply when you transfer command right before battle?  Between battles within the same encounter?  If not, that makes no sense!  Does this also apply when I change flagships out of combat in space, like changing hullmods (such as toggling Augmented Engines)?

I can understand some (but not total) reduction of peak performance, but CR reduction is too punishing and breaks immersion.

I would loathe CR even more than I do now.

P.S.  Minor accidents cause -15% CR.  Are my crew so incompetent that they cause accidents when I transfer to one of my ships?  This is bad comedy.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2014, 09:06:44 AM by Megas »
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Megas

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Re: How to get a non-exploitable time pressure on combat
« Reply #57 on: December 08, 2014, 09:20:59 AM »

Quote
Also AI never deploys reasonable amount of ships vs player so whole deploy as little as possible idea never works.
I know the feeling.  After 50 levels of soloing fleets, when I finally get enough Leadership and Logistics to deploy hordes against the AI and give it a taste of its own medicine, it is so fun.
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Wyvern

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Re: How to get a non-exploitable time pressure on combat
« Reply #58 on: December 08, 2014, 10:00:07 AM »

Best lore explanation I can come up with is EW: Electronic Warfare - it's how long it takes for your opponent to start hacking into your systems and degrading performance / overloading power conduits / etc; makes sense that that's fleet-wide, otherwise how could you coordinate your ships / give orders / etc?  Then the "hardened subsystems" hull mod becomes "blanket ECM", and you could maybe introduce a counterpart hull mod that reduces the enemy's timer if it's deployed - perhaps as a built-in for specialist ships like the Omen or Shade.

Hmm. That could make sense, but the feel of it is weird - like, all of a sudden, the "real" fight is taking place on a playing field you don't have access to.
Then give the player access to it!  Influencing that could be a good use for, say, the old comm array battle nodes - hold the node, and you get a significant advantage on the time pressures of EW.  It could also be a good use for command points - maybe you can spend a command point to buy yourself a bit more time, trading off the ability to give individual ship orders for greater security as individual ships lock down communications.

For capital ships... I'd say the Paragon should just be immune to EW.  You still get the timer for the rest of the fleet, but the Paragon is designed to be the last man standing - see the Forlorn Hope mission.  Onslaught, though... being immune to EW doesn't seem to be its schtick; if anything, I'd give it some sort of offensive EW ability, cutting down how long things can run away from it.  Conquest probably doesn't need anything special either way (though I still miss the few extra OP it got back when +OP went to 50%; really made a difference in what weapons you could effectively use - I miss having a ship where mjolnir cannons weren't just a joke choice).

The other thing I'd suggest is that the overall timer shouldn't just be linear on command points.  If deploying one destroyer nets you five minutes, deploying two shouldn't give you ten.  Maybe linear with a bonus from largest ship deployed?

* * * * *

On the topic of command transfer causing loss of CR timer: The only problem I have with the current suggestion is that it's a hard limit, not a soft limit.  It basically says "you can't transfer command from a frigate to a new frigate, at all, ever".  I'm not sure what a good alternative would be, but I'd rather see a situation where it's not a totally stupid move to do that once - maybe the new frigate just loses time based on half of how long your flagship(s) have been in the battle, and at worst just starts CR degredation immediately?
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Wyvern is 100% correct about the math.

Megas

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Re: How to get a non-exploitable time pressure on combat
« Reply #59 on: December 08, 2014, 10:13:02 AM »

My gut feeling for transfer command penalty in battle would be a flat -15 to 30 seconds from peak performance or equivalent from CR if peak performance has timed out, say up to -5% CR.  Since there is no peak performance out of battle, there would be no penalty if done out of battle.  Penalty should not be severe enough that people are tripping over themselves as soon as their admiral Ripper (who would have no qualms spacing incompetents if the game allowed it) checks in.
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