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Author Topic: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8f  (Read 359308 times)
DrakonST
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« Reply #960 on: February 22, 2018, 01:54:31 PM »

Do you call it horror? And what you tell about it? Just small buffed Hegemony fleet. I see more than 15 battleships on one Hegemony fleet. Its madness.
Or it?

Templars were never VERY terrible opponent. On the contrary, earlier, in 0.7 they were very weak. The player could kill with 50% of their fleet on one destroyer. ONE. DESTROYER. Destroyer just like Hammerhead, Enforcer, Legionary/Centurion(II).

And then player could kill ANY fleet on the majority of battleships or really good cruiser(Modded Dominator from IBB). They could be exterminated using only one battleship of type Conquest, Onslaught, Victory, Maestrom and Paragon.

Now, in 0.8 they became stronger. And if now the player receives very powerful ship with HP regen it ALL BALANCE pulls down.

This HP regen never helps AI with fights but makes the player too strong. TOO STRONG.

For Templars not need a HP regen, for hes need a like 25% buff on hull and armor or better matrix efficiency on cruser/battleship ship sizes.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2018, 02:00:54 PM by DrakonST » Logged

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Snrasha
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« Reply #961 on: February 22, 2018, 02:19:51 PM »

Well, i found Templar ship very weak for my every campaign where they are just too easy to destroy when you begin to have some power.
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Gladiator Society
Add battle options on Com Relay/ Framework for modders for add their own bounty.

Artefact
Two weird faction.

Sanguinary Anarchistic Defectors A fan-mod of Shadowyard.
Megas
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« Reply #962 on: February 22, 2018, 02:31:01 PM »

In earlier versions, I considered Templars power creep (not unlike Neutrino before Deathfly took over maintenance).  Once my ships looted some of their hardware (whether ships or weapons), my ships became even more overpowered than normally possible, especially energy reliant ships, and the game gets easier overall.  High-tech ships became much stronger.  Pre-0.8 Astral and Conquest became a nightmare with dual Rolands.  Normally worthless carriers like Condors were Smiter wing cheese platforms.  Skilled pre-0.8 Paragon flagship with the best weapons from Templars sliced through everything, including enemy Templars.

It is like Slash'EM vs. Nethack.  Slash'EM being harder than Nethack early in the game due to stronger enemies, but if player survives and gets superior loot (like firearms) not present in Nethack, the late game becomes a bigger cakewalk (although tempered by careless one-hit gotcha kills).

As long as Templar tech can be looted, Templars steadily becoming mostly balanced yet different in recent versions is good to minimize power creep.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2018, 02:37:31 PM by Megas » Logged
DrakonST
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« Reply #963 on: February 22, 2018, 03:22:08 PM »

I haven't found sense to use their weapon on classic ships. Except one. A BADASS TEMPLAR SHOTGUN. This - REAL WEAPON.
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« Reply #964 on: February 22, 2018, 04:01:07 PM »

I have abused Sentennia on anything that can mount it, provided I do not include more mods that also add long-ranged energy weapons.  800 range and homing usually beats standard weapons.  The only time I do not use it is when the windup hurts too much, such as Hyperion attempting to shoot ships with Omni shields before they are raised.

@ DrakonST:  Which is the shotgun?  Pax or the Joyese?  Pax is... nothing that special.  Joyese is fun.  Paragon feels like Onslaught with that bad boy, although Juger tends to be a bit more practical on it.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2018, 04:03:33 PM by Megas » Logged
Drokkath
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« Reply #965 on: February 22, 2018, 08:53:31 PM »

I gotta say I still haven't tried out Templar weapons. I always toss captured Templar ships and their weapons as trophies in my "abandoned" space station vault. Cheesy That's mainly because I rely on my own unique superior versions of the default weaponry when I use my proverbial hammer on them.

I like keeping Templars around as a boss faction, something to steamroll over royally a bit later in the game. I always get satisfaction out of blowing them to shreds and glass puddle.
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« Reply #966 on: February 22, 2018, 09:21:04 PM »

I have abused Sentennia on anything that can mount it, provided I do not include more mods that also add long-ranged energy weapons.  800 range and homing usually beats standard weapons.  The only time I do not use it is when the windup hurts too much, such as Hyperion attempting to shoot ships with Omni shields before they are raised.

@ DrakonST:  Which is the shotgun?  Pax or the Joyese?  Pax is... nothing that special.  Joyese is fun.  Paragon feels like Onslaught with that bad boy, although Juger tends to be a bit more practical on it.

I found the pax very good for the kite.


Templar need to be strong for me, and they are currently a tiny weak when you are  on late game and know how beat them, so do not nerf them. I will say the same thing than Drokkath.
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Gladiator Society
Add battle options on Com Relay/ Framework for modders for add their own bounty.

Artefact
Two weird faction.

Sanguinary Anarchistic Defectors A fan-mod of Shadowyard.
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« Reply #967 on: February 23, 2018, 05:37:04 AM »

Templars being so-called boss faction while you can obtain their tech is like adding a (close but not-quite) god mod.  The difficulty is harder early, then much easier by endgame.  I do not add Templars or similar boss faction mods unless I want to feel like emperor Palpatine drunk on power after I get their stuff.

If Templars are meant to be an unholy terror, then their ships and weapons need to be unobtainable, much like Remnant hulls.  Otherwise, they are simply pinatas once the player can defeat them.
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« Reply #968 on: February 23, 2018, 06:03:59 AM »

Maybe with the new manufacturer field stuff Alex is adding in the game you could have special buffs/nerfs depending on mismatches (example: templar weapons consume 10 times more flux when mounted on a non templar ship or stuff like that)
So you can have horrendously powerful templar stuff without making it too OP when in player's hands since the whole thing would be a "we took this thing we barely know how it works, welded it to the turret and prayed for the best, don't come looking for me if half of the ships (and it's occupants) just melts when you fire it"
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« Reply #969 on: February 23, 2018, 06:11:28 AM »

What was the Asgard (D)'s loadout?

Templars ought to have the hull regen they do. A Domain ship with 0.1 hull can still stay alive indefinitely if it keeps its shield up (although retreating is usually the smarter option); a Templar ship in the same state and without regen is guaranteed to die if anything hits its hull, even if its shield is at full strength.
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Megas
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« Reply #970 on: February 23, 2018, 07:12:52 AM »

Templars should already have buffs (via builtin hullmods) that make their weapons easier to use for their hulls.  I forgot exactly what they do, but I think one of them was reducing flux use of their weapons by half or something.

The thing is that some of the Templar weapons are (or were) so much better than standard weapons that it is often worth it to mount a few on non-Templar ships, despite the high cost.

Templars' shields feel a bit like always-on Damper Field.
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DrakonST
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« Reply #971 on: February 23, 2018, 07:20:32 AM »

Here "Asgard" before I destroyed him.
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Drokkath
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« Reply #972 on: February 23, 2018, 08:28:39 PM »

Templars ought to have the hull regen they do.

I agree. Never thought I'd defend keeping a faction difficult to deal with but, there ya go. I can see the point in what Megas was talking about though and personally I am drunk on power almost all the time in SS so I'm not even sure what sober is like to me anymore. Cheesy

To me Templars and the way game itself works and feels like, touches places in my mind that connect to my memories about playing Homeworld, Homeworld: Cataclysm and Homeworld 2. For some very odd reason I found dealing with opponents like the Kadeshi from the first game, The Beast menace from its expansion, Progenitors from the second game and especially pretty much every ancient/unique ship in the franchise the most interesting.

To stay on topic and to what I was getting at is that the Templars and the core game's redacteds feel a lot like what I've experienced in the Homeworld games. As long as such a powerful foe isn't too off the rails and the player can still (with some extra effort) take them down. Part of being a deep space explorer is to know that the sense of balance for the Universe ranges from extremes of chaos to extremes of order and thus the difference between technology, civilizations and all life in general can be astronomically different. Not expecting the latter sentence to make much sense since the possibilities are seemingly endless in the vast depths of cosmos.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2018, 08:31:50 PM by Drokkath » Logged

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DrakonST
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« Reply #973 on: February 24, 2018, 06:35:57 AM »

ALSO, Templars for me just interesting opponent. And here the REAL opponent at me here:
Maybe it will seem to you on the present terrible?
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« Reply #974 on: February 24, 2018, 07:03:19 AM »

You could beat that with two or three astral carriers however.

So long as your CR holds up anyway.  Grin
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