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Author Topic: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8f  (Read 626949 times)

A Random Jolteon

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Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8c
« Reply #915 on: July 23, 2017, 04:04:49 PM »

My first fight against the Templars. I was using a modded faction with a mix of Ballistic Energy and Missile weapons, with a slight focus of energy.
My side: 1 destroyer, 1 Escort Carrier (Basically a smaller carrier), 2 frigates.
Allies: 6 destroyers, 6+ frigates, 1 Escort carrier(Maybe Poi?). (Spread out along two picket fleets)

Knights Templar: 2 destroyers, 2 frigates, 2 corvettes


End result:
My side: Destroyer Heavily damaged, 1 Frigate heavily damaged, 1 Frigate Moderately damaged
Allies: 4 destroyers blown to bits, 5 frigates destroyed, Carrier N/A (Forgot to look at it)


Lesson of this post? Never underestimate the Templar's. Ever.
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OzarMidrashim

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Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8c
« Reply #916 on: July 23, 2017, 04:14:34 PM »

We all know...they use P90's, Apple Artefact and Bronze Spear...alongside other dirty hax hex and secret cheats.

I like whole idea, of some zealots who encountered and pillaged ancient artefacts from holly temples of long forgotten ancients, and now behave like they own everything and are most suited to lead and set in stone what is what.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2017, 04:17:21 PM by OzarMidrashim »
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There is only one rule always in (load)order...be responsible and know what you're doing.

Midnight Kitsune

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Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8c
« Reply #917 on: July 23, 2017, 04:23:51 PM »

...they use P90's...
What is this, Stargate?
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OzarMidrashim

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Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8c
« Reply #918 on: July 23, 2017, 04:56:47 PM »

...they use P90's...
What is this, Stargate?

FN P90 ...futuristic personal balistic weapon, designed some time ago that absolutley declass everything. Immagine 50 rounds, compact, almost no recoil, accurate, fast firing, submachinegun with rifle ammo that eats through vests.

Yea... SG1 from Stargate used them to...just after they diched MP5's.
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There is only one rule always in (load)order...be responsible and know what you're doing.

Drokkath

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Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8c
« Reply #919 on: July 24, 2017, 04:42:37 PM »

Heh, how fitting to consider the Templars as the Ori of Starsector, one of the reasons the Templars are the first faction to go in my playthroughs. Damn was it difficult to watch Stargate SG-1 when they introduced those holier-than-thous, felt like punching through the screen to shut up their BS. Can at least finally beat/kick/stomp/maim/kill/obliterate such similar baddies into useless shreds of tiny pieces.

I'm glad that this mod exists though, have lost count how many times I've torn through Templar fleets and in my head after invading their planet I imagine nuke-bombarding their planet into a lifeless rock and crushing any left-over Templar warrior/officer/whatever-rank's square helmet/head into a crushed and bloody scrap with the boot of my demonically superior pressurized-power-armor-space-hazard-suit.

Recently even went as far as to recover their ships only to scuttle them. I got nothing against the mod-maker or something along those lines, I just do what I do in-game to get rid of my frustrations and it tends to include all religions, both Luddic Church and Luddic Path get the extermination marked at their way too in my playthroughs, after wiping them all out I move on to wiping most of everything else.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2017, 04:44:59 PM by Drokkath »
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orost

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Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8c
« Reply #920 on: July 25, 2017, 10:01:06 AM »

I do miss the old power level of the Templars. In 0.65 they used to be frightening, and if I wanted to kill a Paladin, I had to design a fleet around that goal and even then it wasn't easy. I remember that killing a Templar fleet with two Paladins was something that I could just barely do, after multiple attempts, with a maxed out character and fleet fully optimized for that task. I was probably bad at the game back then, and lack of officers didn't help, but, still...

Now they're just very strong and a Paladin is about as much of a threat as any good capital ship.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2017, 10:06:35 AM by orost »
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Mr. Nobody

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Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8c
« Reply #921 on: July 25, 2017, 12:10:49 PM »

Agree on that, they seem so... Balanced now.
I'm not sure if it's because vanilla/mods became more powerful and the Templars didn't follow suit or the Templars were being nerfed but i can find myself easily taking their destroyers with a relatively small fleet, their cruisers take a bit more but i can usually grind them down with little losses.
I personally blame the fighter rework for that.
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King Alfonzo

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Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8c
« Reply #922 on: July 25, 2017, 05:29:51 PM »

Nah, it has to do with salvage mechanics. It used to be really, REALLY hard to acquire a templar ship, or just difficult to aquire templar weapons. However, now it's a lot easier to get a Templar ship post-battle, and it's easier to get templar weaponry without actually fighting them. So to balance it, the templars got nerfed. I think this has been somewhat fixed in the most recent Templar patch, but it's still too easy to aquire templar technology. Hence, the balance.

If it became just as difficult to get a Templar ship or weaponry as in 0.7.2, then I imagine Rev will ramp up their OPness.

Schwartz

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Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8c
« Reply #923 on: August 01, 2017, 01:09:46 PM »

Some feedback re: Templar power and the new version.

Crucifix missiles have great visuals, but they feel weak. They plink against decently strong shields and armour both. They don't inspire the dread that comes with other signature Templar weapons. Essentially ships favouring these over Clarents are fighting with a handicap. Try building a Paladin around as many Crucifix systems as you can fit and have him fight a few simulator battles. Compare with classic loadouts. For a frontloaded weapon system, it's not bursty enough. I'd recommend either making it more regenerative or adding more flux spike / EMP.

The Chevalier seems to be bugged. By default, all weapon ranges are reduced. It also does not reduce the Lancelot Lance's range depending on flux level, tried it with ship system on and off.
That aside, it's too strong against other Templar ships since they aren't fully shielded. If you manage to steal a Paladin and outfit it, you'll notice that this much cheaper Templar cruiser is the biggest threat on the battlefield. Fighting Paladins is easier than fighting one of these. It turns around so fast that its artillery beam is lacking a downside and trying to outmaneuver the ship (which you'd expect to work) will be rewarded with death. Too weak: Artillery beam range without ship system is very short. I'd balance this by making it longer range and less damaging. Or making damage dissipate with range.

The classic Templar ships and weapons haven't been nerfed much. Sentenia is still amazing and probably remains the one decent flux/DPS gun to put on non-Templar ships. The bursts still shred fighters, but I've been able to field a mass of fighters against Crusaders and smaller ships fairly successfully. Clarents are still scary but have taken a back seat since there's now several missile choices, so less Clarent spam is in itself a nerf since numbers compound threat.

So far the 8 Teuton wings I've been able to snatch all use Crucifix missiles. This seems appropriately powerful since they rearm in flight and fairly quickly as well. It would be nice to see standard loadouts for the bigger Templar ships to favour more Clarents though unless Crucifix ship weapons become more threatening. By the changelog it looks like Clarent Teutons are still in rotation but I haven't met a single one yet. I'll chalk that one up to RNG for now.

Even with the latest version, Templar ships are much too easy to obtain after battle. You could comfortably cut that down to 1/4 or beyond.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2017, 05:00:34 PM by Schwartz »
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King Alfonzo

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Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8c
« Reply #924 on: August 01, 2017, 07:30:48 PM »

Crucifix missiles have great visuals, but they feel weak. They plink against decently strong shields and armour both. They don't inspire the dread that comes with other signature Templar weapons. Essentially ships favouring these over Clarents are fighting with a handicap. Try building a Paladin around as many Crucifix systems as you can fit and have him fight a few simulator battles. Compare with classic loadouts. For a frontloaded weapon system, it's not bursty enough. I'd recommend either making it more regenerative or adding more flux spike / EMP.

I am inclined to agree about this - Crucifixes are just a bit too weak for their suppression purpose. Not by much mind you, but just a little bit. Maybe if they regenerated just a smidge quicker they'd be a better suppression weapon.

Dark.Revenant

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Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8c
« Reply #925 on: August 03, 2017, 03:54:12 AM »

Some feedback re: Templar power and the new version.

Crucifix: They used to be more powerful but I had to nerf them due to being incredibly overpowered on non-Templar ships.  Like instant-win powerful.  There's probably no real solution to this other than making the flux cost too unappealing for any non-Templar ship, and even then it becomes a binary uncounterable attack that the player can't do anything about other than massing flak/burst PD.  Kind of like how clarents used to be.  The only acceptable change is probably to remove the ammo cap.

Chevalier: I have no idea WTF that range bug might be and I never noticed anything of the sort.  Ranges shouldn't change based on flux level anymore, by the way.  The beam is supposed to be OP, and being good against Templar ships is not exactly a major concern for me.  You're not supposed to outmaneuver one in a duel; you being a team mate.

Salvaging: I can't do anything about this.  Unless I flag Templar ships as outright unboardable across the board, there's basically nothing I can do to make salvaging them harder.  It took a lot of work just to make it so you can't grab them from deep space; at least you have to actually *fight* them.  When it comes to battle salvage, all bets are off; for example, Reinforced Bulkheads makes their salvage chance 100% even if I set their boarding chance to 1%.
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Mr. Nobody

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Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8c
« Reply #926 on: August 03, 2017, 05:20:42 AM »

About the "too OP when on non-Templar" issue, could it be possible to use a modified version of the Onslaught Large-Mounts-Cost-Less Hullmod to make so Templar weapons cost less OP/generate less flux when on Templar ships?
Maybe the next update with the "manufacturer" thing might make it easier to implement but it should still be possible now, albeit with some workarounds to properly identify ships and weapons
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Schwartz

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Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8c
« Reply #927 on: August 03, 2017, 05:54:02 AM »

Too bad about the salvaging. Maybe there'll be more settings to tinker with in future versions.

Nr. Nobody, it's already like this though. Templar ships have a ton of OP to be able to field the expensive guns, and all weapon flux is cut in half. On non-Templar ships you effectively have to pay an OP amount that the ships weren't made to handle, and a high flux cost to boot. The winbutton-ness of Clarents on regular ships was remedied by giving them a decent flux cost. I haven't tried Crucifix on regular ships yet, will have to get back to you on that...

Yeah, I was wrong about the weapon range thing. I don't know why I was still convinced a tick of the reticule is 100 units. It isn't.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 06:15:53 AM by Schwartz »
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Mr. Nobody

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Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8c
« Reply #928 on: August 03, 2017, 07:23:31 AM »

and all weapon flux is cut in half.
I didn't mean "all weapons" but specifically TEMPLAR weapons. As is "templar weapons on templar ships is smooth as butter, any other combination and you have to take a hammer to it to make it fit"
Also with the OP cost reduction for templar weapons on templar ships you can cut some of the OP available to templar ships so they aren't as murderous in the hand of a player that fits them with "conventional" weaponry
Since Templar tech is supposed to be fairly alien (as in "there is nothing like this in normal ships" not in "ayy lmao") compared to everyone else's it makes sense that they are specialized to use their own weapons, other factions (captains) have to do a large amount of hackjobs in order to cram a templar weapon into a normal mount.
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Schwartz

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Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8c
« Reply #929 on: August 03, 2017, 07:56:09 AM »

That's just the thing though - it doesn't matter if it's just Templar weapons or all weapons. The high OP ceiling of Templar ships doesn't translate to more power if you fit cheaper guns on them. You just get more hullmods or better flux stats. And a much higher TTK against other ships. Offensive power is mostly limited by weaponry, so DR balanced it one way. Making Templar weapons specifically cheaper on Templar ships would be doubling down on that, it's not really necessary. I think the trouble of fitting Templar weapons on regular ships is well represented in the many sacrifices you have to make and the fragile combat performance you get as a result.

The only times that formula runs into problems is when you have Templar weapons with 'too reasonable' flux stats like the Sentenia, Pax Cannon (not technically cheap, but range makes it viable) or formerly the Clarents, coupled with ships that have the stats and spare OP to handle them. A lot of Templar guns aren't great for that purpose already, so it's just an issue of us figuring out the cheese builds so he can fix the remaining ones. Like.. you wouldn't do any better putting a Longinus on a Sunder when you can just fit a HIL with 1/1 flux.

tl;dr: Up Sentenia flux cost a bit and you're golden.
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