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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: Starsector and mod ships graphics analysis  (Read 12154 times)

Okim

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Re: Starsector and mod ships graphics analysis
« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2014, 03:59:18 AM »

I wonder which faction did produce the 26% grey for Ironclads. ISA? :)

Debido

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Re: Starsector and mod ships graphics analysis
« Reply #16 on: August 27, 2014, 04:16:25 AM »

I've attached a detailed analysis of all of them. Don't take much notice of the colour variance statistics for the moment, still going through the validation process for them.

Some time when this thing is finished might look at doing the different factions individually, and perhaps outputting these stats to a CSV or HTML file.

[attachment deleted by admin]
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Okim

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Re: Starsector and mod ships graphics analysis
« Reply #17 on: August 27, 2014, 05:02:16 AM »

Thanks.

Didn`t realize that I was using almost the same amount of grey for RSF as for ISA. Kinda weird I must say...

Wyvern

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Re: Starsector and mod ships graphics analysis
« Reply #18 on: August 27, 2014, 09:14:07 AM »

@Sundog:
One thing I'd try, actually, is going for a slight iridescence, instead of adding a single color.  You'd probably want it to be a bit subtler than the tan you demonstrated earlier in thread, but I think that might work well for the white armor bits.  (Oddly, in my work with 3D art, adding a bit of iridescence often resulted in an object that looked whiter than a plain white version!  Sadly, I don't think I kept any example images of that effect around.)

But I don't think it's the white panels that need the most attention on your ships, either; for example, the two hexagonal background segments near the center of the ship look very flat - and, aside from the occasional bit of blue-green lighting, the rest is not that much better.  Unfortunately, I don't have any really good suggestions for how to address this - it just looks like it could be done better, but I'm not really sure how.  Yeah, not the most useful of feedback, I know.  >.<
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Wyvern is 100% correct about the math.

Sundog

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Re: Starsector and mod ships graphics analysis
« Reply #19 on: August 27, 2014, 07:09:58 PM »

Ok, you guys have convinced me; at some point I'm going to do a major artistic overhaul of my faction. It'll have to wait a while, as I am planning on making it content 'complete' at some point, but I'm starting to see a lot of exciting opportunities for improvement  :)

@kazi
Yep, I like the lighting too in spite of the quirks. Rest assured; there's no risk of me reverting to my old, backward way of trying to avoid 'over-the-top' lighting. Still, I'd like to work on improving it at some point, and I'll keep point-lights in mind when I do. (I'm making a list of potential ways to improve)
On stripes: They could add a lot of things I want; color, detail, and (most importantly imo) a strong indication of the depth contours of the armor. I still worry that any stripes with significant contrast would disrupt the form of the armor, but I'm sure there are ways to mitigate that. And you're right; it would be a lot of work to add stripes to the current style. We'll see.

@Wyvern
Iridescence would be frickin' sweet. Right now I have no idea how to go about creating iridescent lighting, but I'll add it to my list and see if I can figure it out later.
Yeah... there's a reason I try to cover up as much of the dark under-structure as I can. Here's the Abraxas without its clothes on:
Spoiler
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I want to try replacing that whole pattern cutout with various kitbashed greebles (probably from free AI War assets). Not sure how that'll turn out, but I'm optimistic.

mendonca

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Re: Starsector and mod ships graphics analysis
« Reply #20 on: August 28, 2014, 05:24:34 AM »

Thanks for all this, Debido, I look forward hopefully to a tool of some description being released.

Whilst reading this thread and contemplating some things or other I found this, what appears to be useful, online 3d histogram viewer:

http://3dhistogram.com

I think it works pretty well to give a good visualisation of where the colours are, case in point:

Spoiler
The Kraken:


compared to the Onslaught (one of the earlier ships with a slightly darker range)


Quite clearly, the Kraken, whilst having a decent enough dynamic range, appears to be far too dark. There's a big representation of the central line of greys as well, which could do with some work, and the black splodge is too big.
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"I'm doing it, I'm making them purple! No one can stop me!"

Debido

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Re: Starsector and mod ships graphics analysis
« Reply #21 on: August 28, 2014, 06:13:03 AM »

That's a really interesting tool, I've been looking at a few ships through the 3D histogram, though I think I need to read some more documentation on how to interpret it correctly.
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ValkyriaL

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Re: Starsector and mod ships graphics analysis
« Reply #22 on: August 28, 2014, 08:34:10 AM »

Considering if i Should add more Color to the Valks, 50%+ seems kinda bad, then again, their hulls are grey, so slightly unavoidable. i did try to add different shades of grey and black here and there to simulate height, armor sloping, and roundness around the edge of the ship.
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CrashToDesktop

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Re: Starsector and mod ships graphics analysis
« Reply #23 on: August 28, 2014, 04:15:06 PM »

To be brutally honest, I'm not liking this way of analyzing sprites very much - it's sort of like the XVM conspiracy with World of Tanks.  Someone pulls of your stats and calls you a noob for having a 30% winrate over 7,000 matches.  Now, you could be a bad tanker in a 1v1 scenario, but you could also be one of the best team players, backing up your other teammates, moving up with pushes, or even simply being there to deter an enemy from rounding the corner or not dying in the first 5 minutes of a match.

That's the feeling I'm getting with the histogram.  It's a mechanical evaluation of a sprite, it simply does not equate to the perfect sprite.  Hell, ValkyriaL and Sundog have pretty much choosen to modify their sprites solely based on this graph (no offense, though), which shouldn't be the case all the time.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2014, 04:16:45 PM by The Soldier »
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Sundog

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Re: Starsector and mod ships graphics analysis
« Reply #24 on: August 28, 2014, 04:59:09 PM »

I don't think anyone here is fooling themselves into thinking good sprites need to have histograms and color schemes that are numerically similar to vanilla sprites. I think number-based comparisons like this are interesting and potentially useful for improvement, but a decent metric for aesthetic appeal? Not at all. Aesthetics are far too subjective and complicated to be judged by any analytical metric. However, similarity to the art style of vanilla is generally desirable, so analysis that gives indications of how sprites deviate from that style can be pretty useful.

As for me choosing to modify my sprites based on histograms, no offence taken, but you're simply wrong. I've wanted to add more color to my sprites for several months now. Debido's OP only prompted me to ask for suggestions about how to do that. The feedback I got from spriters whose work I admire is what convinced me to change my sprites. And anyway, (correct me if I'm wrong) but the histograms show information about variation in lightness/darkness, regardless of hue.

Cycerin

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Re: Starsector and mod ships graphics analysis
« Reply #25 on: August 28, 2014, 05:38:55 PM »

Well, it's kinda like how you could look at the spectrum of a piece of music and be able to roughly tell if its got too much bass or too little, or if there's weird notches and gaps or something. But your ears would still tell you the same thing, you just wouldn't be able to put your finger on PRECISELY what was wrong. I dont really know what my point is except that I like "dancing about architecture" type comparisons...
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Debido

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Re: Starsector and mod ships graphics analysis
« Reply #26 on: August 28, 2014, 06:13:10 PM »

@ Soldier

I can understand where you're coming from, valuing numbers exclusively over a subjective evaluation with the eye is not something I'm recommending. Statistical about the image is just data to be interpreted to validate your views on it. Sometimes it's difficult to describe with words if a ship looks one way or another without knowing if what your saying is accurate. You may think your ship has too many shades of grey by looking at it, but without a tool to evaluate every pixel and confirm that you won't know.

If you're able to make a ship look great with some greys, blacks and whites and a very low amount of colours in your palette - props to you, well done on making a visually striking and interesting ship. However if you're trying to make the best looking ship you can within your skills and available time, you have a well designed ship but the colour, shading or overall grading just doesn't match the vanilla ship you're envisioning - then it's time to get some tools to help assess the ship in a non-subjective way.

After the person has that data they then interpret it and potentially come to a different subjective view on how to improve their ship.

Now I've made my statements about the colour grey, and it still stands, as a colour it just doens't exist in nature and is use very little in vanilla - that choice by David Baumgart help lead to a particular overall look. If you're trying to match that 'look' of vanilla, then it's a good idea to try and match those parameters.
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Thule

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Re: Starsector and mod ships graphics analysis
« Reply #27 on: August 28, 2014, 06:51:36 PM »

Spoiler
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Sundog

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Re: Starsector and mod ships graphics analysis
« Reply #28 on: August 29, 2014, 12:43:49 PM »

Thanks Thule :)
Something like that would certainly add more color and fixes some of the lighting issues. As with Kazi's suggestion about stripes, I'd like to keep the armor free of decorative paint if possible, but we'll see.
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