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Author Topic: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes  (Read 325261 times)

Shoat

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #630 on: February 19, 2015, 04:21:35 AM »

Ammo is basically an extra endurance mechanic, but with peak effectiveness time, that mechanic is already there, just in a different form. That said, I'm still thinking about it - there are some good arguments for bringing it back, but I'd like to see how things play out.

As someone who likes complex mechanical workings (if they have some flavor to them, which ammo certainly does) I think there might be a way to create a hybrid - something that combines ammo with CR (and allows ammo to stay relevant without being completely replaced by the abstract concept of CR).
We have ammo with reloading clips (or with normal reload rate), but the reload rate scales with combat readiness. Being at high CR lets you reload as fast as you fire, meaning you have infinite ammo, meaning players won't have to even think about ammo unless they're going into an unfavorable situation anyway.
 
As you get to lower CR you can't constanly fire anymore because your reload rate isn't keeping up (let's say you lose 1% reload speed for every 2% CR below 100). This could work equally for ballistics with clips, ballistics with individually reloading ammo, for reloaded missiles and for recharging energy weapons.

The reason I thought of that was because low CR already has the "missiles not fully loaded" stuff going on, and alongside that it'd make sense to also have "ammo not fully loaded" and/or "reload/recharge rate lowered".
« Last Edit: February 19, 2015, 04:23:15 AM by Shoat »
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DatonKallandor

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #631 on: February 19, 2015, 05:24:02 AM »

It's mostly there to discourage extreme kiting tactics and to encourage/reward more aggressive play.

I see. I think the example you provided shows it probably doesn't succeed entirely at the kiting part - since staying away from things and spending as little time as possible near enemies is what keeps PE going longer.

No idea how to fix that though (if it even needs fixing) - PE is a tricky thing, especially since it also has an impact on the out-of-combat economy. Personally I'd probably just go for simplicity - compare deployed combat values in the entire fight, if they're fairly even have it tick down. That way both sides are on the same rough timer, with low-tech ships generally having more staying power and the person with the higher starting CR (due to skills and good maintenance) also gets to fight for longer. It would punish kiting (though not overly) and wouldn't punish brawling (like it sort of currently does).
« Last Edit: February 19, 2015, 05:27:22 AM by DatonKallandor »
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Okim

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #632 on: February 19, 2015, 06:32:53 AM »

Just stopping by to say thanks for that little extra price info when hovering over commodities. Very useful and helpful improvement especially for large mods.

And from modder`s perspective - thanks for allowing us to be able to use ammo/clips. Provides some extra levels of making guns different from one another.

Gothars

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #633 on: February 19, 2015, 06:36:45 AM »

A few comments after finally playing for some time:

- I really like the pirate theme music, looking forward to that of the other factions :)

- Maybe there was not even any change there, but let me say again that I just love all the little market condition icons!

- Beams are really fun to play now! I did not expect the range change to do that much. A real alternative to strike weapons.

- I don't really miss ammo. I can confirm the effect that I'm far less reluctant to use a HE weapon against shields and vise versa, though. I could well imagine the clip mechanic on big weapons like the Gauss Cannon, btw.

- The added comfort functions (live updating cargo bar, supply usage in deployment window, price intel in cargo tab e/and the dialog menu numbers!) serve to make the game flow much smoother, I really like them. Please keep working at that kind of polish (especially in the intel/trade menus), it makes Starsector shine bright. :)

  • Can once again issue ship commands while paused. Tried it, didn't work out, moving on.

Oh, so this was not about changing weapon groups during pause, was it? Or is it an oversight that it doesn't work?


I see. I think the example you provided shows it probably doesn't succeed entirely at the kiting part - since staying away from things and spending as little time as possible near enemies is what keeps PE going longer.
No idea how to fix that though (if it even needs fixing)

I'd say Battle Time would fix it :)

Why LRMs and single EMP missiles in particular?

Because those weapons can be easily baited to fire and waste their ammo, leading to a boring disarmament process before the start of the "real" battle. Others cannot, at least not without danger.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2015, 10:36:06 AM by Gothars »
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icepick37

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #634 on: February 19, 2015, 10:02:07 AM »

Oh, so this was not about changing weapon groups during pause, was it? Or is it an oversight that it doesn't work?
Is it off topic to ask at this point that we be allowed to alter weapons groups while pause.  :D
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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #635 on: February 19, 2015, 12:24:59 PM »

I noticed that there are several new settings in the settings.json file, including something that you would like Gothars: "transferCommandCRCost" and "reservesPeakTimeMult". Also Gothars, you can still turn on the "no control when paused" feature from here as well. Oh and thanks for the option to turn off the white out effect!
Also holy CRAP! Those memory optimizations helped out BIG TIME!
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Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #636 on: February 19, 2015, 03:04:32 PM »

Ammo is basically an extra endurance mechanic, but with peak effectiveness time, that mechanic is already there, just in a different form. That said, I'm still thinking about it - there are some good arguments for bringing it back, but I'd like to see how things play out.

As someone who likes complex mechanical workings (if they have some flavor to them, which ammo certainly does) I think there might be a way to create a hybrid - something that combines ammo with CR (and allows ammo to stay relevant without being completely replaced by the abstract concept of CR).
We have ammo with reloading clips (or with normal reload rate), but the reload rate scales with combat readiness. Being at high CR lets you reload as fast as you fire, meaning you have infinite ammo, meaning players won't have to even think about ammo unless they're going into an unfavorable situation anyway.
 
As you get to lower CR you can't constanly fire anymore because your reload rate isn't keeping up (let's say you lose 1% reload speed for every 2% CR below 100). This could work equally for ballistics with clips, ballistics with individually reloading ammo, for reloaded missiles and for recharging energy weapons.

The reason I thought of that was because low CR already has the "missiles not fully loaded" stuff going on, and alongside that it'd make sense to also have "ammo not fully loaded" and/or "reload/recharge rate lowered".

Hmm. I've been thinking about something similar that might have come up before - making weapon fire (for some weapons) take up miniscule amounts of peak time and/or CR. But it seems like it'd go outside the scope of what "peak time" is, although, frankly, it's a bit messy conceptually already. (And, as someone who also likes complex mechanical workings, I've got to be on the lookout for not going overboard with these kinds of things :))



It's mostly there to discourage extreme kiting tactics and to encourage/reward more aggressive play.

I see. I think the example you provided shows it probably doesn't succeed entirely at the kiting part - since staying away from things and spending as little time as possible near enemies is what keeps PE going longer.

I think this is ok, though, since breaking off isn't something you can do super quickly (it's >3000 range), and it doesn't provide any real benefit, where with really long reload timers, it does as things come back online. I suppose a case in vanilla where this might come up is with the damage control hull repair perk - you could get away to repair hull without peak time ticking down.



- Maybe there was not even any change there, but let me say again that I just love all the little market condition icons!

David keeps fiddling with them, so cohesion and overall polish on those keeps improving :)

- I don't really miss ammo. I can confirm the effect that I'm far less reluctant to use a HE weapon against shields and vise versa, though. I could well imagine the clip mechanic on big weapons like the Gauss Cannon, btw.

Is it to the point where you're considering pure-kinetic/pure-HE loadouts?

Re: Gauss, yeah, that was a case where I seriously considered it. Decided to go with a flux cost increase instead, since that seemed to do about the same job.


Oh, so this was not about changing weapon groups during pause, was it? Or is it an oversight that it doesn't work?
Is it off topic to ask at this point that we be allowed to alter weapons groups while pause.  :D

Yeah that was an oversight. Was turned off in settings.json for... some... reason.


Also holy CRAP! Those memory optimizations helped out BIG TIME!

Cool! Haven't seen much about people's experiences with it since the patch, so that's really good to hear.
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orost

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #637 on: February 19, 2015, 03:24:06 PM »

If you want to know about memory - it's a massive improvement. I used to run the game with 2.8 GB memory allocated (about as much as I could afford to give it) and I still had to restart it about every hour to stay ahead of memory leakage, and performance wasn't too good. Now, with the same mod setup, I give it 2 GB and it runs flawlessly. (Although I haven't yet reached the savefile and fleet sizes I had in .1a - I started a new save)
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Steven Shi

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #638 on: February 19, 2015, 04:57:33 PM »

Just stopping by to say thanks for that little extra price info when hovering over commodities. Very useful and helpful improvement especially for large mods.

I still think a dedicated trade screen is a must. If you have a 15 system map, the sheer amount of price related info would become unwieldy if using the current tool tip set up. It's a really nice touch for the current scope of the game but it doesn't scale up very well. 


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Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #639 on: February 19, 2015, 06:22:43 PM »

Will the tachyon lance be improved, either more damage and/or less OP cost?  I find it disappointing that I must pay 32 (or 28 with perk) OP for a long-range beam that is only good at disabling ships and snuffing fighters and unshielded frigates.  Ships that used to kite and kill ships slowly with it, namely Sunder, now have peak performance to deal with.  Right now, it is only worth it for a Paragon that fills all medium mounts with blasters to make up for lost firepower.

Phase Lance makes the Tachyon Lance looks weak, in terms of damage.
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xenoargh

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #640 on: February 19, 2015, 09:40:38 PM »

Quote
Is it to the point where you're considering pure-kinetic/pure-HE loadouts?
For me, that's a no. 

I think that a mix still makes sense, for pure Soft Flux efficiency.  It's nice to be able to turn all the Groups on and not care about ammo wastage if I just want to plow through sometimes, though, heh.
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Serenitis

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #641 on: February 20, 2015, 01:46:11 AM »

The new weapons stats are better, and not having to worry about ballistics running dry is nice. The exception being large energy weapons which all seem to be just plain useless compared the mediums. They're large guns, give them a longer reach and a bit more punch at the very least (doubly so for the poor HIL).

Reloading missiles are very fun and give you lots more flexibilty.
But are now they're the only real choice as I cannot see the point of equipping a weapon which will run out if I have the option of having a weapon which lasts forever.
Making all missile weapons reload would be better just to get rid of the irritating pre-battle jousting and disarmament entirely.

Which leads to Peak Performance.
A mechanic which is intended to force the player to dive right in. There are some problems with this.
Firstly forcing the player to play a particular way is kind of required for a mutiplayer just to maintain fairness, but for a 1P it is just a barrier protecting nothing. For a 1P game it doesn't matter how the player plays the game so long as they're having fun, and removing ways of playing that people find fun is not something you want to be doing.
Then there is the previous two points regarding reloading weapons, which would tend to suggest that longer battles are the desired outcome. But PP wants battles to be shorter.
Does this game know what it wants to be/do? I don't think it does at the moment, and PP is the cause.

Example of frustration:
Previously, I'd rush to get a destroyer (any!) asap just to be rid of that damn timer. But now you have to use capitals to do that, and I find flying those to be quite tedious as they are so very very slow not to mention hugely expensive to equip and maintain, which is way out of reach for a decent sized chunk of the game.  Thus by the inclusion/exapansion of a single mechanic no matter which way I try to play the game now it is somewhat frustrating.

If PP is going to remain in the game at least put an option in the settings to turn it off so if you want to play longer hit-and-fade battles then you can because honestly, that is super fun.
And fun is the point of a game, right?

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Linnis

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #642 on: February 20, 2015, 02:07:39 AM »

Is it to the point where you're considering pure-kinetic/pure-HE loadouts?

HE does way too little damage to shields and Kinetic to armor to make pure kinetic-HE loadouts work well.
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Gothars

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #643 on: February 20, 2015, 05:46:16 AM »

Is it to the point where you're considering pure-kinetic/pure-HE loadouts?

Only in special cases. Basically only when there are few weapon slots on the one hand, and on the other hand few constraints like flux or chance of return fire. For example I equip my starter hound with a heavy Mauler, where I previously might have preferred something kinetic + a small assault canon. Or I put two Maulers on a Gemini for support fire instead of a weapon mix.
I think it's OK.



Re: Gauss, yeah, that was a case where I seriously considered it. Decided to go with a flux cost increase instead, since that seemed to do about the same job.

I thought of it more as a way to distinguish the Gauss Cannon, in its position between the IX Autocannon and the Storm Needler it seems a bit limited in usefulness. Its strength is that it's an "all in one" weapon that can threaten shields an armor and anything from frigates up to capitals. But since it is a heavy weapon there's little opportunity to shine, there's no ship that would really needs such an all-rounder, a combination of specialist weapons works better.
The ability to damage burst would probably make me consider it again.

Or maybe I'm wrong and there are good uses for the Gauss Cannon?
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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #644 on: February 20, 2015, 06:40:44 AM »

Gauss Cannon has the most range of any ballistic weapon, and one of only two kinetics with 1000 range or greater.  Gauss Cannon is much more damaging than HVD.  Heavy Mauler is the only HE weapon with 1000 range, and the rest have less range.  Many beam weapons have 1000 range.

Gauss Cannon is great on a Conquest.  Conquest is squishy for a capital, and cannot stand up to a enemy battleship like an Onslaught.  What a Conquest can do is put long range weapons on all slots, and use its speed (Conquest has Maneuvering Jets), to play keep-away from many enemies and snipe at them.  With unlimited ammo, Conquest has become a vicious sniper that can kite from anything that can outgun it.

Dominator and Onslaught are better off just killing everything with Storm Needler or heavy HE.


For all kinetic or all HE, some ships do not have better alternatives.  Some ships have too few mounts to use both, or only one type has enough range to outrange the enemy.  For example, Hound.  Using both mounts for attack not only leaves no PD, both also overloads flux capacity quickly.  With unlimited ammo, slowly plinking at shields with HE is a viable option, and its small mount can be a Vulcan to stop missiles and to finish off vulnerable ships.  Also, Hound can stay further back while other friends kill shields for them.  Also, Heron.  Its best long range option, if not using Heavy Blaster, is Heavy Mauler.  Why not use HVD? Its fire rate is slow enough that the enemy can lower shields, dissipate (not vent) some flux, then raise shields again before HVD can be fired again.
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