Fractal Softworks Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

Pages: 1 ... 27 28 [29] 30 31 ... 54

Author Topic: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes  (Read 325211 times)

Wyvern

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 3784
    • View Profile
Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #420 on: February 11, 2015, 10:44:13 AM »

It's actually quite logical.

The missiles that got ammunition regeneration are the ones that are meant as long-range pressure, where when you fire you have no idea if the missile is going to do anything useful or just slow the target down momentarily; thus, the ammo regen, so you can't bait them out of ammo at extreme range when you're totally safe.

The ones that got no ammo at all are the salamanders, which are mid-range utility missiles; again, they were easy to safely bait out all the ammo - but, unlike the LRMs, Alex didn't want these to suffer from reduced rate of fire later in the engagement.

And the ones that still have ammo are all the short-range high-power missiles, where okay you technically can bait them out of ammo, but you can't do so safely, because you have to be in range of other weapons and (typically) at high flux before the AI fires the things.
Logged
Wyvern is 100% correct about the math.

DatonKallandor

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 718
    • View Profile
Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #421 on: February 11, 2015, 10:49:25 AM »

It's actually quite logical.

The missiles that got ammunition regeneration are the ones that are meant as long-range pressure, where when you fire you have no idea if the missile is going to do anything useful or just slow the target down momentarily; thus, the ammo regen, so you can't bait them out of ammo at extreme range when you're totally safe.

The ones that got no ammo at all are the salamanders, which are mid-range utility missiles; again, they were easy to safely bait out all the ammo - but, unlike the LRMs, Alex didn't want these to suffer from reduced rate of fire later in the engagement.

And the ones that still have ammo are all the short-range high-power missiles, where okay you technically can bait them out of ammo, but you can't do so safely, because you have to be in range of other weapons and (typically) at high flux before the AI fires the things.

And yet, Salamanders have never performed that role. They've always been damage-with-extra-benefits - easily as powerful as Harpoons in actual gameplay, if not better. Contrast with Sabots, which are actual utility missiles (which don't really work in their true role because of how the AI juggles shielding, but whatever) that are still ammo limited. Hell, Proximity Charge Launchers are still ammo limited, and they're the definition of utility, being, in practice if not intent, a point defense option.

Add the huge problems the missile skills and hullmods pose for missile balance on top of that too - there's a ton of non-intuitive breakpoints, which is a problem by itself, but they also give different missiles wildly varying boost in power at different points. It's a huge balance mess because of fixed small ammo counts (and hell - doesn't the new Salamander implementation mean they are completely unaffected by the missile ammo skills and mods, despite being missiles?).

There's also the impact these changes have on point defense. Infinite long-range missiles (and utility missiles, if we call the Salamanders that) indicates the intent is for most ships to have point defense to defend against that. However point defense has the habit of making (some of) those other non-infinite missiles a hell of a lot worse. Especially Atropos torpedoes suffer tremendously from the slightest amount of PD.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2015, 10:59:32 AM by DatonKallandor »
Logged

Aklyon

  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 195
    • View Profile
Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #422 on: February 11, 2015, 11:15:36 AM »

Does 65.2a affect all of the mods because of the ballistics change, or do some of them work fine anyway?
« Last Edit: February 11, 2015, 11:24:11 AM by Aklyon »
Logged

Unfolder

  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 190
    • View Profile
Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #423 on: February 11, 2015, 11:44:12 AM »

The missile changes are a good first step, but they don't go nearly far enough. Every missile needs to work on the same ammo-regeneration system (either the Salamander fire-rate limited one, or the Pilums regenerating ammo - depending on role or whatever is easier to balance) - it stops them from being binary Overpowered-Useless and it's a great balancing lever.

This is 100% true. As it stands now regenerating missiles are insanely OP compared to non regenerating, to the point of uselessness for the nonregen. Hmm let's see, do I want one inaccurate but powerful tropedo 5000 damage torpedo in a ten minute fleet fight, or do I want 100 500 damage missiles that can keep destroying the enemy for the entire fight from across the map. Eventually all missiles will be made regen, it is inevitable from a balance perspective. When you look at it from the damage per OP across the entire battle, nonregen missiles are just wasted OP when you could have unlimited missiles with the same OP that in aggregate do far more damage than the nonregen. And of course, with multiple missile launchers from multiple ship the ridiculous OP waste of nonregen missiles becomes even more glaring. The ability to spam a steady stream of regens across the battlespace from afar, from multiple angles, for the entire battle, makes whatever hard hitting, one time benefit of a nongen worthless by comparison.

And to top it off, it's really stupid from a lore standpoint. Really? The astral can load dozens, hundreds, of torpedos onto fighter bombers in a fight, but the 500 *** manning the battle ship can't figure out how to load a torpedo tube on the fly? Derp derp, I guess the special eds are working on the flag ship.
Logged

Dark.Revenant

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 2806
    • View Profile
    • Sc2Mafia
Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #424 on: February 11, 2015, 12:14:12 PM »

Those 100x 500 dmg missiles are 10 OP while the 1x 4000 dmg torpedo is only 2 OP and calls for a smaller slot size.  Also, a Pilum launcher takes eleven and a half minutes to shoot off 100 missiles unless you have expanded racks, in which case it takes about eight and a half minutes.  Most battles are shorter.
Logged

Alex

  • Administrator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 23986
    • View Profile
Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #425 on: February 11, 2015, 12:16:48 PM »

Does 65.2a affect all of the mods because of the ballistics change, or do some of them work fine anyway?

Mods should still work fine, though the modded ballistic weapons will not use the clip-based reload mechanics until/unless they're updated to do so.

Logged

Megas

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 12117
    • View Profile
Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #426 on: February 11, 2015, 12:18:04 PM »

I still use Reapers for alpha striking dangerous ships, and 0 OP missiles when I cannot afford 4+ OP for Salamanders, but I find myself leaning much more heavily toward the Salamanders and Pilums than before.  Previously, it was Reapers, Annihilators, Swarmers, and Pilums.  Now, it is Reapers, Salamanders, and Pilums.  Maybe Annihilators for ships that cannot use Reapers but need burst damage (e.g., Onslaught vs. Onslaught).

Ships with Fast Missile Racks automatically get Salamanders.  It is a no-brainer.  They can easily kill ships before they become visible.  I do not pass up on overpowered options - I gladly exploit them.
Logged

Thaago

  • Global Moderator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 7173
  • Harpoon Affectionado
    • View Profile
Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #427 on: February 11, 2015, 01:32:37 PM »

Summary: Other than an exploit which is easy to fix, Salamanders help you kill things. Harpoons and Reapers kill things. If Harpoons/Reapers recharged, the optimal strategy would always be to wait until they do so before re-engaging.

...
And yet, Salamanders have never performed that role. They've always been damage-with-extra-benefits - easily as powerful as Harpoons in actual gameplay, if not better. Contrast with Sabots, which are actual utility missiles (which don't really work in their true role because of how the AI juggles shielding, but whatever) that are still ammo limited. ...

I disagree. Salamanders have complete crap for armor penetration or shield damage - getting hit with one is an inconvenience that turns deadly if and only if you need to maneuver soon or have already had your armor ripped apart. Other than the infinite spam with Fast Missile Racks, which is certainly a bug/oversight that can be fixed in like 3 seconds, they really aren't that good - even in the current version. Frigates will just dodge them on the shield and anything bigger most likely has point defense. However, in doing so they sometimes leave themselves open to other attacks. Its a pressure weapon that, other than an exploit, seems to me to be working as intended.

Harpoons and Reapers are just plain nasty. Getting hit with one on the armor makes for a bad day. Considering how Harpoons are usually fired in volleys, its usually a really bad day. A pair of Reapers, staggered fire, after driving up a destroyers flux = a dead destroyer. If these weapons recharged, it would always be the optimal strategy to fire a bit with guns to drive up flux, blow all the missiles, then retreat until they all come back. IMO that would be incredibly unfun gameplay.

The missile changes are a good first step, but they don't go nearly far enough. Every missile needs to work on the same ammo-regeneration system (either the Salamander fire-rate limited one, or the Pilums regenerating ammo - depending on role or whatever is easier to balance) - it stops them from being binary Overpowered-Useless and it's a great balancing lever.

This is 100% true. As it stands now regenerating missiles are insanely OP compared to non regenerating, to the point of uselessness for the nonregen. Hmm let's see, do I want one inaccurate but powerful tropedo 5000 damage torpedo in a ten minute fleet fight, or do I want 100 500 damage missiles that can keep destroying the enemy for the entire fight from across the map. Eventually all missiles will be made regen, it is inevitable from a balance perspective. When you look at it from the damage per OP across the entire battle, nonregen missiles are just wasted OP when you could have unlimited missiles with the same OP that in aggregate do far more damage than the nonregen. And of course, with multiple missile launchers from multiple ship the ridiculous OP waste of nonregen missiles becomes even more glaring. The ability to spam a steady stream of regens across the battlespace from afar, from multiple angles, for the entire battle, makes whatever hard hitting, one time benefit of a nongen worthless by comparison.

And to top it off, it's really stupid from a lore standpoint. Really? The astral can load dozens, hundreds, of torpedos onto fighter bombers in a fight, but the 500 *** manning the battle ship can't figure out how to load a torpedo tube on the fly? Derp derp, I guess the special eds are working on the flag ship.

This completely ignores one of the key, defining aspects of combat in SS: Any ship with a shield has infinite hitpoints. SS is all about getting the damage in when it counts: armor and hull. It makes no difference whatsoever if your LRM's end up doing 50,000 damage over the course of the battle if that damage is all taken on the shield and vented away.

Not to say Pilums are bad: they are excellent. But because they are slower, have worse maneuverability, have less hitpoints than Harpoons they have much less chance of getting through PD and connecting. Hence they are pressure weapons that, unless they can completely overwhelm, won't get the job done by themselves.
Logged

xenoargh

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 5078
  • naively breaking things!
    • View Profile
Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #428 on: February 11, 2015, 01:42:09 PM »

Quote
Those 100x 500 dmg missiles are 10 OP while the 1x 4000 dmg torpedo is only 2 OP and calls for a smaller slot size.  Also, a Pilum launcher takes eleven and a half minutes to shoot off 100 missiles unless you have expanded racks, in which case it takes about eight and a half minutes.  Most battles are shorter.
This is like comparing garbage trucks to tomatoes.

Missile spam is not a zero-sum proposition, like firing a torp generally is.  

That 1X4000 torpedo misses / gets intercepted more often than not (practical hit rates are probably <30% when we include AI, not to mention torps never fired at all because the torp AI is so cautious), while about 20-40% of the Pilums will do damage, at a greater engagement range, with capabilities that that torpedo doesn't have, like finishing off multiple targets.  It's a huge difference in real power :)

My take thus far:  I tried various flavors of this out in Vacuum, and it's a pain in the neck to get it right, for a bunch of reasons, but mainly it was a performance issue for me, with the much bigger battle sizes, because dead missiles weren't getting removed from the battlefield, amongst other things.  This is something I was going to fix, eventually, as it was causing some real problems; dead missiles in huge swarms (especially fast spammers like rocket racks) were a big problem, in terms of AI loading.

Ammo limits being off for all missiles is better, provided that feature is tweaked (say, a 1 second fade-out time after engines are out).  It makes things simpler than the current system, which has suddenly gotten massively more complicated and has only improved gameplay marginally and erratically.  Missiles have always had the pull problems associated with ammo-using weapons in general; if you can run them out, which was pretty easy with everything but Reapers / Pilums / Harpoons (sorta) then missiles were largely off the table and you could bring in your own missile shooters and have a huge advantage.  Taking out the ammo problem largely fixes that issue.  

But what we have here is, to be frank, utterly confusing and pretty arbitrary-feeling.  For example, Annihilators seem like a perfect fit for endless ammo; they were always largely useless spammers with just a few squirrel cases; letting them spam all the time would make them a genuinely useful weapon as a no-flux spammer.  But they have ammo limits.  Pilums, which were already the best missiles for long-term pressure and were the hardest to pull completely, don't, which makes them really great, and massively better than an Annihilator.  

A 5 OP Salamander completely wrecks an Annihilator, but more importantly, if the battle goes over 2 minutes, it wrecks a Harpoon firing three at a time, which costs more.  

Sure, that Harpoon might be really lethal- once- but it's not likely, vs. targets with some PD, or if fighters pull them, or whatever, whereas that Salamander is still reliable against just about any target, if for no other reason than its engine-killing effects, and will stay in the fight.  I'm not saying that the Harpoon isn't a good alpha-strike; it is, in player hands (and occasionally in AI hands, when it launches 12 or more in a massive volley) but generally speaking, the Harpoon has lost a great deal of relative power and I'd use the Salamander every time, if I could just get my hands on 3-pack launchers.  Even the single-tube version is a massive step up from an Annihilator that costs more, though.

I don't think the right answer is to nerf the ammo-less missiles or to buff the ammo-limited ones, though.  They really are about as lethal as they should be.  I'd just put ammo regen on the rest of them and then pick some times that make sense; probably 10 seconds for a Harpoon, 30+ seconds for Reapers, <1 second for Annihilators, 15 seconds for Atropos.  Adjusting those times to fix balance is probably the best way to get back to an even keel on this and simplify play, which has become massively more complicated with these changes and the clip system and is probably a confusing thing for newbies right now.
Logged
Please check out my SS projects :)
Xeno's Mod Pack

Toxcity

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 561
    • View Profile
Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #429 on: February 11, 2015, 02:45:07 PM »

Personally I think the missiles are fine as they are right now; the more support oriented missiles have regen, while the strike / assault based ones don't.

As for balancing FMR, I think it should generate more flux, and make the flux it generates hard-flux.
Logged

Megas

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 12117
    • View Profile
Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #430 on: February 11, 2015, 03:54:40 PM »

Quote
As for balancing FMR, I think it should generate more flux, and make the flux it generates hard-flux.
I doubt that will work, if Salamanders can still be launched afterwards.

Hard flux is meaningless when the attacker can launch unlimited missiles repeatedly at any enemy over 2000 units away and not yet visible, and kill it.

Attacker can vent spam FMR Salamander more easily than other weapons because attacker does not need to be close to any enemy.
Logged

ahrenjb

  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 225
    • View Profile
Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #431 on: February 11, 2015, 04:54:05 PM »

Well, I gave it a shot. Vanilla, no mods, fair play, to try out the changes. There are definitely a lot of positives about this release. I like the changes to the phase beam more than I thought I would. Feels like a better mid-range medium energy weapon now than it did before. Obviously the ship targeting shape changes is a good refinement. I also really like the change to the CR timer, I think this new system makes a lot more sense and alleviates some of the problems the timer system had to begin with. All of the "Miscellaneous" changes are great, too.

Now for the big one, the clip based ammo system for ballistics. A few people suggested or supported this idea as a compromise to the removal of ammo in general. I wanted to like it, played with it for a while, and I have to admit, I was wrong.

I really detest the clip based system. It sounded like an ok compromise between having the previous ammo system and no ammo at all, but in reality is worse than both. It doesn't serve any purpose but to break up engagements and interrupt your fights as you wait for ammo to trickle in. It adds an entire extra layer of complexity to ballistics that feels totally unnecessary, a step in the absolute opposite direction of what I understood the purpose of moving away from ammo in the first place was. To free up complexity for other parts of the game.

It feels disjointed and more in-the-way than anything else, and I hope to soon see it go away. An idea that was tested and didn't work out. Changes the entire feel of combat with ballistics, and not in any positive way.

I didn't think I would feel this way before, but after actually spending some time in game and using a variety of setups and weapons to give it a really fair try, I'm sure. If I had to choose between this and no ammo at all, I choose no ammo. I know you try things out all the time Alex, and based on how you think it works out it either makes it into the game or it doesn't, but I'm not sure what your thought process was here. Do you actually like this system? Did you decide to let the playerbase try it and, based on feedback, decide whether or not to keep it? Or did you try it, understand it sucked, and push it on the playerbase as punishment for not receiving the "no ammo for ballistics" change very well?

As for the new missiles, the Salamander is supremely annoying. I understand the desire to have "pressure weapons", but I don't really think missiles are the right choice here. Before there was something to trying to time your missile use right, now it doesn't really matter. It's just frustrating and unpleasant.
Logged

Unfolder

  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 190
    • View Profile
Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #432 on: February 11, 2015, 06:30:23 PM »

Starsector 0.65.2a - we've gimped half the missiles, made the others completely OP, and energy is STILL overwhelming better than everything, hahaha.

Quote
Those 100x 500 dmg missiles are 10 OP while the 1x 4000 dmg torpedo is only 2 OP and calls for a smaller slot size.  Also, a Pilum launcher takes eleven and a half minutes to shoot off 100 missiles unless you have expanded racks, in which case it takes about eight and a half minutes.  Most battles are shorter.
This is like comparing garbage trucks to tomatoes.

Missile spam is not a zero-sum proposition, like firing a torp generally is.  

That 1X4000 torpedo misses / gets intercepted more often than not (practical hit rates are probably <30% when we include AI, not to mention torps never fired at all because the torp AI is so cautious), while about 20-40% of the Pilums will do damage, at a greater engagement range, with capabilities that that torpedo doesn't have, like finishing off multiple targets.  It's a huge difference in real power :)

My take thus far:  I tried various flavors of this out in Vacuum, and it's a pain in the neck to get it right, for a bunch of reasons, but mainly it was a performance issue for me, with the much bigger battle sizes, because dead missiles weren't getting removed from the battlefield, amongst other things.  This is something I was going to fix, eventually, as it was causing some real problems; dead missiles in huge swarms (especially fast spammers like rocket racks) were a big problem, in terms of AI loading.

Ammo limits being off for all missiles is better, provided that feature is tweaked (say, a 1 second fade-out time after engines are out).  It makes things simpler than the current system, which has suddenly gotten massively more complicated and has only improved gameplay marginally and erratically.  Missiles have always had the pull problems associated with ammo-using weapons in general; if you can run them out, which was pretty easy with everything but Reapers / Pilums / Harpoons (sorta) then missiles were largely off the table and you could bring in your own missile shooters and have a huge advantage.  Taking out the ammo problem largely fixes that issue.  

But what we have here is, to be frank, utterly confusing and pretty arbitrary-feeling.  For example, Annihilators seem like a perfect fit for endless ammo; they were always largely useless spammers with just a few squirrel cases; letting them spam all the time would make them a genuinely useful weapon as a no-flux spammer.  But they have ammo limits.  Pilums, which were already the best missiles for long-term pressure and were the hardest to pull completely, don't, which makes them really great, and massively better than an Annihilator.  

A 5 OP Salamander completely wrecks an Annihilator, but more importantly, if the battle goes over 2 minutes, it wrecks a Harpoon firing three at a time, which costs more.  

Sure, that Harpoon might be really lethal- once- but it's not likely, vs. targets with some PD, or if fighters pull them, or whatever, whereas that Salamander is still reliable against just about any target, if for no other reason than its engine-killing effects, and will stay in the fight.  I'm not saying that the Harpoon isn't a good alpha-strike; it is, in player hands (and occasionally in AI hands, when it launches 12 or more in a massive volley) but generally speaking, the Harpoon has lost a great deal of relative power and I'd use the Salamander every time, if I could just get my hands on 3-pack launchers.  Even the single-tube version is a massive step up from an Annihilator that costs more, though.

I don't think the right answer is to nerf the ammo-less missiles or to buff the ammo-limited ones, though.  They really are about as lethal as they should be.  I'd just put ammo regen on the rest of them and then pick some times that make sense; probably 10 seconds for a Harpoon, 30+ seconds for Reapers, <1 second for Annihilators, 15 seconds for Atropos.  Adjusting those times to fix balance is probably the best way to get back to an even keel on this and simplify play, which has become massively more complicated with these changes and the clip system and is probably a confusing thing for newbies right now.

^^^^ This guy gets it. Balance the strike from non-strike missiles with reload time. "But but but but fights don't last that long usually" except for the ones that matter, you know, the actual hard ones with actual enemy fleets. The ones you would never want to bring strike missiles into (before this update, ANY missiles) outside of torpedo bombers because you need every OP for shooting, shields or flux. And besides, with the new capital degrading system, that makes kiting with destroyer torpedos only work once or twice before your CR degrades. And for God sakes its just so arbitrarily dumb. Holy crap it's just L O L pointlessly gimping half the missiles with no improvement in gameplay for no reason other than...WHAT?

"Why can't we reload the reapers commander?"
"Reapers cannot be reloaded, God wills it."
"But they're...they're sitting right there...right next to the giant pile of unlimited Piliums?"
"NO! WE CANNOT RELOAD THE REAPERS"
"But but but the crew is literally stuffing repears by the dozens into the torpedo bombers, look at them they are walking them over and stuffing them in"
"FIGHTER BOMBERS ARE SACRED! THE REAPERS ARE SACRED! GOOOOOOOOD WIIIIIILLS IT"


-----

I haven't actually tried the new version yet so I don't understand clips. Is the clips mean unlimited ammo in limited bursts? Or does clips mean limited ammo in limited bursts? IF the former, that is good, if the latter, that is just a more complicated version of the old bad ammo system. I would recommend a "reload" command similar to "flux vent" that automatically begins reloading a full clips to all ballistics, to give one control of the process. Other wise, wouldn't you have to shoot all your guns to make them empty, then reload? I'll try it out...
« Last Edit: February 11, 2015, 06:39:03 PM by Argh »
Logged

Midnight Kitsune

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 2846
  • Your Friendly Forum Friend
    • View Profile
Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #433 on: February 11, 2015, 06:36:28 PM »

Is the clips mean unlimited ammo in limited bursts? Or does clips mean limited ammo in limited bursts?
It is like the autopulse laser only the weapons regen ammo in chunks instead of single shots

I haven't actually tried the new version yet so I don't understand clips.

If you haven't played the new update yet, why are you saying that "we've gimped half the missiles, made the others completely OP, and energy is STILL overwhelming better than everything" hmm?
« Last Edit: February 11, 2015, 06:38:55 PM by Midnight Kitsune »
Logged
Help out MesoTroniK, a modder in need

2021 is 2020 won
2022 is 2020 too

Dri

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1403
    • View Profile
Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #434 on: February 11, 2015, 06:38:19 PM »

To be fair, you can stockpile much more ammo than the Autopulse so its only really similar if and when you finally zero out on ammo.
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 27 28 [29] 30 31 ... 54