Fractal Softworks Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Starsector 0.9.1a is out! (05/10/19); Blog post: Skills and Story Points (07/08/19)

Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 54

Author Topic: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes  (Read 253726 times)

Alex

  • Administrator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 15406
    • View Profile
Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2014, 05:54:45 PM »

I have to ask, what is the point of having balli and energy weapons now if there really isn't any difference between the two?
Ammo was cosmetic for many weapons, except for very long battles, and the mechanics of running out of ammo there weren't good. What separates energy and ballistic slots - and always did - are specialization through damage types and weapon mechanics (i.e. flak).
Logged

Alex

  • Administrator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 15406
    • View Profile
Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2014, 05:59:38 PM »

Very interesting changes, I'm looking forward to trying them out. Most seem to make sense, although scratching ammo seems a bit... mh, anticlimactic. Sensible, from a game design perspective, but not an exiting solution.

Yeah, it's just cleanup. Not exciting :)


Potential issue with the cruiser CR timer: Isn't it a viable option now to "siege" them with worthless shuttles or the like? Stay just out of range until shuttle CP runs out, retreat (the shuttle) and repeat until 7-9 minutes are over. One of this "efficient but boring" things. (I feel like this is said so often it could use its own term. Boricient? Bofficient?)

Potential fix: For frigates CP only runs down while an enemy is within the sight radius. What if for cruisers (could be all classes, effectively) that enemy had to be of equivalent strength to trigger CR loss? So it had to be another cruiser or two destroyers or four frigates/wings nearby (or however the system that decides about auto assignment calculates that).

Hmm, good point. Did that.
Logged

Uomoz

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 2643
  • 'womo'dz
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2014, 06:00:00 PM »

The changes are perfectly fine and I see the rationale. I also think that a lot of forum comrades didn't think about the changes that deeply before posting over-dramatic sentences.

1) Flux level buff: cool-ish mechanic... but 1000% times more powerful in player hands (for gimmicky reasons), so I can totally see why it need to be removed. I'm all in for changes that bring parity to the field, makes the game more challenging overall. The damage was compensated up, so most of the time this even means a buff for energy non-beam weapons.

2) Missiles are unchanged, if only for the fact that you can't actually wait for an AI ship to finish 3 types of missiles (support ones) before engaging. They also regenerate so slow that will hardly ever matters, unless you count on gaming the AI. High damage missiles/torps still have the same missile count and do not regenerate, so the core idea of missiles is definitely unchanged.

3) Same story for projectiles. There were only a few cases in which the projectiles count was actually a deciding factor in choosing a weapon. Most of the time it was a mid-fight hassle, and unfun micromanagement before battle for those who added/removed the ammo hullmod. While this change hardly means anything for the player, it kills gimmicky waiting-enemy-to-waste-all-ammo strategies. Some strategies/things need to be killed by design, like having a superior weapon that is better than all the others (same here, kill the optimal solutions to open up more interesting solutions).

4) Peak effectiveness: finally define the role of the Capital ships. A very cool change.
Logged

Midnight Kitsune

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 2644
  • Your Friendly Forum Friend
    • View Profile
Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2014, 06:01:54 PM »

DOH! Didn't see that last part... >.<
What is going to happen to Expanded Mags though? I mean their usefulness just dropped drastically
Logged
Stop trying to balance the game around a few minmaxers...
Programming is like sex:
One mistake and you have to support it for the rest of your life.

Tired of having your game crash because of out of date mods? Then click here!
Spoiler
Get Version Checker today! Now with 90% less hassle! Simply toss it into your mod folder, activate the mod like a normal one and BINGO you will now be informed of any and all updates when you start SS campaign up!
[close]

Alex

  • Administrator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 15406
    • View Profile
Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #19 on: December 04, 2014, 06:04:08 PM »

What is going to happen to Expanded Mags though? I mean their usefulness just dropped drastically

Good question, forgot about those - they're still useful for burst lasers and the AM blaster; should probably rename them to something more energy-related-sounding.
Logged

Midnight Kitsune

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 2644
  • Your Friendly Forum Friend
    • View Profile
Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #20 on: December 04, 2014, 06:06:32 PM »

4) Peak effectiveness: finally define the role of the Capital ships. A very cool change.
The CR timer making caps viable doesn't make sense as who the hell is going to run out of the timer on a destroyer let alone a cruiser?!
Logged
Stop trying to balance the game around a few minmaxers...
Programming is like sex:
One mistake and you have to support it for the rest of your life.

Tired of having your game crash because of out of date mods? Then click here!
Spoiler
Get Version Checker today! Now with 90% less hassle! Simply toss it into your mod folder, activate the mod like a normal one and BINGO you will now be informed of any and all updates when you start SS campaign up!
[close]

Cosmitz

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 753
    • View Profile
Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #21 on: December 04, 2014, 06:08:26 PM »

The high-flux energy bonus has been on the chopping board for enough time, was wondering when you'll decide on it and the 25% boost.. i don't know what that'll do to Plasmas but damn, those things were already insane.

The biggest insane change is the standardisation of 1000 range for beams. I.. don't know how this will work. Reduced OP cost? Ok, sure, tactical lasers needed a bit of something, but Gravitons and Phase especially were already very good. How will the AI know to 'push in' versus beams? As it stands after this patch, i could faceoff and destroy a good number of Frigates, Fighters and Destroyers using purely a Tempest with two Phase Beams. If the beams also have a long fade out like normal bullets... uh.

I do have faith in the design choice but text-only-off-the-bat seems too much.

Still, glad to see Laser PD's getting a bit of a look, i only used LR PDs myself for long range anyway simply because when we're talking under 200-300 meters projectile PD's do a much better job. But i guess this is not a buff to be considered alone..

>Salamander: both versions have unlimited ammo and require 20 seconds to reload
>Hurricane MIRV: regenerates 1 ammo every 20 seconds
>Pilum LRM: regenerates 1 ammo every 10 seconds

Uhm. Missile spam is a thing and was a thing but jesus. We'll REALLY need PD now. Especially for Salamanders which leads me to:

>Reduced OP cost of Light Dual MG

Expected given the other changes.

>Ballistic weapons: Now have unlimited ammo, except for Bomb Bay

How about antimatters? While i can understand the reasoning, since battles usually were over long before ammo became a concern most times and didn't present much of a choice.. i can't see why it still can't be kept as a possible creator for some cool events at the end of a big battle. In some setups, ammo was an actual thing you had to take into consideration. Not a lot, sure but i understand you used it as you do peak effectiveness now which leads me to:

>Destroyers and cruisers now have a peak effectiveness timer like frigates
>Roughly 5-7 minutes for destroyers and 7-9 for cruisers

I'm ok with this. I really was expecting this down the line since i think it works really well with frigates.

-----------

Top to bottom, i see this creating more visceral and quicker fights with a lot more going on and less 'dancing and prancing' around the field and more actual grunt work.

Again, don't know how i feel about beams, mostly since the AI can fail horribly when dealing with them, but if it can be worked around, i think this will finally set beams apart.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2014, 06:11:17 PM by Cosmitz »
Logged

Uomoz

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 2643
  • 'womo'dz
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #22 on: December 04, 2014, 06:09:57 PM »

4) Peak effectiveness: finally define the role of the Capital ships. A very cool change.
The CR timer making caps viable doesn't make sense as who the hell is going to run out of the timer on a destroyer let alone a cruiser?!

What I mean is, Capitals will only be the ones not affected by peak efficiency. You can't kite with anything anymore, without incurring in malfunctions, now.
Logged

Gothars

  • Global Moderator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 4155
  • Eschewing obfuscatory verbosity.
    • View Profile
Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #23 on: December 04, 2014, 06:10:45 PM »

What am I missing here?

It's a bit hard to put into words, I'll try. I think the difference between energy and ballistic weapon is not only about their core mechanics (damage specialization/effect) but also about how you feel while you use them.
Even when ammo count is not a practical issue most of the time, when I'm using ballistic the limited ammo is always in the back of my mind, making me want to act tactical and efficient. On the other hand energy weapons give me sense of freedom, suggesting that I have limitless attempts to engage my opponent as long as I don't mess up my defense. Same with high flux damage bonus, while you're right in that it is very rarely intentionally used, it works as a consolation when I have high flux.

So, these little "side mechanics", while having little practical influence on the gameplay, attribute to the different feel of weapon classes over-proportionally. It's all just in the players' head... but that's the place you're aiming at anyway, isn't it?


That said, I'd assume those mechanics will be forgotten pretty quickly ;)
« Last Edit: December 04, 2014, 06:12:53 PM by Gothars »
Logged

Midnight Kitsune

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 2644
  • Your Friendly Forum Friend
    • View Profile
Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #24 on: December 04, 2014, 06:22:50 PM »

Another question: How are the flux stats on the balli weapons going to be balanced now that they have unlimited ammo? (The theroy being that low flux but limited ammo vs unlimited ammo and high flux)
Logged
Stop trying to balance the game around a few minmaxers...
Programming is like sex:
One mistake and you have to support it for the rest of your life.

Tired of having your game crash because of out of date mods? Then click here!
Spoiler
Get Version Checker today! Now with 90% less hassle! Simply toss it into your mod folder, activate the mod like a normal one and BINGO you will now be informed of any and all updates when you start SS campaign up!
[close]

Alex

  • Administrator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 15406
    • View Profile
Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #25 on: December 04, 2014, 06:26:15 PM »

How about antimatters? While i can understand the reasoning, since battles usually were over long before ammo became a concern most times and didn't present much of a choice.. i can't see why it still can't be kept as a possible creator for some cool events at the end of a big battle. In some setups, ammo was an actual thing you had to take into consideration. Not a lot, sure but i understand you used it as you do peak effectiveness now which leads me to:

AM blasters still keep ammo, imo it's one of the cases where ammo is meaningful.

As to the "cool events", that makes sense, but I think critical malfunctions in weapons etc take the place of that for extra-long battle, as you're basically saying.

Again, don't know how i feel about beams, mostly since the AI can fail horribly when dealing with them, but if it can be worked around, i think this will finally set beams apart.

Yeah, that might be a concern and something to iterate.



What am I missing here?

It's a bit hard to put into words, I'll try. I think the difference between energy and ballistic weapon is not only about their core mechanics (damage specialization/effect) but also about how you feel while you use them.
Even when ammo count is not a practical issue most of the time, when I'm using ballistic the limited ammo is always in the back of my mind, making me want to act tactical and efficient. On the other hand energy weapons give me sense of freedom, suggesting that I have limitless attempts to engage my opponent as long as I don't mess up my defense. Same with high flux damage bonus, while you're right in that it is very rarely intentionally used, it works as a consolation when I have high flux.

So, these little "side mechanics", while having little practical influence on the gameplay, attribute to the different feel of weapon classes over-proportionally. It's all just in the players' head... but that's the place you're aiming at anyway, isn't it?

Ah, I see - yeah, that makes perfect sense. I actually tried something similar with missiles (i.e. regenerating ammo across the board) and it totally destroyed the feel of missiles, for similar reasons. (And so was rolled back for everything but the 3 mentioned.) I do think with most missiles that limited ammo is a defining characteristic, though, so it has much more of an impact there.

It does make me wonder whether giving ballistic weapons absurdly high ammo (Needler levels or above) purely for flavor might be worthwhile, although it'd also be misleading, as in presenting a stat that's actually meaningless. I mean, high enough ammo that the CR timer would always run out first, except for capitals.

Another option on the table was giving capital ships built-in hullmods that give unlimited ballistic ammo... different ways of approaching the same problem, really.


Another question: How are the flux stats on the balli weapons going to be balanced now that they have unlimited ammo? (The theroy being that low flux but limited ammo vs unlimited ammo and high flux)

That wasn't the theory :) Limited ammo doesn't work as a short-term balancing factor at all, the way flux does. The balance is a combination of damage type, flux cost, range, and the general flux stats of the types of ships that have the relevant mount types. Adjusting/removing ammo limits doesn't factor in here.

The exception are things like missiles, where ammo matters short-term.
Logged

Midnight Kitsune

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 2644
  • Your Friendly Forum Friend
    • View Profile
Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #26 on: December 04, 2014, 06:36:09 PM »

I like the thought of the "unlimited ammo" hullmod instead of just flat out having unlimited ammo
Logged
Stop trying to balance the game around a few minmaxers...
Programming is like sex:
One mistake and you have to support it for the rest of your life.

Tired of having your game crash because of out of date mods? Then click here!
Spoiler
Get Version Checker today! Now with 90% less hassle! Simply toss it into your mod folder, activate the mod like a normal one and BINGO you will now be informed of any and all updates when you start SS campaign up!
[close]

BillyRueben

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1405
    • View Profile
Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #27 on: December 04, 2014, 06:36:19 PM »

Seem like good changes to me. Not sure what the fuss is about.
Logged

Schwartz

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1063
    • View Profile
Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #28 on: December 04, 2014, 06:40:14 PM »

The Ammo mechanic is responsible for more than just an "Oh ***!" moment when it runs out. It shapes the entire playstyle. High-damage, low-ammo weapons have to be used with caution and aimed carefully. High RoF also means that you can decide to burst-damage your way to a blaze of glory early in a match to tip the scales, but it'll come at a tradeoff. A prolonged fight might've seen most of your Vulcans run out of ammo and you frantically twisting and turning shields to try and keep your head above water.

While the Flux damage bonus was rather arbitrary and we can all live without it, the other changes effectively turn all weapons into the same thing running on different numbers. We can all agree that ballistics are simply better than the alternatives. They can wreck you and do it not expending much flux. What comes next, upping their flux to not make them too OP in comparison to Energy? You see where I'm going with this. I love the variety and I'm forced to see this as a narrowing down of variety and playstyle, or conversely bringing all weapons up to a certain plateau of similarity and power. One less thing to worry about translates into more single-minded battles, which is in my opinion a bad thing. Arcade is fun and all, but simulation feels more satisfying.

Though, just to make it clear, this doesn't mean you shouldn't go for it. A game isn't static and nothing says we can't play it differently once in a while, see how it feels. I kinda hope it'll be a temporary change all the same.  ;)
« Last Edit: December 04, 2014, 06:42:40 PM by Schwartz »
Logged

Cosmitz

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 753
    • View Profile
Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #29 on: December 04, 2014, 06:43:44 PM »

I like the thought of the "unlimited ammo" hullmod instead of just flat out having unlimited ammo

I'd rather have, like with how Tugs work currently, a freighter-class assigned to each capital, to give them 'unlimited ammo' in combat in the form of being 'well stocked'.

Would force more freighters in fleets and more to consider than just slapping on a capital and going wild. But then again, that'd imply making ammo less of a unitary thing, and more of a 'status' effect, even fractionary, which would be cool to apply to the entire fleet.


---------------

Another thing, related to missiles. Missiles could be split strategically in 'tactical' missiles like the Salamander, event the Sabot, missiles that alone cannot and should not win an engagement, which would be fine to be regenerative/unlimited. Then area-denial, like Pilums and Annihilators, which should work in bursts, unlike now where we mostly fire off unitary 'salvoes', but limited and used more in the sense of 'laying a minefield' or 'burning ground' rather than direct damage, and these should stay limited, but not too constrained, and direct-damage like Harpoons and Torpedoes, which should be used sparsely and given as they currently have, 1-3 shots maximum.

Salamanders and Sabots will need to have ZERO hull/armor damage though.

Point being, missiles as 'activateable' abilities. I never really considered them to be an actual weapon system, and i think most people use them as a tactical option. (AI aside, they just pew out all the Harpoons first second they see anyone)

Under this way of thinking, they'd be similar to ship systems and i don't think that's a bad thing. I'd actually think it pretty cool to integrate them as such, 'installable' ship systems in OP slots. Wouldn't per se change anything in the way the game plays, but in the way the game is felt and perceived.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2014, 06:58:03 PM by Cosmitz »
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 54