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Author Topic: [0.8a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8  (Read 212122 times)
Schwartz
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« Reply #840 on: April 02, 2017, 02:50:05 PM »

Sure it's a good weapon, but it's not cheap to fit or to fire. Longinus on non-Templar ships is not nearly as useful as the Sentenia (homing that passes through friendlies anyone?). It's always going to be a beam. Those Templar beams only really shine when you get the flux perk along with them. Also there's the High Intensity Laser for Sunders, which is quite good now and can be paired up with 2x Gravs to melt through almost anything.

Anyway, my extensive playthrough ended with a bunch of Templar weapons on non-Templar ships, and the only really overpowered ones were the pre-nerf Clarents. Rest is, all things considered, a slight upgrade with a hefty cost.

Seems odd that the HIL feels more flux hungry to you than the Longinus. Will have to test...
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majorfreak
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« Reply #841 on: April 02, 2017, 02:57:23 PM »

I had an easier time killing a Dominator in my Sunder U (no officer skills) using a Heavy Blaster in place of the Longinus Heavy Laser.  And we're talking about a ship that is vulnerable to beams.
well, i can't very well defeat a dom using a single heavy blaster. just sitting ingame simulator with no enemies i can push my 1 longinus to actually increase flux a bit faster than a single heavy blaster, when shields are on. i'm guessing longinus has an effective flux of about between 600-800/sec?


Sure it's a good weapon, but it's not cheap to fit or to fire. Longinus on non-Templar ships is not nearly as useful as the Sentenia (homing that passes through friendlies anyone?). It's always going to be a beam. Those Templar beams only really shine when you get the flux perk along with them. Also there's the High Intensity Laser for Sunders, which is quite good now and can be paired up with 2x Gravs to melt through almost anything.
Anyway, my extensive playthrough ended with a bunch of Templar weapons on non-Templar ships, and the only really overpowered ones were the pre-nerf Clarents. Rest is, all things considered, a slight upgrade with a hefty cost.
Seems odd that the HIL feels more flux hungry to you than the Longinus. Will have to test...
High Int plus Gravs. hmmm...you know, i wonder why i never tried those vanilla weapons in combo? n00b me.
But, sorry for digressing. My point is that there needs to be a discussion about large/medium threshold. the longinus is seriously overpowered as a medium (regardless of how shockingly low it's ingame flux/sec is)

====
grrrr...now i can't replicate the flux problem vs the high intensity beam and longinus *feels like retard*
*keeps trying to replicate*
okay, i may be misunderstanding the flux issue when it's at zero. i've got my sunder at 990 dissipation but the longinus isn't increasing it. slowly lowering the dissipation by increments to see where it starts to fill the flux capacitors.
at 950 dissipation the longinus will very slowly start filling the capacitor. hmmmm...i wonder if it's a peculiarity of true beam weapons


I did test your grav+HI; i prefer my tachyon+heavy shockbeams (same range; way better performance)
« Last Edit: April 02, 2017, 03:20:16 PM by majorfreak » Logged
Dark.Revenant
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« Reply #842 on: April 02, 2017, 03:15:08 PM »

Longinus is 1000 flux/sec.  A fully-outfitted Sunder with shields off raises flux by about 250/sec (assuming power grid 10), which will take a while to fill up the flux bar.

Anyway, my test was with graviton beams in the medium slots, salamanders, and vulcans.
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majorfreak
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« Reply #843 on: April 02, 2017, 03:17:38 PM »

read my last. edited. am i misunderstanding how flux works?

Regardless, trying the heavy blaster is sort of misleading. the lesser range (even with AO and the other extended range hullmod, and lvl5 gunnery) is brutal against the dominator for flux management. The grav+long combo is a good range to kite the dom while being nimble enough to sidestep the inevitable bull charges.

I dunno. i think i've listed a number of major advantages true beams have. not least is that weird flux thing (that i seem to have overstated when it's only 50 flux/sec off listed stats)
  • you've got the ability to instantly hit the target (and with 'shift' key it becomes very easy to track a target if it's a hardpoint on a sunder)
  • you can keep constant pressure on a target (and whittle away at it when the shields go down for any brief period like the AI is wont to do)
  • advanced optics (combined with gunnery implants and integrated targeting unit) has no downside...whereas projectiles of any type have travel time to compensate
  • with a medium fast tracking turret the long is almost an automatic hit
  • there's literally NO other energy type damage true beam in the game of medium/large that even comes close to the long (heavy shockbeam for example)
  • heck, you can even wave it back and forth and wipe away missiles inbound...something i didn't realize until now
« Last Edit: April 02, 2017, 04:01:37 PM by majorfreak » Logged
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« Reply #844 on: April 02, 2017, 03:49:24 PM »

Isn't the point of the Templars to be as OP as possible while being slightly killable?
Even then, this discussion does raise the valid question of large/medium slot distinction.

Everything Templar is overkill. NUFF SAID.
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« Reply #845 on: April 02, 2017, 04:04:32 PM »

Isn't the point of the Templars to be as OP as possible while being slightly killable?
Even then, this discussion does raise the valid question of large/medium slot distinction.

Everything Templar is overkill. NUFF SAID.
it's either a distinction that needs to be talked about and refined. OR we simply say "NUFF SAID" and ignore the immersion breaking situation with the long.
*shrug* i think i'll go finally download that editor and see how the Templar fair when i change the long...i wonder if i should make it a large (meaning i probably have to tweak the slots on some ships) or change it to explosive (the simpler option; and probably my only option? might not be possible even)
« Last Edit: April 02, 2017, 04:15:42 PM by majorfreak » Logged
Midnight Kitsune
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« Reply #846 on: April 02, 2017, 04:10:18 PM »

read my last. edited. am i misunderstanding how flux works?

Regardless, trying the heavy blaster is sort of misleading. the lesser range (even with AO and the other extended range hullmod, and lvl5 gunnery) is brutal against the dominator for flux management. The grav+long combo is a good range to kite the dom while being nimble enough to sidestep the inevitable bull charges.

I dunno. i think i've listed a number of major advantages true beams have. not least is that weird flux thing (that i seem to have overstated when it's only 50 flux/sec off listed stats)
  • you've got the ability to instantly hit the target (and with 'shift' key it becomes very easy to track a target if it's a hardpoint on a sunder)
  • you can keep constant pressure on a target (and whittle away at it when the shields go down for any brief period like the AI is wont to do)
  • advanced optics (combined with gunnery implants and integrated targeting unit) has no downside...whereas projectiles of any type have travel time to compensate
  • with a medium fast tracking turret the long is almost an automatic hit
  • there's literally NO other energy type damage true beam in the game of medium/large that even comes close to the long (heavy shockbeam for example)
  • heck, you can even wave it back and forth and wipe away missiles inbound...something i didn't realize until now
Maybe, just MAYBE, if you weren't using the OP as hell skills, the gun would not seem so OP
Modders balance around level ZERO after all. I'd like to see you use and support the laser in missions
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« Reply #847 on: April 02, 2017, 04:19:17 PM »

possibly. yet, i believe you simply cannot throw out sheet anchors to port and starboard on a whim to derail my comparisons (which would stand up to lesser skills since i tested all equally at the same skill/hullmod level)
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Midnight Kitsune
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« Reply #848 on: April 02, 2017, 04:39:27 PM »

How the hell will changing the Longinus Heavy Laser to HE nerf it? Hell, that would just make it even MORE OP. You DO realize that right? Energy damage is the second weakest damage type, next to frag due to damage bonuses.
To be honest, the HIL should not exist is SS beams are S*** and the HIL especially is TurboS***™ because no player agency
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Stop trying to balance the game around a few minmaxers...
Programming is like sex:
One mistake and you have to support it for the rest of your life.

Tired of having your game crash because of out of date mods? Then click here!
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Schwartz
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« Reply #849 on: April 02, 2017, 04:47:30 PM »

So what are beams now? Good or sh*t? Because to me that just translates to a situational weapon. Sunder with HIL & 2 Gravs is excellent in fleet engagements. The same ship in a 1v1 against an enemy with strong shields and kinetics is going to be a paper tiger. Hence why I said - as good as the Longinus is, it's still a beam. And it costs a ton of flux. Crunching the numbers does not account for flux that accrues in combat, and you're unlikely to always keep enemies at a cozy distance. Up close you're using a weapon that can't deal hard flux vs. shields while you yourself are eating plenty of it.

Energy damage is pretty good all-around. Why do you think the Mjolnir is so popular as the #1 ballistic weapon?

Also yeah, Templar weapons are reserved for high skill players. Others gimp their loadouts trying to fit them. This is kind of a big deal still, because by endgame you yourself, your fleets and your loadouts are overpowered. Templar guns add to it, but they don't make that much of a dent anymore at that level.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2017, 04:50:30 PM by Schwartz » Logged
Midnight Kitsune
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« Reply #850 on: April 02, 2017, 05:01:12 PM »

So what are beams now? Good or sh*t? Because to me that just translates to a situational weapon. Sunder with HIL & 2 Gravs is excellent in fleet engagements. The same ship in a 1v1 against an enemy with strong shields and kinetics is going to be a paper tiger. Hence why I said - as good as the Longinus is, it's still a beam. And it costs a ton of flux. Crunching the numbers does not account for flux that accrues in combat, and you're unlikely to always keep enemies at a cozy distance. Up close you're using a weapon that can't deal hard flux vs. shields while you yourself are eating plenty of it.
Basically SS beams, especially constant ones, in general are s*** because there is no player agency. They are a binary weapon; either you are hitting the enemy or you are not. They are also an "always on autofire" weapon. At least the Longinus uses more flux than vanilla beams so you can't just leave it on auto. Another reason why they suck is there is VERY little API support. So modders can't really do much with them and make them Not S***.

Energy damage is pretty good all-around. Why do you think the Mjolnir is so popular as the #1 ballistic weapon?
Only because it was buffed when regenerating ammo was introduced (was Plasma Cannon tier flux efficiency) but was never nerfed when infinite ammo was added.Also, that gun is getting nerfed in .8 and is already nerfed in SS+

possibly. yet, i believe you simply cannot throw out sheet anchors to port and starboard on a whim to derail my comparisons (which would stand up to lesser skills since i tested all equally at the same skill/hullmod level)
Easy: You are testing in a skill zero environment against a SINGLE ship with poor shields with skills yourself.
Your testing methods are bad and you should feel bad
« Last Edit: April 02, 2017, 05:09:07 PM by Midnight Kitsune » Logged

Stop trying to balance the game around a few minmaxers...
Programming is like sex:
One mistake and you have to support it for the rest of your life.

Tired of having your game crash because of out of date mods? Then click here!
Get Version Checker today! Now with 90% less hassle! Simply toss it into your mod folder, activate the mod like a normal one and BINGO you will now be informed of any and all updates when you start SS campaign up!
majorfreak
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« Reply #851 on: April 02, 2017, 05:37:30 PM »

hmmm...all i hear is "i know fancy words" (alot of fanboi nerddom bafflegab) making fun of someone trying an honest attempt and detailing a comparison between one single weapon i thinks is overpowered and the ENTIRE list of large energy weapons at my disposal (with nary a single true energy beam among them, besides the explosive HIL, which kind of makes your point a little bit silly when you talk explosive but ridicule my use of the enforcer as the drone)

*caveat: since you seem to be intent of just picking me apart out of context let me remind you i've already conceded multiple times i understand the intent of this mod...it's just...i dunno. there's ways of going about making the templars challenging without breaking immersion; And i'd like to point out the very best use of this conundrum is being honest about the lack of medium/large parameters when designing weapons...at least it seems that way to me after reading all 56 pages of this thread.

EDIT: sadly, the ship editor isn't able to work with weapons. Well, the only option is to roleplay (to pick and choose the least immersion breaking elements of a mod and not to touch the rest)
« Last Edit: April 02, 2017, 05:51:49 PM by majorfreak » Logged
Toxcity
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« Reply #852 on: April 02, 2017, 06:12:35 PM »

I disagree that SS beams are ***. They are weapons that control space extremely well.

HIL or Ion force an opponent to play more defensively. In essence they're similar to harpoons as a shield can't safely use their flux without facing consequences. Beams also give energy mounts an advantage vs. more agile targets.

Also just beacause a weapon doesn't require constant micromanagement make it bad. Not everything needs antimatter blaster levels of involvement. As long as a weapon has strengths/weaknesses, it can be interesting.

EDIT: not to be completely off topic, any plans for hybrid templar tech ships? I remember that HELMUT posted a high-tech templar tech hybrid, and it seems like it would be a good way to add more ships without clogging the templar faction itself up with ships.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2017, 06:16:14 PM by Toxcity » Logged
Midnight Kitsune
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« Reply #853 on: April 02, 2017, 06:27:35 PM »

hmmm...all i hear is "i know fancy words" (alot of fanboi nerddom bafflegab) making fun of someone trying an honest attempt and detailing a comparison between one single weapon i thinks is overpowered and the ENTIRE list of large energy weapons at my disposal (with nary a single true energy beam among them, besides the explosive HIL, which kind of makes your point a little bit silly when you talk explosive but ridicule my use of the enforcer as the drone)

*caveat: since you seem to be intent of just picking me apart out of context let me remind you i've already conceded multiple times i understand the intent of this mod...it's just...i dunno. there's ways of going about making the templars challenging without breaking immersion; And i'd like to point out the very best use of this conundrum is being honest about the lack of medium/large parameters when designing weapons...at least it seems that way to me after reading all 56 pages of this thread.
Player agency is basically how much they interact with the player. SS Beams are boring and uninteresting to use.
Notice that lack of constant beams? It is because they are boring and there are very few ways to make them interesting and different.
Also, I'm pointing out major issues in your test bed because it can skew and mess up results
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Stop trying to balance the game around a few minmaxers...
Programming is like sex:
One mistake and you have to support it for the rest of your life.

Tired of having your game crash because of out of date mods? Then click here!
Get Version Checker today! Now with 90% less hassle! Simply toss it into your mod folder, activate the mod like a normal one and BINGO you will now be informed of any and all updates when you start SS campaign up!
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« Reply #854 on: April 02, 2017, 07:07:44 PM »

Beams are in general intended for support roles, as they have efficient flux costs (effective cost = cost per second - flux dissipation per second), long range and instant hits, while dealing less damage against armor (they deal half damage, in case of Longinus, it's equal to a projectile dealing 375 damage per second) and deal soft flux against shields. Burst beams are also falls into support category, but they are a bit more effective against armor as their damage is calculated by the burst's damage per second. As they are support weapons, they are generally dealing energy damage - jack of all trades but master of none.

Now, if you change the damage type of Longinus into HE, they will be rather ineffective against shields indeed, but they will deal HUGE amounts of damage to armor. It is already balanced as it is, cost/damage wise it is not efficient (save for the templar ships) and a ship with 0.5 flux/damage won't build any flux by having 375 flux dissipation for each beam - meaning that it will cost more to the source ship (even to the templars).
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