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Author Topic: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes  (Read 325183 times)

Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #615 on: February 18, 2015, 12:42:01 PM »

@DatonKallandor: Thanks for posting up those reload numbers. Could defnitely see it working, like I said, but I'm just not a fan of long cooldowns myself.  Sometimes cooldowns are hard to avoid design-wise, but it feels like if you've got enough of them, managing them rapidly becomes the name of the game. It does make things easier for the AI to work with, as the cost of getting a "should I launch missiles" decision wrong is lower.

As the player, though, you'd probably feel like you have to wait out cooldowns to engage optimally. Peak effectiveness seems like it would combat this, but it doesn't tick down when there aren't enough enemies around. So, if you're in a Hyperion, it seems like an optimal way to fight would be to teleport in, unload whatever missiles you've got, then teleport out and hide in a corner somewhere while the missiles reload. Could be addressed somehow, but that's just the most egregious example of the pattern of play I think long cooldowns would encourage. Plus, as I mentioned, I like the decision layer that having truly limited missiles adds.

@Wyvern, Megas, Thaago:
Bumped up Autopulse damage to 150, and flux use to 125. Hopefully that'll be enough; I don't think a drastic change is called for here, but in my experience, the weapon did feel weak-ish. It's not supposed to be super-strong, with efficiency being the main selling point, but even so, it's still a large slot you're using.

Also added the PD tag to the Proximity Charge Launcher.

... and while I was at it, set the Apogee's Sensor Drones so that they can't free-roam. Been meaning to do that for a while.


(I'd like to take this opportunity to say thank you to everyone for all the detailed and thought-out feedback. I very much appreciate it.)

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Silver Silence

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #616 on: February 18, 2015, 12:56:24 PM »

Personally, I'd just increase the range of the autopulse and adjust the sprite to remove the strut on the side or add a strut on the other side (hrrgh, asymmetry). I tend not to use it because it feels like a cruiser's weapon. Same with the plasma cannon. It seems like a weapon for the midline destroyer whose name has slipped my mind completely. Mounted to a Paragon, you completely hand over range advantage to the Onslaught and to a HIL fitted Odyssey. Shorter ranged weapons on such large and cumbersome ships has never really gelled with me. Gauss/Mauler/HVD. HIL/Grav/Tac. But the autopulse and the prazma cannon are a really snug fit for the Sunder (that was it's name, right? the midline destroyer?). It's a destroyer, it already doesn't have much OP to work with. Giving up only a little range, you can mount triple pulse lasers that are much more sustainable.
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SafariJohn

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #617 on: February 18, 2015, 01:57:40 PM »

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DatonKallandor

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #618 on: February 18, 2015, 03:51:13 PM »

On further thought, I feel I should add: This is not the first time that the autopulse and pulse laser have had this problem; several versions ago, the situation was the same as it is now, where one could replace an autopulse with a pulse and find it to be a direct upgrade.  Alex fixed that.  I bring this up so that he can fix it again; as such, convincing the two of you is not a high priority for me.  So present whatever further arguments you like; I have said what needed saying and am done with this topic.

And you're doing a great service - finding those cases where cheaper/smaller/same cost weapons simply outperform others is extremely important. Especially for Energy weapons where there are fewer variables between different weapons. Keep it dude.

@Alex: I hadn't thought about run-away cases that's a good point. Although I suspect the low fire rate would make those tactics fairly weak - I've found the low fire rate missiles require quite a bit of setup to be effective (enemy flux being high, overloaded or an unshielded section towards the missile vector because they're flanked) - the volume of missiles just isn't high enough to score persistent damage just from missiles alone (the old FMR combined with the old Pilums being an exception - they did score kills just through volume alone from a single ship). Except for missile mount heavy ships,  but I can't think of one that's capable of the keep-away game (which is good ship design on your part by the way - keeping the brawlers more mobile than the skirmishers so there's no pure artillery duels).

On Peak Effectiveness, I can't say I've noticed it being significantly different  - I ran into a few times in bigger fleet battles (I'd say about 20vs20 logistics points?) and it served as a good reminder to get on with it. It made itself known when I was stalling a little trying to weave around missile volleys and striking in the windows between reloads. Something you can really only do with a Wolf or similar high-tech ultra-mobile ships - had I been using something a little more straightforward (like a Lasher) I suspect those fights would have been over (either outcome) before peak effectiveness had degraded.

What is the intention for PE anyway: Is it supposed to be a factor in most fight? Only in big fights? Something you only run into when you stall and play hit-and-run?

« Last Edit: February 18, 2015, 03:53:19 PM by DatonKallandor »
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Agalyon

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #619 on: February 18, 2015, 03:53:39 PM »

Quick question: is the 25% energy damage increase just raw numbers ON the weapons, or is it built into the game? I'm doing a little fixing on the factions that aren't currently updated.
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Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #620 on: February 18, 2015, 04:04:28 PM »

Peak performance is a big deal for the player who attempts to solo fleets with one ship.  Without peak performance, a frigate piloted by a skilled enough player can destroy any fleet.

The damage increase for energy weapons is per weapon.  Not all weapons were powered-up equally, and a few did not get any damage raise at all.
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Midnight Kitsune

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #621 on: February 18, 2015, 04:28:38 PM »

Quick question: is the 25% energy damage increase just raw numbers ON the weapons, or is it built into the game? I'm doing a little fixing on the factions that aren't currently updated.
Just raw numbers on the guns. And it isn't the same across the board either. Some weapons got a bigger boost than others
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DinoZavarski

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #622 on: February 18, 2015, 05:02:54 PM »

Strange, is there something wrong with my game playing style, given the fact that i actually have to consider ammo count all the time, run out of it on regular basis and have to use extended ammo upgrades quite often (i play 6.2.1 with a lot of mods). Seeing it removed with the statement that it never runs out anyway looks as mockery for me. Infinite ammo has dire impact on game enjoyability, turning it in some kind of arcade and nearly made me not want to switch to 0.6.52 anytime soon (just like providing the patch instead of the full game on purchase made me me not play 0.6.51).

Fortunately it is done via the CSV and is easy to fix. Still think however that while "Infinite ammo" setting may fit quite well besides the "Take half damage" setting in preferences, it must not require patching game data to disable.

At least hope dev's won't remove ammo support mechanics in the next version with the statement that nobody uses it anyway :/
« Last Edit: February 18, 2015, 05:30:12 PM by DinoZavarski »
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SafariJohn

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #623 on: February 18, 2015, 06:39:43 PM »

At least hope dev's won't remove ammo support mechanics in the next version with the statement that nobody uses it anyway :/

There are still some energy weapons and many missiles that use ammo, and Alex has assured us that he's even leaving the clip-based system in for modders to mess with.
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Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #624 on: February 18, 2015, 07:18:20 PM »

Yet another comment about Phase Lance:

Because Hyperion can guarantee a hit on armor on any standard ship (by exploiting shielding AI or simply overpowering small ships), dual Phase Lance works very well with Hyperion, and it does not require Advanced Optics, although it requires at least Miniatured Capacitors perk for more than maximum capacitors.  Dual Phase Lance builds up flux very quickly, and Hyperion needs almost normal maximum flux capacity to fire them and teleport once, but needs even more flux to absorb damage to shields.  However, once player has the flux, it is generally easy to use.  All the player needs to do, is teleport to an unprotected point of the enemy, fire once and stay there until beams are done, teleport away, vent, and repeat.  Almost as effective as Heavy Blasters despite lower DPS because the Hyperion vents during shot delay.

It is weak against phase ships, which are almost impossible to hit with the full beams until they overload or vent.  It is also weak against a skilled Paragon, which can cause extremely high damage very quickly, during the brief time your beams fire.

Phase Lance is an excellent burst weapon, and lives up to the assault role, if shields can be overcome one way or another.
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Unfolder

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #625 on: February 18, 2015, 08:18:36 PM »

What about instead of ammo to balance ballistics, steadily increasing flux is used. So for the first second an assault chaingun costs 10 flux, then 20 flux, then 30 flux etc etc and the cooldown is literally a cooldown as the barrel steams off. hue hue hue
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Aeson

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #626 on: February 18, 2015, 09:04:23 PM »

What about instead of ammo to balance ballistics, steadily increasing flux is used. So for the first second an assault chaingun costs 10 flux, then 20 flux, then 30 flux etc etc and the cooldown is literally a cooldown as the barrel steams off. hue hue hue
I vote no. It doesn't make sense as something that applies only to ballistic weapons, and it's something that could easily spiral to ridiculous levels, especially for more or less continuous-fire weapons like the Assault Chaingun and Vulcan Cannon. Beyond that, I really don't think that most ballistic weapons need steadily-increasing flux generation to be balanced relative to other weapons.
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Thaago

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #627 on: February 18, 2015, 09:33:48 PM »

Tried out the new autopulse (150 damage per shot, 125 flux). It definitely feels like a heavy weapon now! The lower flux efficiency is noticeable, but it is still quite good. Meanwhile being able to put out a burst of 1500 DPS for 2.4 (or 3.6) seconds makes it extraordinarily dangerous.
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Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #628 on: February 19, 2015, 12:09:21 AM »

@Alex: I hadn't thought about run-away cases that's a good point. Although I suspect the low fire rate would make those tactics fairly weak - I've found the low fire rate missiles require quite a bit of setup to be effective (enemy flux being high, overloaded or an unshielded section towards the missile vector because they're flanked) - the volume of missiles just isn't high enough to score persistent damage just from missiles alone (the old FMR combined with the old Pilums being an exception - they did score kills just through volume alone from a single ship). Except for missile mount heavy ships,  but I can't think of one that's capable of the keep-away game (which is good ship design on your part by the way - keeping the brawlers more mobile than the skirmishers so there's no pure artillery duels).

Right, but it doesn't have to be *just* missiles doing the damage. It could just be an alpha strike that includes missiles as an integral part. Staying away between reloads would make sense because otherwise you're 1) wasting peak time by not dealing as much damage as you could be and 2) exposing yourself to more danger by engaging with a less-than-optimal offensive capacity.

What is the intention for PE anyway: Is it supposed to be a factor in most fight? Only in big fights? Something you only run into when you stall and play hit-and-run?

It's mostly there to discourage extreme kiting tactics and to encourage/reward more aggressive play.



Strange, is there something wrong with my game playing style, given the fact that i actually have to consider ammo count all the time, run out of it on regular basis and have to use extended ammo upgrades quite often (i play 6.2.1 with a lot of mods). Seeing it removed with the statement that it never runs out anyway looks as mockery for me.

I'd say it just means you're pushing the game farther by trying to get the most possible done with the fewest ships, which leads to longer battles which in turn leads to running out of ammo. Ammo is basically an extra endurance mechanic, but with peak effectiveness time, that mechanic is already there, just in a different form. That said, I'm still thinking about it - there are some good arguments for bringing it back, but I'd like to see how things play out.

Beyond that, you did mention you're playing with lots of mods, so I can't speak to what the ammo counts in said mods are.

At least hope dev's won't remove ammo support mechanics in the next version with the statement that nobody uses it anyway :/

It'll stay in; as someone else mentioned, some weapons do use it :)



What about instead of ammo to balance ballistics, steadily increasing flux is used. So for the first second an assault chaingun costs 10 flux, then 20 flux, then 30 flux etc etc and the cooldown is literally a cooldown as the barrel steams off. hue hue hue

The thing is, ammo is not at all a balancing factor for short-term fights. So, I don't think replacing it with something that *is* impactful in short-term fights is the way to go - at the very least, it'd require a full rebalance of the ballistic weapons, and besides, the original goal was to trim down complexity a bit. Even if going towards clips was sort of the opposite, oops.

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Schwartz

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #629 on: February 19, 2015, 04:07:36 AM »

Even though I was against removing ammo at first, the recharging clip mechanic was another interesting thing to differentiate the different weapon groups. And once again I'm sad to see it go. I barely got to try it out.

It looks kinda strange now seeing how few weapons still use ammo and even fewer recharge. Why LRMs and single EMP missiles in particular? This seems like something where we could have a choice between a 3-shot missile weapon and a single-shot recharging one for the various groups, Sabots, EMPs, Explosives, etc. That would kinda smooth out the weapon landscape and make it a bit more uniform.

Should also say that it's not quite as big a deal as I first thought it would be. The game still feels fine. ;)
« Last Edit: February 19, 2015, 04:16:52 AM by Schwartz »
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