Fractal Softworks Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

Pages: 1 ... 30 31 [32] 33 34 ... 71

Author Topic: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8f  (Read 626900 times)

Euqocelbbog

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 49
    • View Profile
Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
« Reply #465 on: September 20, 2015, 01:48:34 PM »

Am I the only one who finds this mod a little strange.
Templars in space on a divine mission? lol
Doesn't space mean there is no heaven.

Good job nontheless but this mod is just pure fantasy rather than scifi which kills the immersion.
For me at least.

An impressively bad post. :o
Logged

Dark.Revenant

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 2806
    • View Profile
    • Sc2Mafia
Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
« Reply #466 on: September 20, 2015, 01:52:08 PM »

The Templars' religion is painted in an extremely negative light.  Plus, they're not exactly what I'd call 'rational'.  Not sure what your concern is.
Logged

MShadowy

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 911
    • View Profile
Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
« Reply #467 on: September 20, 2015, 01:54:24 PM »

If what you said was true there shouldn't be any religion left since 1961... Besides, who said they are Christians and not another religion sharing a similar iconography (there are plenty of those already)? And even if they are, what that religion will be like in one thousand years? And what about the Luddic church then?

My initial impression was that he was for some reason of the mind that religion and science cannot co-exist, but on second glance I get the impression that he's being absurdly literal.  He seems to have completely misconstrued the intent of the mod, which does not in any way imply that the Templars, in their fanaticism, are correct.  If I recall correctly this is the second time this has come up, with the first being some nob suggesting that, because the Templars are religious zealots they could not possibly have the technology they do, when realistically the reason they should not have said technology is because it's beyond the reach of human science in the Starsector setting.

Essentially, being so tone deaf that they completely miss the subtext.
Logged

Tartiflette

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 3529
  • MagicLab discord: https://discord.gg/EVQZaD3naU
    • View Profile
Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
« Reply #468 on: September 20, 2015, 02:12:52 PM »

That or I may have inadvertently fed a troll...
Logged
 

Lycutena

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 2
    • View Profile
Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
« Reply #469 on: September 21, 2015, 12:34:55 AM »

My initial impression was that he was for some reason of the mind that religion and science cannot co-exist...
I thought so too for real religion, I discovered it just a cover up for real sciences, at least in my opinion.
Logged

Cycerin

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1665
  • beyond the infinite void
    • View Profile
Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
« Reply #470 on: September 21, 2015, 02:17:12 AM »

As long as the human brain has the capacity for religious experience, religions can exist. As long as we are creatures whose view of the world can be described by Plato's Cave Allegory, there will be a time and a place for philosophy and religion to explain the universe.

Actually this may be a good time to post the short story which we used as inspiration for the Templars.

If you don't want to read it, the theme is something like "religious experience can be induced, and how!"
« Last Edit: September 21, 2015, 03:04:04 AM by Cycerin »
Logged

Tartiflette

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 3529
  • MagicLab discord: https://discord.gg/EVQZaD3naU
    • View Profile
Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
« Reply #471 on: September 22, 2015, 03:06:56 AM »

The least believeable thing in this story is: How come it's not a real thing already?
Logged
 

Thaago

  • Global Moderator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 7173
  • Harpoon Affectionado
    • View Profile
Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
« Reply #472 on: September 22, 2015, 08:15:32 AM »

Responding to the slightly old topic of how to fight Templars...

I've found Paragons with Tachyon Lances extremely effective as Templar shields let some damage through - you can harass them at long range or, if their shields are down, knock them out long enough to catch a breather and vent.

Then again, saying "Paragons" as an answer on how to beat something is kind of cheap - they are the super capital of vanilla...
Logged

Dark.Revenant

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 2806
    • View Profile
    • Sc2Mafia
Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
« Reply #473 on: September 22, 2015, 08:24:49 AM »

Kiting tactics won't work forever....

MwaahahahahahhaH AHAH HA Hah A AH HAH *COUGH, HACK*
Logged

Megas

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 12117
    • View Profile
Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
« Reply #474 on: September 22, 2015, 05:59:20 PM »

As long as the human brain has the capacity for religious experience, religions can exist. As long as we are creatures whose view of the world can be described by Plato's Cave Allegory, there will be a time and a place for philosophy and religion to explain the universe.

Actually this may be a good time to post the short story which we used as inspiration for the Templars.

If you don't want to read it, the theme is something like "religious experience can be induced, and how!"
The afterword appears to be inspired by Karl Marx.  "Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people."

It makes the mistake assuming people made all religion.  God made people, but sinful people who reject God make their own religion of whatever.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2015, 06:01:36 PM by Megas »
Logged

Sabaton

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 523
    • View Profile
Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
« Reply #475 on: September 24, 2015, 12:05:50 PM »

That lecture describes what happens when you mix the god helmet experiment with the Imperium of makind from 40k but in a mundane universe.

Nice inspiration.
Logged

Agalyon

  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 248
    • View Profile
Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
« Reply #476 on: November 01, 2015, 04:54:44 PM »

So I know I have had the most recent post but I'm going to give this a bump because I have a few questions, and I'd like to leave a little review here while we all wait for .7

Firstly, how strong are the Templars supposed to be exactly? I understand "vanilla balanced" sort of takes a turn for the impossible when you have serious mod interaction going: its impossible to foresee what kind of minmaxing players are going to come up with, and the Templars need to handle this. So are they supposed to match a 10/10/10 player, match a whole fleet, match ships one size bigger than them?

I think Martyrs do a great job performing a more typical frigate support roll than Jesuits, which is fine. I'm not sure how well Martyrs are supposed to be able to actually "stand up" to ships bigger than them, but I assume in most cases they are fast enough that they shouldn't have to. Jesuits are odd, I don't really know what to say about them. The front weapon being hidden is a nice touch, which prevents it from being disabled correct? They don't seem to fulfill a typical fleet roll, and are still significantly stronger than most things their size. It sort of goes without saying, but Templar ships are strong enough that they don't really need to fulfill a fleet roll.

Moving on, in my experience the disparity between a Paladin and any other Templar is massive (In most cases, I'd rather deal with an Archbishop.) I personally like to think of Crusaders as a baseline for what I PERSONALLY would consider to be balanced. I think its system is right where it should be right now, as it makes realistically impossible to simply execute the ship with something like a large alpha strike or reaper. They are the least mobile Templar ship behind Archbishops, but they have staying power totally uncharacteristic of a destroyer.

Now onto the Paladin, and my issue with Templar ships over all. The Paladin is iconic. Its fast, heavily armed and armored, and fully capable of removing entire fleets on its own. If I to pick one thing to complain about, It'd be that the Paladin feels so much stronger than any other Templar ship. I'm not really sure if this is actually a problem or not game play wise, as they truly are force to be reckoned with one way or another.
I think the biggest issue lies in the way Templar ships scale exponentially. The lattice shield system belies its own power on smaller vessels, in the same way hard flux venting and the priwen burst is wasted on a ship that doesn't have that awe inspiring staying power that makes Paladins so intimidating. A 10/10/10 Crusader is noticibly better than a 0/0/0 one, but a 10/10/10 Paladin is a whole different ship. Skills not withstanding, Paladins simply make use of Templar systems far and away better than any other Templar ship.

To get to the point, I think if Paladins are supposed to be the basis for balance, smaller Templar ships need a buff, but if something like a Crusader is the basis, then Paladins should be nerfed a little.

On to the weapons. Heavy weapons seem to be a point of contest from what I've read so I'll start with them.
Most don't seem to like the Juger, but I love it. The arcing effect is immensely powerful and intimidating. It doesn't have the same "deadly" feeling as the Fractal Laser or the Arondight Accelerator, but the damage output is staggering none the less, and its particularly effective against the lightly armored high tech ships with powerful shields that tend to usually put a damper on Templar shenanigans, as it can reach around their shields and peel off their meager armor should they maneuver wrongly.

The Fractal Laser is good. Don't know what else to say. Personally I think its the most uniform and easy to use large Templar gun, which leads me to say I think It should perhaps do a pinch less damage and not have ammo restrictions.

The Arondight Accelerator is another odd weapon that seems to accrue mixed feelings. I think its pretty much fine the way it is. Its troublesome to use, but landing a hit is extremely satisfying regardless if it hits shields or armor. This is another one of my favorite weapons.

Smaller stuff Ill do all at once. Pax Cannons are wonderful. Expensive to fit, incredibly effective, zero complaints. Merced Cannons seem to be directly overshadowed by Pax Cannons, but it may be more of a taste thing. The most striking thing to me is the 200 range different between the two. Secace and Galatine Autocannons both seem perfectly acceptable to me. I think the two are one of the things make Templar ships uniquely intimidating, as forcibly raising flux is such a rare effect. Similarly, both flavors of beam are uniquely powerful in the SS universe, but not so much as to be overbearing.

As I already complained about, I think the Sentenia Cannon nerf was unwarranted, or at the very least too much. In its current form, I'd rather simply use a heavy blaster for the DPS or something else for flux ratio. I think its best quality is the range, which is what lends its value to Templar ships, which can only handle the weapon because of the halved weapon flux costs. While something like a Paragon can make use of them well, it takes a massive ship to handle the flux ratio. Anything smaller doesn't need the range and tracking and can get much better use out of something with less OP cost and a better flux ratio. I haven't felt the desire to use one since the nerf, as they are too hard to mount on anything small. All Templar weapons are unique in some way: the most "normal" of the large weapons is fractal laser, which is still hugely powerful and atypical. The beams are the most powerful in the sector, as are all the small mounts. The autocannons all raise flux, an extremely rare quality, and Clarents are exceptionally fast and accurate. The Sentenia Cannon's only two gimmicks are tracking and the ability to fire through allies, both of which are of somewhat dubious use comparatively, especially considering the cost.

Last but not least, Clarents. Ahh yes Clarents. Like most kinds of missiles, the AI does indeed like to dump them upfront for no reason, as so many others have said. But it works better for Clarents than anything else. The amazing tracking and energy damage means in enough volume they could probably take out faster and more lightly defended Frigates, even when used in such an odd manor. It seems like most people are afraid of the regenerating Clarents but personally I think its a good idea. One reason Clarents on both players and Templars tend to falter is the weak use of them on the AI's part, but having a limitless supply of them would sort of mitigate this, making it more of a support than a strike weapon.

In any case, theres my two cents. Also
Spoiler
In regards to the argument about the Templars religion, I love the theme. I think its perfectly in tune with SS and tastefully done.
[close]
« Last Edit: November 01, 2015, 06:52:37 PM by HeartofDiscord »
Logged

Schwartz

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1452
    • View Profile
Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
« Reply #477 on: November 01, 2015, 07:18:38 PM »

I've made a specialized Templar hunting fleet to see how SS+ stands up to them. The goal here is to be able to take them on with minimal losses, so I'm using an Asura, a few Scorpions, two Auroras and two Tartarus all geared with heavy Kinetic weapons (HVD, medium Shard cannons) and some Energy weapons. Lightning Gun works well but is costly and more of a stall instead of a quick finish. Lances, Pulse Lasers and Heavy Blasters all work fine. Lots of Flare Guns and PD Lasers with +range instead of more esoteric solutions. Auroras use MIRVs and Scalaron Pulses. Those loadouts seem to work the best.

My findings so far coincide with yours:

- Templar Frigates are somewhat dangerous but squishy and easily taken out. I don't consider them a threat.
- Crusader is the baseline. It's powerful and fun to fight against, it can take out an unwary Scorpion but usually is taken out without much damage to the cruisers, as long as they don't f**k up.
- Paladin still feels too overpowered and will hurt even a well-prepared fleet like this. I got lucky once or twice but avoid them for the most part, depending on enemy fleet composition.
- Fighters are a bit of a bother because they divert attention, but Clarents are really not an issue for a fleet with this loadout. I do avoid Teuton-heavy fleets (especially if there's flight decks available) because of the sheer number of Clarents they can deliver at once. A phase flagship can sprint ahead and coax the enemy to fire Clarents, after which it can take out one or several of them with well-timed PD coupled with phasing. The remaining Clarents will switch targets and usually hit shields or fizz out before reaching my fleet.

One point of curiosity: Shard weapons have a % chance to deal a certain amount of extra damage to armour and hull. I've got the feeling that owed to this separate calculation, the bonus damage slips right through an active Templar shield. Am I right here?
Logged

Agalyon

  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 248
    • View Profile
Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
« Reply #478 on: November 01, 2015, 07:54:51 PM »

- Templar Frigates are somewhat dangerous but squishy and easily taken out. I don't consider them a threat.
- Crusader is the baseline. It's powerful and fun to fight against, it can take out an unwary Scorpion but usually is taken out without much damage to the cruisers, as long as they don't f**k up.
- Paladin still feels too overpowered and will hurt even a well-prepared fleet like this. I got lucky once or twice but avoid them for the most part, depending on enemy fleet composition.
Glad I'm not the only one feeling that.

One point of curiosity: Shard weapons have a % chance to deal a certain amount of extra damage to armour and hull. I've got the feeling that owed to this separate calculation, the bonus damage slips right through an active Templar shield. Am I right here?
I don't think it does go through the shield, but it might. I believe the way things like that are handled its just a separate "hit," not applying the damage directly, but I'm not sure.
Logged

Dark.Revenant

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 2806
    • View Profile
    • Sc2Mafia
Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
« Reply #479 on: November 01, 2015, 08:05:53 PM »

Thanks for the feedback, guys.  I've made a few changes:

- Joyeuse Fractal Laser damage reduced to 800 from 900 per shot; ammo restriction lifted
- Sentenia Cannon flux cost reduced to 125 from 140 per shot
- Clarent MRM (Single) OP reduced to 3 from 4
- Clarent MRM OP reduced to 8 from 10
- Clarent MRM Tube OP increased to 20 from 18
- Clarent MRM Tube now regenerates 1 ammo every 67 seconds
- Lattice Shield now scales damage reduction, efficiency, and critical level based on ship size

The destroyer is not changed, frigates are generally buffed (0.8 -> 0.6 efficiency, 90% -> 95% damage reduction (full), 50% -> 60% damage reduction (critical), 75% -> 85% critical level), and the cruiser is definitely nerfed (1.0 efficiency, 80% damage reduction (full), 40% damage reduction (critical), 75% -> 70% critical level).
« Last Edit: November 01, 2015, 08:14:47 PM by Dark.Revenant »
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 30 31 [32] 33 34 ... 71