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Author Topic: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8f  (Read 475806 times)

Cycerin

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Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.1
« Reply #90 on: September 02, 2014, 06:30:17 AM »

It also means losing armor can be devastating for Templars because the "chip damage" through your shields will start going straight to hull, even at 0% flux.
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Sabaton

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Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.1
« Reply #91 on: September 02, 2014, 11:46:50 AM »

You guys weren't joking when you said their best defense is their overwhelming offense, you can't drag things out with these boys.
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Farlarzia

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Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.1
« Reply #92 on: September 06, 2014, 04:10:29 PM »

I think I'm in love the the Juger Heavy Cannon. Probably my favourite out of the 4 large weapons, its a big flux intensive for low damage compared to the other 2, but for its decreased OP cost, and its ability to perform as a very powerful AOE pd, shooting powerful lightning strikes to everything around it, makes it excellent against missile swarms, which it eats with ease, and has a similar effect on fighters. All this while also being able to deliver a very powerful direct hit to a specific target, while also getting a few bolts of on them as well.

Overall I'm really enjoying this mod, I can see a whole lot of effort went into it, and it really shows.

A couple of small things I noticed however:
The blue text to show lattice absorption is really hard to see while the lattice itself is up.
Because the flux is constantly rising and dropping, it means CR is constantly degrading on the frigates, even while not doing anything. Not sure if this is intended.
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Dark.Revenant

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Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.1
« Reply #93 on: September 06, 2014, 04:54:59 PM »

A couple of small things I noticed however:
The blue text to show lattice absorption is really hard to see while the lattice itself is up.
Because the flux is constantly rising and dropping, it means CR is constantly degrading on the frigates, even while not doing anything. Not sure if this is intended.

Can't do anything about the blue text.  It will get better when shaders stop drawing over the UI in the next update, however.

Yes, I realized that happened to the frigates, so I gave them an extra long timer.
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Farlarzia

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Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.1
« Reply #94 on: September 07, 2014, 04:52:16 AM »

Ah, I hadn't noticed the extended timer, good stuff.

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Wyvern

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Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.1
« Reply #95 on: September 07, 2014, 11:01:06 PM »

Some feedback on Templar weapon balance, from the perspective of someone playing Starsector+ with (most) of the factions turned on: Templar weapon balance is weird.

The Merced Cannon is pretty much the king of small energy weapons - while it seems to have high flux costs at first glance, it's actually far more flux-efficient than any normal projectile-based energy weapon.  If you don't need point defense or overwhelming burst damage (i.e. antimatter blasters), use Merced Cannons, because they're just better.

The Rhon Laser, by contrast is... not really competitive.  Yeah, okay, it's an HIL in a small slot (with reduced range and ordnance point cost)... but it costs 450 flux/s to fire, versus the HIL's 250, and still doesn't do hard flux - as a result, I've yet to find any good use for these.  The Merced Cannon is just better.

Suggestion: Increase Merced Cannon flux costs to ~150% of DPS, in line with vanilla projectile energy weapons.  Reduce Rhon Laser flux costs to ~100% of weapon DPS, in line with vanilla beam weaponry.  Slightly increases Rhon Laser ordnance point costs - 14 or 15 is probably reasonable.  Or, alternatively, find a way to make the Rhon Laser deal hard flux versus shields.

Medium Energy Weapons: By the vagaries of chance, I've yet to acquire either a Longinus or Sentenia to play with, but it looks like these repeat the same oddities as the Merced and Rhon, just writ slightly larger.  And it's not clear, but it looks like the Heavy Blaster might be competitive with either of them.

Large Energy Weapons: None of these perform well as primary guns - which is kindof fair, given that the Templar ships don't use them that way.  However, the combination of niche utility and extreme ordnance point costs render these weapons generally less effective than vanilla equivalents - the Plasma Cannon outperforms both the Joyeuse and the Juger at all roles save annihilation of large numbers of fighters / missiles.  (Though the Joyeuse would be significantly more effective outside of Starsector+ - the more aggressive venting AI means it's all but impossible to use it at range; by the time it's done reloading, your target has vented and has their shields back up.  Which means you have to be close enough for the rest of your weapons to support it, at which point the plasma cannon does similar damage for significantly fewer ordnance points.)

Suggestion: Increase Juger damage-on-main-hit by about 25%.  Reduce Joyeuse ordnance point cost by five, or increase rate of fire (possibly paired with slightly reduced damage to keep the DPS from increasing by too much).

Ballistic Weaponry: These are all actually quite good - though their ammunition is a bit limited, especially for the Arondight.  They do need to be paired up with something else in order to punch through armor, but if you've got ballistic mounts, that's quite doable; a few heavy maulers and you're pretty well set.  ...And yet I still use needlers over the Templar weapons, because I tend to fight while heavily outnumbered and want the extra ammo.  Still, these are usable.

Missiles: The templar missiles are... impressive, but generally impractical, due to a combination of extreme ordnance point costs and low ammunition.  I'm really not sure what to suggest, here, however; on paper, the ordnance point costs seem reasonable in comparison to similar vanilla weaponry...  Maybe I just don't like missiles.
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Dark.Revenant

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Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.1
« Reply #96 on: September 08, 2014, 01:31:53 AM »

A Plasma Cannon shoots three bolts at 700 range for 750 damage each, totaling a burst of 2250 damage, with 652.5 DPS and 900 flux/second, and uses up 30 OP.
A Joyeuse Fractal Laser shoots six bolts, which can randomly split into more bolts (at most ranges at least eight will hit the target) at 1200 range for 700 damage each, totaling a burst of at least 4200 damage, with 600 DPS and 857.1 flux/second, and uses up 40 OP.

You're buying vastly superior range and burst damage, plus the ability to power through usual obstructions like fighters, missiles, and asteroids, and also get through shields without wasting all the damage on an overload (since only one or two bolts will hit while the others pass through to the hull), for very slightly lower DPS and an extra 10 OP.  I don't see a reason to buff it.


A Merced Cannon shoots 60-damage bolts at 550 range, with 300 DPS and 375 flux/second, and uses up 10 OP.
An IR Pulse Laser shoots 35-damage bolts at 500 range, with 105 DPS and 150 flux/second, and uses up 6 OP.
A Pulse Laser shoots 75-damage bolts at 600 range, with 225 DPS and 330 flux/second, and uses up 10 OP.

You have a point with how much of a monster this weapon can be.  I don't think increasing the flux cost is the answer; rather, I'll be decreasing its range to 500 and lowering its damage to 50 per bolt, bringing it to 250 DPS.  Then, compared to a Pulse Laser, it has slightly better damage at the cost of worse range, armor penetration, and flux efficiency.


A Rhon Laser operates at a range of 500 to deal 300 DPS, costing 450 flux/second, and using up 12 OP.
A Tactical Laser operates at a range of 600 to deal 75 DPS, costing 75 flux/second, and using up 5 OP.
A Phase Beam operates at a range of 700 to deal 175 DPS (150 DPS in vanilla) and 20 EPS, costing 160 flux/second, and using up 12 OP.
A High Intensity Laser operates at a range of 1250 to deal 300 DPS (250 DPS in vanilla), costing 250 flux/second, and using up 20 OP.

Compared to vanilla beams, the Rhon Laser is in an entirely different world.  It has no charge up/down time either, making it more efficient than either of those other beams in any situation that doesn't require continuous fire.  Compared to a Phase Beam, its only disadvantages are a shorter range and a large efficiency penalty; this is a small price for being a slot smaller and nearly twice as powerful.  The Rhon Laser isn't designed to be a primary assault weapon; it's an unstoppable point defense beam.  I guarantee no fighter will last against these things.  Slap an IPDAI on the ship and you have the best small-slot point defense weapon in the game.
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Wyvern

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Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.1
« Reply #97 on: September 08, 2014, 10:00:03 AM »

A Plasma Cannon shoots three bolts at 700 range for 750 damage each, totaling a burst of 2250 damage, with 652.5 DPS and 900 flux/second, and uses up 30 OP.
A Joyeuse Fractal Laser shoots six bolts, which can randomly split into more bolts (at most ranges at least eight will hit the target) at 1200 range for 700 damage each, totaling a burst of at least 4200 damage, with 600 DPS and 857.1 flux/second, and uses up 40 OP.

You're buying vastly superior range and burst damage, plus the ability to power through usual obstructions like fighters, missiles, and asteroids, and also get through shields without wasting all the damage on an overload (since only one or two bolts will hit while the others pass through to the hull), for very slightly lower DPS and an extra 10 OP.  I don't see a reason to buff it.
The problem - and the reason I find the Plasma Cannon to be the superior weapon - is that, despite that three-shot-salvo, the plasma cannon isn't really a burst damage weapon; it reloads fairly quickly between salvos and can, on its own, keep up pressure on a shielded target.  The Joyeuse, by contrast, cannot - which pretty much entirely negates its range advantage against any serious (cruiser or larger) targets, since you have to have secondary weaponry also in-range or your target will just take the hit and then vent, over and over again.  This is explicitly an issue with its use in Starsector+, however; against vanilla AI targets that don't vent as aggressively, the Joyeuse is probably usable.  (I say probably, because I haven't actually tested.)  Also, FYI, the plasma cannon is 32 OP, not 30.

On the topic of the Rhon Laser: I'm actually much happier with the BRDY Argus Laser for point defense - it's not going to waste huge chunks of flux on shielded targets (due to only firing at larger targets when it's at full ammo), and it's very nearly as strong against fighters and missiles.  That said, I have now found a good niche for the Rhon and the Longinus: they are excellent weapons for hunting down Templar ships.  I'll still swap them back out before any serious battle against factions with normal shields, but that's okay.
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Dark.Revenant

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Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.1
« Reply #98 on: September 08, 2014, 12:31:34 PM »

You're not supposed to be able to just kite back and kill anything with a single weapon, 1v1.  Have an ally fight with you or something.

And the Rhon "wasting huge chunks of flux on shielded targets" is the point of the weapon; it can drill through shields (and maul fighters) and ride up the flux of its targets very quickly.  If a beam is firing on a ship that has enough dissipation to ignore it, then just turn the weapon group off.
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Nanao-kun

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Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.1
« Reply #99 on: September 08, 2014, 03:23:05 PM »

I use the Rhon Laser as PD too, on the Imaginos-class! Take that, you damn missile swarms!
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Farlarzia

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Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.1
« Reply #100 on: September 08, 2014, 04:01:55 PM »

I can too confirm, they make absolute powerhouses of a PD system, but its generally allocating the OP to them, its a big commitment, the hullmod, the increased OP for less general DPS and range, with a little more flux IIRC. I generally wouldn't use it unless it was for a designated PD focused ship, as they already have pretty intensive free PD.

I feel that although it is very good, it is underwhelmed because of this. I'm not sure what exactly to suggest, but I do feel they are a bit uncompetitive compared to other options.

Regarding the longinus, I feel much the same about it, but however I feel it is even less so, as the Sentenia outshines it again IMO, and due to it being a medium mount, is unable to be used as PD, making me very reluctant to consider it as a serious armament.

Edit: I also have some mixed feeling about the missile weapons, as despite their amazing stats, due to there classification of missile, and the low ammo count they posses, they often seem to do very little in the AI hands, often wasted at the start of the fight without being utilised properly. However, they seem to be rather surprisingly good at taking down templar ships themselves, as they generally don't get shot down, and there are no "hard" shields to tank it, breaching your amour often leading to a quick demise.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2014, 04:06:42 PM by Farlarzia »
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Dark.Revenant

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Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.1
« Reply #101 on: September 08, 2014, 04:38:08 PM »

The Rhon isn't just a PD weapon; it's also just generally good at killing small ships, especially frigates.

The Longinus is the most powerful beam weapon in the game, coming out to 600 sustained DPS.  As soon as a ship's shield is down, it can immediately start to melt straight through its armor and deal a tremendous amount of damage.  You can't dodge it, you can't block it (unless you have really good dissipation), and it's hard to even outrange it.  The Longinus can absolutely wreck phase ships; they immediately take damage as they unphase and have no way of avoiding being badly hurt each time they do.  The Longinus is also basically a one-stop solution to taking out frigates; taking a Longinus for more than a few seconds is a death sentence for any frigate-sized ship.

Clarents are useful because they cannot miss and are guaranteed to hurt the target, no matter what their shield level is.  Tanking it on the shields raises flux a lot, tanking it on armor destroys that armor.
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Wyvern

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Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.1
« Reply #102 on: September 08, 2014, 05:47:45 PM »

You're not supposed to be able to just kite back and kill anything with a single weapon, 1v1.  Have an ally fight with you or something.
So apparently I'm "doing it wrong" by my normal tactics of flying a solo Apogee?  Hm.  Nope, works for me.  (Oh, and if you think you can get away with "just kiting back and killing anything", please, be my guest and try it yourself; it's not that simple.)  But thanks, this attitude means I can just ignore the Templar large energy weapons unless I'm outfitting a Paragon or something.

And the Rhon "wasting huge chunks of flux on shielded targets" is the point of the weapon; it can drill through shields (and maul fighters) and ride up the flux of its targets very quickly.  If a beam is firing on a ship that has enough dissipation to ignore it, then just turn the weapon group off.
Given the choice between a weapon that wrecks fighters but requires aggressive micromanaging of weapon groups (rhon laser), and one that wrecks fighters and can just be left on autofire (argus laser), or one that still wrecks fighters and still doesn't require aggressive micromanaging of weapon groups and also works well against larger ships' shields (merced cannon), I'm going to take one of the latter two.  So... it's not really that the rhon is bad, necessarily; it's that for all but the most niche of roles, there exist better options.
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Cycerin

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Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.1
« Reply #103 on: September 08, 2014, 06:48:52 PM »

I hardly understand why you lump the Rhon in with the Argus of all weapons, the Argus is a missile sweeper PD that can kill unshielded fighters, while the Rhon is a multipurpose support weapon that can double as PD. The Argus will need help to kill a shielded fighter, while the Rhon can melt through basically anything that isnt backed up by a deep flux pool.

A more relevant comparison would be rhon vs. tac laser or rhon vs. sunjet PDE, since they're all weapons that melt fighters but cant PD without a hullmod. If you compare out of the specific situation of outfitting your own flagship it gets a lil different.

As for the Joyeuse, it's got long range which is useful because it brings its vast burst damage to bear on squishy targets that try to stay out of range. However, if you look at the weapon objectively, its biggest quality is the fact that it simply deals a massive amount of burst damage. Which makes it best when backed up by weapons that deal sustained DPS, such as on the Paladin in Smite, rather than on a glass cannon type outfit that focuses most of the power on that lone weapon.. especially considering you might also be looking at a situation where you lack the Templar -50% weapon flux.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2014, 06:59:35 PM by Cycerin »
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Wyvern

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Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.1
« Reply #104 on: September 13, 2014, 09:27:39 AM »

Some further commentary, now that I've acquired a decent supply of medium templar weapons:

The Longinus is usable - you kinda have to treat it like a plasma cannon and only have it running when you need it, and it's still something of a niche weapon - but that niche is "make fighters go away", which is a rather useful one.

The Sentenia is - much to my surprise - rather less useful; 95% of the time, a heavy blaster will be better.  My flagship is currently using one of these anyway - because, in this case, I don't need the heavy blaster's superior burst / anti-armor damage (I have a plasma cannon for that), and because the way the medium weapon arcs are set up on an Apogee, it's actually really useful to have that homing ability for hitting targets in front of you.  Nothing else I've outfitted has been able to make good use of this weapon, though.

I still find the Rhon to be something of an impractical joke, though.  It's simply too expensive for what it does - either in terms of flux, or in terms of ordnance points.  If you mount a bunch and add advanced optics and point defense AI and enough vents to support the whole mess... congratulations, you have no ordnance points left for anything else.  You can turn, say, an Odyssey into a bulwark that's essentially immune to fighters (as long as you manage your flux carefully - even a capital ship can't support these things without straining)... and completely incapable of dealing with anything else.  Which is not actually useful compared to an Odyssey that mounts a more sane point defense configuration and actually has ordnance points to spare for offensive weaponry.
The only place I've found these to be at all useful is in specific anti-templar variants, due to the templar shields taking hard flux from beams.

I've also tested some heavier ships equipped with Templar large energy weapons; as expected, once you have two Joyeuse Fractal Lasers, they suddenly turn from "ha, ha, vent flux, you do nothing" into a viable heavy weapon that can take down capital ships in relatively short order.  At least as long as you put them on alternating fire.
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