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Author Topic: 0.65a Starmap and Economy issue from End-User PoV  (Read 5327 times)

TartarusMkII

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0.65a Starmap and Economy issue from End-User PoV
« on: November 01, 2014, 05:41:32 PM »

This is in reference to version 0.6.5a and the current issue where endusers must edit files in order to position Faction's home systems and enable their economy.

I understand that the nature of this issue is not the fault of modders, but I want to give some feedback from someone who uses (and loves) these mods. I can only dream of having the skill to program and create artwork like you lot can, so I'll do my part to at least try to assist with these issues we're having.

After almost an hour of reading, I am still confused as to which mod each requires this work around to be done for. For example, somewhere in the thread for the Shadowyards faction, someone says you do need to position their system and economy, and then later on the mod's creator says you do not. On the other hand, the Citadel's creator says in a later post in their thread, "Both of lines you need to add are called Citadel." Okay, but what about the coordinates?

What I'd like so much is if each of the modded factions would carry this info in their original post, as I just hate trying to fish through the threads of each of these factions to find the contradictory information!

Thanks for reading, I appreciate it, and again, only trying to help.

Updates:

I am hoping that this thread can serve as a common place for the factional authors to discuss this issue as it seems that everyone is not on the same page. I am noticing from my own ignorant work that trying to update SCY's Acheron and Tartarus through the starmap.json is not working, and leads me to believe that some other .jar is overriding it. The symptom for these two systems are that they are appearing in places on the map where they should not be (afaik) and Tartarus is not accessible, nor hidden as it is supposedly meant to be.

Adding coordinates for the Mayorate's Rasht was succesful, as was the Citadel.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2014, 06:12:37 PM by TartarusMkII »
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Debido

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Re: 0.65a Starmap and Economy issue from End-User PoV
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2014, 07:06:21 PM »

Tartarus is accessible, you just need to "follow the white rabbit" :) You're lucky I didn't make finding it even harder.

Dude, seriously, we've had the new version for what? 2 weeks? Not everyone has the time to convert their economy to the Java method.

0.65RC1 had a day zero bug in it relating to the economy loading via JSON, it was about 6 days later (of actually playing/testing) I figured out adding markets to a system via Java, and less than 7 days later several mod authors have implemented that method or something similar or procedural - but not yet all.

Anyway the whole issue is going to be moot in a couple of days when Alex drops RC2, but I suspect most mature mods will implement the Java methods available due to it's flexibility and hot update capability.

Anyway, Citadel has been converted to the Java method, so expect to see an updated version soon.
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TartarusMkII

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Re: 0.65a Starmap and Economy issue from End-User PoV
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2014, 07:11:27 PM »

About Tartarus, my issue is not that it is inaccessible, it's that I am unsure if it is spawning correctly. In the thread's instructions that are near the most recent page of the mod's thread, the coordinates for Acheron and Tartarus at the same coordinates. But on my intel screen, they are not together, and I am not complaining, I am only stating that it confuses me as far as trying to understand if the system had worked or not.

Also, I am not complaining about the economy method, etc. I know the modders need time, I'm not asking for any content to be released any sooner. All I am /suggesting/, is that for the sake of your fans and users, you should post the work around instructions in the original post of the thread (see Kazi's Mayorate.)

I'm very appreciative you took the time to respond here, and again, I am not meaning to put pressure on any of you.

Edit #1 - I am not actually sure who's responsible for Acheron and Tartarus. Another problem with the lack of detail of these original posts! =P

Edit #2 - I was thinking, it's my personal recommendation that "ideally", if your mod uses a work around that does not require the user to edit files, it would not be necessary to mention it in the original post. Otherwise, again ideally, it'd be best to make users aware.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2014, 07:48:43 PM by TartarusMkII »
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Sundog

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Re: 0.65a Starmap and Economy issue from End-User PoV
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2014, 07:15:59 PM »

Good call Tartarus. Done.

Debido

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Re: 0.65a Starmap and Economy issue from End-User PoV
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2014, 08:13:20 PM »

The mods are not using a 'work around' by the definition of it, they're generating their economy and setting the hyperspace position in the same Java file they currently use to generate the star system. It actually makes sense to generate your system and pass the sector entities you just made straight into creating a market, than to split it up and put it into a couple of JSON files.

To be honest the whole...json file method for setting up economies seems rather redundant, unless it's to help avoid using generics in setting up your star system / economy for new comers to SS modding?

Anyway, even if we did put in big red letter some form of notification about having to, or not having to edit files - you'd be surprised how many would TL;DR and just start playing without reading instructions.

I've sent Kazi a Java version of his economy, so with any luck he'll have that tested/sorted when he has time.
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TartarusMkII

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Re: 0.65a Starmap and Economy issue from End-User PoV
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2014, 08:20:22 PM »

Debido, thanks for responding.

I'm having trouble understanding which mod it is you actually represent- could you please let me know so I can give you a proper response? Thanks.
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Debido

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Re: 0.65a Starmap and Economy issue from End-User PoV
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2014, 08:42:16 PM »

I do a bit of coding work here and there for a few mods, we all kinda help each other out a bit with code and art. I've been trying to get 'a' faction out in co-operation with Ryxsen for a while now, but the art is being continually delayed and reworked.

I do other stuff though that is mostly my own, like the PixelCounter, DistortionMaker, TWIG Tech and Starsector Statistics mod which are used to help other modders.
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TartarusMkII

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Re: 0.65a Starmap and Economy issue from End-User PoV
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2014, 08:50:24 PM »

Anyway, even if we did put in big red letter some form of notification about having to, or not having to edit files - you'd be surprised how many would TL;DR and just start playing without reading instructions.

I've sent Kazi a Java version of his economy, so with any luck he'll have that tested/sorted when he has time.

Thanks for the detail, I appreciate your help in the community! Also, from my side of the screen, thank you for helping Kazi- his kind words with me have kept me interested in the lot of us here.

Though, even if some users would TL;DR and only find the mod did not work, that would (if they did not simply drop the mod) to go to the thread and read more closely the original post to see if they missed something, and then find this work-around information.
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MShadowy

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Re: 0.65a Starmap and Economy issue from End-User PoV
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2014, 08:52:24 PM »

As Debido noted, the method is not exactly a work around; rather it totally avoids the problems of merging jsons by sticking the economy data directly into the java for the system generation.

I should note that the mod I'm working on, Shadowyards, now makes use of this method, and despite a few initial hiccups with correctly assigning planet ownership using this method, it's now working smoothly.  As such, there's no need to create a modified json file for it; that's already been handled in the compiled java.

Unfortunately at this time, it can probably be fairly stated that we do not have the time necessary to come up with a unified method of dealing the existing json issues with Starsector--the issue itself has several potential answers with varying degrees of utility, and not all modders can works at the same rate or solve problems with code.  Fortunately, as already noted, we're likely to have a release which fixes json merging issues in fairly short order.
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TartarusMkII

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Re: 0.65a Starmap and Economy issue from End-User PoV
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2014, 09:08:09 PM »

I'm sorry, it seems that the way I've worded something in this thread has taken some of you off guard, and I apologize for that.

I'm not calling the merging of the information in the compiled java a work around. I'm refering to having the end user edit files as the work around. You  all mention to me the lack of time you have- yes, I understand this, and I could never use words to adequately explain how impressed and thankful I am for the skills you all bring to this game (and all the games we mod here on the internet.) I just want you guys to understand that.

There are not many mods as of this evening that do not have the aforementioned fix in them, or do not have work around information in their original post, so consider this thread a service and notice to those who are going to be updating their mods from 6.2 to 6.5.

Again, I regret that my wording allowed anyone to derive the wrong idea from what I'm trying to do here. And I encourage you to not so quickly think that people are criticizing, rather than trying to assist in making a better product (or work of art, if you prefer) to be enjoyed by patrons.

Thanks.
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Tartiflette

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Re: 0.65a Starmap and Economy issue from End-User PoV
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2014, 01:00:34 AM »

In Scy thread:
It is in regards to the current issue of having to edit files to get factions to work, from the perspective of an end-user.

Allow me to quote myself, only 4 posts above yours:  ;)
Thanks to Debido's awesome advises, Scy no longer need you to edit the core files and is compatible with any other faction mods straight out of the .rar!

The whole modifying economy and starsystem was only a temporary measure while we were trying to make the mods compatible. Now everything works and you no longer have to edit anything for most mods, and the coming patch will take care of the remaining ones. But I could have made it more visible, I'll give you that (I'll correct that just when I finish this post)

On the location of Tartarus: the area of space it was located was getting crowded, and there will be a major modded trade hub sometime near there too. It was a good time to move them in a more quiet area. And it's now visible to avoid the intel tab crash:
reworked Tartarus system, it can now be accessed through the star from hyperspace (with navigation level 7), or using the same hidden access than before.

I understand the confusion, but I preferred to change things quickly than requiring people to modify their files or avoid opening the intel tab at all (I lost my progress several times myself, I did not appreciated it). I'm still unsure I'll keep Tartarus this way, or at least the hidden access. We'll see where it goes in time. Anyway, thanks for pointing the lack of clarity, and thanks for your interest in Scy. I hope you'll enjoy the new system!  ;D
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TartarusMkII

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Re: 0.65a Starmap and Economy issue from End-User PoV
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2014, 01:08:39 AM »

But I could have made it more visible, I'll give you that (I'll correct that just when I finish this post)

Hey Tartiflette, thanks for responding! I appreciate I could help, but I just wanted to point this out.. You don't have to give me anything, I'm not challenging you. I will admit, as was pointed out to me privately, I feel like this thread is generating a lot of a defensive nature from you guys. One modder says that the end user is just going to TL;DR, while another suggests that I could have just read the thread to see all these things I've missed.

Why else would I recommend moving these details to the original post?

This thread will persist I'm sure, but I just want to be clear that I'm pretty disappointed with the reaction I've gotten from the modders I so much appreciate over this thread. I can understand that you must feel the pressure of complaints of users who are never 100% happy with your work, but I only wish that you could have seen that here, in this thread, the notion would be different before you posted your responses. Thank you to those of you who did respond appreciatively to my attempt.

I'm going to unsub to this thread, though I hope it'll persist, and serve a purpose for others.
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Tartiflette

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Re: 0.65a Starmap and Economy issue from End-User PoV
« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2014, 01:45:47 AM »

...
I was trying to be helpful here, responding your questions about Tartarus and Scy... Maybe you should take them as what they are: answers, not aggressions.
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