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Author Topic: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes  (Read 325273 times)

Toxcity

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #480 on: February 12, 2015, 03:13:36 PM »

The flux generated by ballistic weapons was decreased.
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Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #481 on: February 12, 2015, 03:17:36 PM »

Before this latest release, I used Heavy Needler primarily for ammo count.  I build my ships to kill fleets singlehandedly (if possible).  Before 0.65, the only way I could solo a Hegemony defense fleet with an Enforcer was with Heavy Needlers plus Heavy Mauler.  Even then, I needed to conserve ammo by letting badly damaged ships retreat.  Heavy Autocannon did not have enough ammo for the job.
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Wyvern

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #482 on: February 12, 2015, 03:24:21 PM »

The flux generated by ballistic weapons was decreased.
Odd, I'd expect to see that in the patch notes.  The Mjolnir had its flux cost decreased, but it rather needed that.  Other ballistics did not.  Are you sure you're not using some sort of balance-altering mod?
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MesoTroniK

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #483 on: February 12, 2015, 03:33:46 PM »

The flux generation for ballistic weapons only goes down when the clip mechanic kicks in and limits the sustained DPM. During the initial salvos the flux cost is unchanged from the last version of SS.

Wyvern

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #484 on: February 12, 2015, 03:38:49 PM »

Ahh, so the difference is in the sustained flux calculations.  That makes sense.  Carry on then.
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Unfolder

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #485 on: February 12, 2015, 06:46:45 PM »

HAHAHAHA, so I've actually gone all the way and actually played the new version, and holy motherloving crapoly I am literally 200% right. I'm so sorry for even starting the debate, because it's so lopsided that there's obviously some perception/fundamental personality differences here that can't be bridged. Literally L O L at the new version imbalances. Anyway: four things I've noticed

Minor

1. The talon cheap fighters vulcan guns don't seem to fire many bullets at all. Just like a few 5 per second of piddly little bullets, kiting around like flies without firing. Even when the enemy ship is flux bursted out and helpless. I don't use talons except as bridge fighters to something better, but they seem pretty much completely useless, even in their role as kamikaze suicide fodder fighters. I saw it only in two battles but it was definitely noticeably weaker fire than previous versions. Might just be a fluke.

2. It's possible to stop an engine charge thrust, on like an enforcer, by venting if you have flux. Not sure if working as intended, but you can use it as an emergency brake to stop a bad charge towards something dangerous. Doesn't feel like it's supposed to be able to do that, the whole point of charging is trading safety for rapid speed.

Major

3. Lol at the missiles. Lol at the missiles. Starsector: spam piliums until EVERYTHING dies. Got a problem? Piliums. Got a problem? More piliums. Piliums piliums piliums for the auto win. Harpoon multilauncher? BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA *fires 30 piliums every 30 seconds for the rest of the battle* I haven't found them yet but I'm sure salamanders are just as bad. Anyway, balance it or don't, the new version is hilarious, I love it. Speaking of which:

4. So we've somewhat blunted energies overpoweredness from flux/capacity/ammo efficiency by buffing ballistic ammo (somewhat) and removed flux boost damage, which was definitely cheese. But hooooooooly macaroni, the new beam ranges are devastating. I just watched a vigiliance armed with the 800 range blue one successfully kite a falcon for an entire battle, a falcon stuffed to the brim with harpoons btw (lol). I watched another Wolf kite both an enforcer and lasher with tactical lasers and the blue one. Now granted they can't kill them but they can tie them up successfully until their CR gives out, and with the range boost it becomes even more devastating. The enemy ships cannot harm the beam mounted frigates, they just can't get anyway near close enough. And of course, tied up means I can sneak up and pop their engines without difficultly. Hmm, not sure what the fix is, I don't even want you to fix it cause it's a great strategy, makes fleet building really really easy (beams + piliums with one ship armed with explosive ballistics). but really, I don't think it's fair that tactical lasers can fire so far. Hounds are weak as hell, but now they can't even apply pressure to a wolf, let alone harm it.



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Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #486 on: February 12, 2015, 06:55:53 PM »

1. has been confirmed and will be fixed.
2. has been in the game as long as I can remember.  Think of it like move cancelling in a fighting game.
3. Pilums does not need unlimited ammo to dominate, if you field enough missile-ships.  If you really want to see cheese, try Salamanders combined with Fast Missile Racks.  Pilums need to regenerate, but Salamanders do not... yet.
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Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #487 on: February 12, 2015, 07:12:44 PM »

IMO Reapers > Harpoons even for AI, although I haven't tested Harpoons all that much. I think I'll go do that, cause why not.

One thing about AI Harpoon usage is that it'll quickly fire off large salvoes vs unshielded ships. Not entirely sure how to address it, since in many circumstances it *does* make sense to alpha-strike any Hounds and Cerberi (?) into oblivion, but in other cases it makes sense to save the Harpoons for other threats, and that's a tough call for the AI to make. Anyway, all that is to say, when you're trying out Harpoons, keep in mind that the AI is going to use them best vs shielded ships.
You can always make them (and every other missile) unlimited.  The only non-regenerating missiles I use now are either 0 OP singles, Reaper, and maybe Annihilators.

Single Harpoons are free (with perk), no problem.  Not every ship I use can afford missiles without giving up something it needs more.

Triple Harpoon is overpriced.  Much rather use Reapers, Annihilators, or Swarmers instead.  Well, with unlimited Salamanders, I do not want Swarmers anymore.  Swarmers were weak, but were useful en masse... until they ran out.

Harpoon Pod is okay for ships that cannot use Reapers (like Apogee), but three salvos are not enough.  If my ship has Missile Specialization 10, Pilums are nearly as good as Harpoons, and now they regenerate!  For non-skilled, Pilums can still be good.
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ahrenjb

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #488 on: February 12, 2015, 07:58:38 PM »


I'm curious, which weapons specifically have you used that feel that way? And what length of fights are we talking about?

Hmm. It might make sense to go back to infinite ammo for a few ballistics (conceptually, they can just reload as fast as they fire), and only leave the clip-based mechanic on a few weapons where it makes sense as a balancing factor. That'd also meet the original goal of simplifying things somewhat.


Of course, a lot of this might be dependent on the way I play the game. Understanding this, a few weapons that really stood out were Mjolnir Cannons, Hellbore, Heavy Autocannon. That's by no means an exhaustive list, but I will say I didn't particularly like the effect that the clip system had on my ability to participate in combat with ANY ballistic weapon. I mean, if we look at something like a Vulcan cannon, that's a PD weapon. It's almost exclusively going to be left to autofire. Depending on the weapons being used against you or the composition of the enemy fleet, they might only have to fire every now and then, or they might be blasting away almost constantly at fighter wings or what-have-you. This is a weapon that gameplay-wise should be firing from an unlimited magazine. I mean, I don't ever remember running out of vulcan ammo in fights in previous versions. With the new system, a gun that is operating on fully automated control now might end up at the bottom of its magazine right as a handful of pilums are coming your way because they've been blasting at fighters. That's not fun or interesting, it's just frustrating. Your PD wasn't able to do what you installed it to do for no good reason, and you probably didn't even know it was running low unless you were micro-ing like crazy. Conceptually it's fine for them to have unlimited ammo, because it's likely fed from a belt.

And really same goes for larger weapons. Why should I have to pull back or hold off engaging a certain enemy because I'm waiting for my clips to charge up enough? We already have this form of engagement management in the form of flux, so it's completely redundant here and only serves to overcomplicate combat timing.  It's especially frustrating when, after a period of sustained fire, once you tap the bottom of your reserve your DPS is halved. Having a weapon that can only fire at full capability for a while seems like a poor way to balance ballistics, again, this is already managed in the form of flux. Basically, we have two systems that accomplish the same thing in combat, and one of them is more clunky and awkward and only applied to a certain segment of weapons. If you want lore to explain unlimited ammo for large ballistics, old battleship turret assemblies extended deep into the hull and ammunition was fed by nearly inexhaustible magazine in the hull by elevator, ensuring a constant supply for sustained fire.

I admit this is a total reversal of my pre-release opinion on the planned changes, but I think we're better off with eliminating ammo for ballistics entirely. I really can't think of too may times I ran out of ammo in game anyway, but in rare cases. I guess I just liked the idea of having ammo for flavor or something.
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Blips

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #489 on: February 12, 2015, 08:20:13 PM »

So with the new weapon changes, does each category (energy, ballistic, etc) still feel distinct or is everything muddied now? :'(
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xenoargh

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #490 on: February 12, 2015, 09:09:29 PM »

Quote
So with the new weapon changes, does each category (energy, ballistic, etc) still feel distinct or is everything muddied now?
It doesn't feel muddled.  That really isn't a problem and hasn't ever really been a problem; the Kinetic / HE split from Energy was always enough to keep the border between Energy pew-pew and Ballistic pew-pew fundamentally interesting, imo, regardless of the other specific mechanics... and while the clip thing hasn't worked entirely perfectly, it definitely can add flavor.

Anyhow, I'm doing a second pass on the rebal-concept-tester tonight, which I'll post up shortly... and I'd like to hear whether it's just horrible heresy or whether it actually fixes stuff.  

I feel that it's actually getting somewhere reasonable and nothing seems really broken, feel-wise, but there are still little issues here and there that will need smoothing out.  Again, I really suggest playing it for a bit, after playing Vanilla, as a way to compare concepts, hopefully with an open mind.  It's easier to see the implications of this stuff when there's actually something you can play and compare the feel, rather than having theory-crafting debates.

The only really major issue I've hit, and it's a biggie, is that Fast Missile Racks are just plain OP with slow-firing missiles that auto-regen.  That's easily fixed, but I'm not sure if I've missed any important squirrel cases; the cooldown is really all that needs to change so that the balance is reasonable for most cases.  My feeling is that wasn't meant to be an uber-buff, but more of an alpha-strike thing, and I think it just got missed, so that change will address that.
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Histidine

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #491 on: February 13, 2015, 04:38:33 AM »

(This is an xkcd #386 post. If you find those dreadfully dull, feel free to skip.)

Spoiler
On alpha striking with missiles:

A fleet with one a ship that has just used up all its small/medium missiles is basically a fleet with one ship operating on a 2-24 OP penalty, depending on what the mounts were and what was put in them.

A fleet with one ship that got alpha-struck out of the battle is a fleet that's down 40 - 140 OP worth of combat ability. And unlike the missile ammo, the lost crew and the hull damage aren't replaced for free. If the ship gets disabled instead of merely being forced to retreat, you lose any number of weapons and more often that not a hull that's likely to be hard, possibly near-impossible to replace.

Other than the boorish sarcasm, which frankly just undermines everything you say, this just tells me you really just never used them right. You fire them when the enemy is vulnerable, or you fire them in overwhelming force and get a straight up kill.  Frigates can sometimes dodge, but destroyers and up can't. People were complaining about skilled enemy Dominators evaporating a destroyer with every volley of 12 Harpoons, at 0 flux cost.

Why is it that hard hitting, alpha striking, fast moving, PD-proof anti-matter blasters regen, but hard hitting, alpha striking, slow moving, PD vulnerable Reapers do not regen? Oh right, because non regen alpha missiles are a complete worthless waste of OP compared to completely overpowered energy builds (more flux, more capacity, more energy weapons) and I guess with the new version regen missiles.
1) As Tartiflette said: AM Blaster doesn't regen.

2) Are you actually going to address any of the points made, or just repeat the same talking points?

Quote
mean, do you all really think Repear torpedo's or harpoons are really so devastatingly effective? They are pretty good against low tech fleets but energy fleets will chaos blast them with PD without much difficulty.
You are completely wrong. Common light energy PD will do very little against multiple Harpoons and nothing against Reapers; you need two or more Burst PD Lasers at minimum. For dealing with mass Harpoons (or Annihilators), flak beats any energy PD weapon (especially on a per-OP basis) short of Guardian PD.

There's also the little fact that while high-tech ships can shield against strike missiles more effectively, it also hurts them more when any get through.

Simulator trials:
Spoiler
version 0.6.5.2a
simulator loaded from missions (i.e. no skills)
5 runs per test

Eagle with 3 PD Lasers and ITU cannot stop a single Dagger-launched Reaper from the front, much less all three. This is even when the lead Reaper gets all three lasers focusing it down.
Same with 3 LR PD Lasers.
3 Burst PD Lasers do stop 1 of 3 each time.
Medusa with 2 Heavy Burst Lasers and no ITU stops 1 most of the time, 2 if the Daggers stagger their launch.
(To be sure, Dominator with ITU and 3 Vulcans also fails each time, and Enforcer with 2 side-mounted Flaks and no ITU can stop 2 but only against staggered launch, else all hit)

What about the same ships vs. a single Harpoon pod launched by a Dominator (D) at range?
Eagle, 3 PD Lasers: stops 1 every time
Eagle, 3 LR PD Lasers: stops 1 every time
Eagle, 3 Burst PD lasers: stops 3 most of the time, +1 or -1 depending on luck
Dominator, 3 Vulcan Cannons: stops 2 every time
Enforcer, 2 Flak Cannons: stops 4 most of the time, once it got unlucky and 2 Harpoons got through
Medusa, 2 Heavy Burst Lasers: stops 3 most of the time, 4 if lucky

It's almost as if energy PD isn't really any better than ballistic PD, and often worse. Huh.
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Quote
My fighter wing is nothing but Repear fighter bombers, 5-7 wings of them, launching wave after wave of repears, and in that regard, they are effective. Backed by proper fire support, they can pop a destroyer or a cruiser, every few minutes or so, because you know, they get more than one reaper over a 5 minute fleet engagment...regenerating repear wings are a very good balance, non regenerating repears, gimp city. Same thing with harpoons, thunders get new harpoons every few minutes. But other ships can't? Because of balance? Ridiculous and overly complicating double standards...that add nothing to gameplay...
You noticed something about those examples you used? Hint: they're both fighters, which are already a "double standard." Not only do they get to reload missiles mid battle, they even respawn when killed. Of course, they pay for it in certain ways, like requiring a separate ship (a carrier), with all its attendant DP and supply costs, to be able to use their special powers. They also use a lot of supplies relative to their combat power, especially if they're dying a lot. Also, aside from bombers, fighter wings just don't carry enough missiles to overwhelm targets.

This comparison is so obviously apples-to-oranges, I'm amazed you made it.

HAHAHAHA, so I've actually gone all the way and actually played the new version, and holy motherloving crapoly I am literally 200% right. I'm so sorry for even starting the debate, because it's so lopsided that there's obviously some perception/fundamental personality differences here that can't be bridged. Literally L O L at the new version imbalances.
Your attitude is embarrassing, and combined with the factual wrongness of your posts, extremely annoying. Stop it.

Quote
3. Lol at the missiles. Lol at the missiles. Starsector: spam piliums until EVERYTHING dies. Got a problem? Piliums. Got a problem? More piliums. Piliums piliums piliums for the auto win. Harpoon multilauncher? BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA *fires 30 piliums every 30 seconds for the rest of the battle* I haven't found them yet but I'm sure salamanders are just as bad. Anyway, balance it or don't, the new version is hilarious, I love it.
2014 called, they want their strategy back. (Yes, mass Pilums was a thing before 0.65.2a, believe it or not.)

Quote
a falcon stuffed to the brim with harpoons btw (lol).
10 OP spent on Harpoons on a 105 OP ship is not "stuffed to the brim."

Quote
I watched another Wolf kite both an enforcer and lasher with tactical lasers and the blue one. Now granted they can't kill them but they can tie them up successfully until their CR gives out, and with the range boost it becomes even more devastating.
Wrong again. A lone Wolf can't drain an Enforcer's CR (even when the Enforcer is firing, surprisingly) because it is a frigate against a destroyer. A Wolf can kite a Lasher to drain its CR... except for the fact that it also drains its own CR in the process. Guess who runs out first.
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« Last Edit: February 13, 2015, 07:08:52 AM by Histidine »
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Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #493 on: February 13, 2015, 07:27:56 AM »

Pros and cons of ballistic and energy weapons.

Ballistics
+ Better anti-missile defense
+ Better flux efficiency than non-beam energy weapons
+ Better range than non-beam energy weapons
- Bad accuracy for many, and those with good accuracy have other drawbacks (e.g., higher OP costs, harder-to-find, some need heavy mounts)
- Low DPS if out of ammo, which will happen with many ballistics

Energy, Beams
+ Flux efficient
+ Most have long range; good for forcing the AI to keep shields up
+ Perfect accuracy
- Low DPS
- No hard flux damage!

Energy, Other
+ High, and reliable, DPS
+ Near perfect accuracy, except Autopulse Laser
- Almost incapable of PD
- Heavy weapons do not outperform their Medium counterparts enough to justify their costs*
- High flux costs
- Short-ranged

* Without Expanded Magazines, Autopulse laser runs out of charges very quickly, then becomes a weaker Pulse Laser (with slightly more range).  Plasma Cannon pays +18 OP and more flux for +100 range and +63 DPS advantage over Heavy Blaster.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2015, 07:37:24 AM by Megas »
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MindsEye

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #494 on: February 13, 2015, 07:46:00 AM »

So I am one who like having limited ammo and I have to say this change I really hate with a passion. I havent been around for a long time so I really dont know why this was needed in the first place.

I have a few ideas that may have been mentioned.

1-I read that people said limited ammo wasnt a factor anyway.Well balance it to be a factor then.I remember running out of ammo.Not often but it did happen and it was part of the game play to be conservative with shots. That was fun and felt more realistic. Instead of dumbing down the game to where weapons are nothing more then stats lets make weapon systems more unique and different. Each with their own quirks. I dont want a game that all I look at putting on my ship is whatever has the highest dps.

2-Magazines. I dont like the idea. One reason has been stated " With the new system, a gun that is operating on fully automated control now might end up at the bottom of its magazine right as a handful of pilums are coming your way because they've been blasting at fighters. That's not fun or interesting, it's just frustrating.  " . However maybe is the magazine was increased to what the total ammo count was when ammo was limited we could simulate running out of ammo but still have the affect of unlimited. For example the Gauss Cannon had a total of 50 ammo. Make that the clip size 50 with a 1-2 or whatever minute reload.

3-Make ammo limited again with support ships (maybe carriers) that manufacture ammo mid battle and restock ships via shuttles that you can shoot. Making supply lines in battle and maybe a strategy to cut them off.Could add interesting mechanics to battles.

My preference would be a combination of 1 and 3. Give ballistics less total ammo count to where it matters(maybe upping their damage a tad to compensate for its disadvantages) and create supply lines via carriers/freighters. Shuttles loaded with ammo cost supplies as well. The power of ballistics would be balanced by the fact of limited ammo,dp for ships to resupply, and supply costs.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2015, 07:59:48 AM by MindsEye »
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