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Author Topic: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8f  (Read 628919 times)

Dark.Revenant

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Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4b
« Reply #360 on: March 28, 2015, 12:05:08 PM »

Huh.  What's your CPU model?
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Megas

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Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4b
« Reply #361 on: March 28, 2015, 04:56:33 PM »

Feedback as promised:

The Templars are well done.  They have a consistent and unusual design, and are generally very powerful and fun to use.  Priwen Burst is a killer.

The bad...
Templar ships eat too many supplies, and I cannot rely on combat alone to keep them fed and running.  At least in Nexerelin, My Templar used Domain ships because they can use Templar weapons to great effect without the crippling supply costs, and I bought supplies from pirates when I could.  I would never use an Archbishop, and I would think twice before using a Paladin.  The Crusader is the biggest Templar ship I am willing to support in my fleet.

The weapons are overpowered, and can turn some stock ships (like Paragon) into godships once acquired.  In the past, I avoided Neutrino because once I mounted two Phased Array Cannons on a Paragon, it became a godship and slaughtered everything with ease.  With Knights Templar, all I need to do is arm a Paragon or Paladin with nothing but Rhons and Sentenias and simply watch things die.  Despite the quality of Knights Templar, I almost do not want to load the mod because it will devolve into a Rhon and Sentenia (and disruptor) spam-fest once I get them.

Comments on weapons themselves:
The standouts are Rhon laser, Sentenia Assault Cannon, Secace and Galatine disruptors, and Clarents.

Rhon laser is stronger that high intensity laser; not a big deal, I think standard beams are weak in general.  However, this weapon is totally sick when combined with IPDAI hullmod.  Two or more Rhons can snuff missiles better than Dual Flak Cannons and kill things without strong shields.  Its costs are not insignificant, and not all ships can use them effectively, but those that can become almost impervious to missiles and fighters.  Without IPDAI, Rhon is still a beam, and I prefer the Merced Cannon for hard flux on shields.

Sentenia Assault Cannon is probably one of the most overpowered weapons I have used in Starsector.  Better range and DPS than a blaster, or any stock energy weapon for that matter, and homing!  It is so good that I put it on nearly anything with medium or heavy energy weapon slots, and such ships because much, much more powerful.  Its only weakness is windup delay.  Its OP cost is high but not out-of-sight, and it outperforms all stock medium and (maybe) heavy energy weapons.  I take Sentenia over any stock heavy energy weapon or even Templar's Longinus beam any day.

Secace Autocannon and Galatine Heavy Disruptor would be no big deal, except they raise flux on a hit, which makes overloading AI somewhat easy.  Galatine is very good; several on a Dominator or Onslaught can and will wreck fleets.

Clarents, while impressive, are too overpriced for what they do.  Reapers still outperform them, and for much less OP.  They are only good when used by Teuton fighters and you have a carrier to rearm Smiter wings.  On Templar ships, I still prefer Reapers or any of the stock regenerating missiles over Clarents.

Heavy Templar weapons are flashy but impractical, and do not outperform their medium counterparts or the best stock weapons enough to make them worth using.  Juger Heavy Cannon is a joke - slow, and not very damaging for its cost.  Joyeuse Fractal Laser is fun and looks intimidating, but does not outperform the Sentenia enough to make it worth using.  Arondight Accelerator is fun, feels like the railgun from the Quake series (minus the hitscan), but it does not seem to outperform alternatives (such as Galatine) enough to make it worth the pain of using it - high OP cost, high flux cost, long windup and recovery delays.  I have no problem mounting one on an Onslaught, but firing it costs half my flux bar.  I can get nearly as much performance from a Galatine and possibly other heavy weapons.  The Clarent MIRV... easy to use, but not worth the OP unlike Hurricane MIRV or Cyclone Reaper.

Summary:
Overall, this is fun to load if I feel like loading a godmod and crushing everything with overpowered weapons.  Templars being super strong does not matter if I can steal their weapons and make more accessible ships unstoppable.

Suggestion:  Templars should have a destroyer-sized light carrier.  Their only carrier being an Archbishop is very painful for a would-be player-controlled Templar fleet.
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Cycerin

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Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4b
« Reply #362 on: March 28, 2015, 05:30:03 PM »

Rare to see you posting mod feedback, but a welcome surprise. We're going to have to sit down and think about this, you raise a lot of good points.
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NightfallGemini

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Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4b
« Reply #363 on: March 28, 2015, 05:33:47 PM »

Huh.  What's your CPU model?

FX-8350. The issue didn't pop up until recently, so I'm wondering if something changed in how my GPU drivers handle that effect.
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Nanao-kun

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Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4b
« Reply #364 on: March 28, 2015, 05:41:04 PM »

But Reapers don't home. I don't see how you could compare them.
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Tartiflette

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Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4b
« Reply #365 on: March 28, 2015, 06:18:02 PM »

Interesting experience with Templars.

I'd say the main problem with supplies comes from Nexerelin: in a "normal" game you shouldn't have a fleet composed exclusively of Templar ships but only a few, and I believe they have been balanced for that type of fleet.

I disagree with the Clarents: homing, super fast (can hit before the enemy raise it's shield), hit like a truck and near unstoppable by PD, I on the contrary think they are OP. Of course I mostly experienced them from the other side of the launch tube so my opinion may be biased (and I know DR changed them a bit for the next update).

For the problem of mounting Templar weapons on non Templar ships, I think a neat solution could be to create a "Power Grid Perturbation" effect. In short if you mount more Templar weapons than what the ship's power grid can support, the cost for firing them raise sharply. If we say the maximum is 2 Templar weapons on a destroyer size ship, mounting 3 will cause all of them to produce 150% flux, mount 4 and it's 300% etc. For a Cruiser the max amount could be 3, 4 for a capital, and a single one for a frigate...The problem would be to communicate that information to the player during refit, I might be possible to simply refresh the weapons flux real time for the derived stats corner, but certainly not on the weapon card.
Another solution could be to prevent more than a certain number to fire at once, much in the same way only 2 weapons can fire at once on a destroyer, and you have to way for them to cooldown before another one can fire.
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Histidine

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Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4b
« Reply #366 on: March 28, 2015, 07:16:51 PM »

Hmm, interesting discussion. My thoughts:

The thing about Clarents is that on the receiving end, we only see the ridiculous missile swarms that nothing short of a high-grade cruiser or capital can hope to survive (Teuton Smiters are the spawn of the devil). It's only when we try mounting them ourselves that we feel the painful OP costs required to mount a decent amount of Clarents, which generally relegates them to use as a highly opportunistic strike weapon - and it's hard to compete with the Reaper in this role. It's particularly annoying because the friendly AI likes to launch them first thing in any engagement (just like the enemy AI, but the enemy NPCs can afford to lose a few random frigates and destroyers way more than the player can).

Broadly agree with Megas on the heavy weapons.

Dunno about the Sentenia. It eats shields and soft targets, but the 110 damage per shot really hurts it against heavy armor. I'd take the Longinus over it for most purposes - it's just as good for most applications, and soft flux against shields matters a lot less when you have 750 DPS.
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orost

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Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4b
« Reply #367 on: March 28, 2015, 07:32:18 PM »

If you look at Clarents vs Reapers solely from a damage per OP perspective, they're indeed vastly inferior. But you can't forget that they're extremely dissimilar weapons that cannot be compared this way. A Reaper is fairly short-range and requires careful aim and positioning to connect and can be easily dodged or repelled, while a Clarent has longer range, can be fired from any orientation, never misses, is much faster, can retarget and can recover from repelling such as that by a weak Priwen Burst. It's a very reliable "press button to kill target" weapon and when your loadout requires that it's easily worth the OP.

If all you care about is a big burst of damage, then a Reaper is better, but a Clarent is much more than that.
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Megas

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Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4b
« Reply #368 on: March 28, 2015, 07:34:32 PM »

Re: Clarents
I am aware how deadly they are in enemy hands.  They cost too much OP to be practical for ships I control, as I build ships to solo fleets if I pilot them, and a few Clarents cannot solo fleets.  (Neither can Reapers, but at least Reapers are cheap to mount.)

@ Cycerin:  I do not play mods much, but I recently tried Blackrock seriously for the first time.  I loaded older versions before in Exerelin, but Blackrock were eliminated too quickly for me to see what they did.  Gedune, IFed, and Nomads were the survivors I had the most exposure with.  I may post feedback about Blackrock in its topic later, if I find some time.

The main reason why I tried Knights Templar is because it seems like a small enough mod to try.  It also helped that Cycerin had a hand with the mod.

P.S. For fire-and-forget, I abuse Sentenias like no tomorrow.  No need for Clarents when I can fire Sentenias non-stop.
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Dark.Revenant

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Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4b
« Reply #369 on: March 28, 2015, 08:00:45 PM »

I made a number of balance changes, which you can see on the upcoming patch notes on the OP.  Comments?
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Nanao-kun

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Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4b
« Reply #370 on: March 28, 2015, 08:01:41 PM »

Re: Clarents
I am aware how deadly they are in enemy hands.  They cost too much OP to be practical for ships I control, as I build ships to solo fleets if I pilot them, and a few Clarents cannot solo fleets.  (Neither can Reapers, but at least Reapers are cheap to mount.)
But isn't that from the perspective of kite masters and the highly skilled?

I admit though, I've only ever really used the medium and large mounts.
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Cycerin

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Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4b
« Reply #371 on: March 28, 2015, 08:08:53 PM »

I may post feedback about Blackrock in its topic later, if I find some time.

I'd appreciate that. Currently finishing up a big balance/polish patch.
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orost

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Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4b
« Reply #372 on: March 28, 2015, 08:40:14 PM »

The only thing I don't like about the balance changes is the Clarent speed reduction. I very much like how their extreme speed makes them almost unavoidable and thus utterly terrifying and unique. Hearing the Clarent launch sound is a startle like nothing else in the game, because you know you have mere seconds to react, or you will take massive damage. With 450 speed, they become just an another missile, although a powerful one.


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HELMUT

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Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4b
« Reply #373 on: March 29, 2015, 01:43:14 AM »

Personally i never had trouble with supplies in my Templar campaign. Then again, most of the time i only deployed a single Martyr to take down everything from fighters to destroyers, sometimes isolated cruisers. I brought the Paladin (then later i went full Jesuit pack) to take care of the big ones. By doing this method, my expenditures in supplies were very low.

For the Archbishop, i haven't played that much with it (a carrier fleet was too expensive and not as efficient as the lone Rambo Martyr) but the tactic was the same. As it is the slowest ship in the game, i deployed it alone and kept it near the edge of the map, waiting for the enemy. Full Rhon loadout, with integrated PD AI, it's job was just to welcome all the enemy fighters and frigates. I also maxed the flux capacity to be able to unleash the mother of all priwen burst in their face when things went too hot.

And when the small fry was toasted, i waited for the big ones to engage me to deploy all the Teutons. And then the battle ended, usually. The Archbishop, because of its tankiness, can usually survive this kind of tactic, even though having one escorting crusaders wasn't a bad idea to ensure it really stayed alive.

Still, pretty expensive to run as well but at this point, i was swimming in supplies. You still need a freighter from another faction to survive though.

But yeah, the Rhon hurt super hard and the range problem is nullified by ITU, advanced optics and the Riastrad system. Which is why the Martyr felt so brutal in the hands of the player.

I found the Sentenia good but not as crazy as you. Yes, the range as well as the flux generation is better than the blaster, it only have 6 more DPS though and of course, is 6 ops more expensive. However the Blaster have the advantage of dealing a single instance of high damage (500 to 10x110 spread all over the ship) which tends to be better at cracking open the armor faster. The Sentenia projectiles are homing and are very good against fighters though. Sooo... I guess the nerf is justified?

I agree for the Clarents. Yes, they are terrifying when they're fired at you. However Templars are always outnumbered and won't have enough missiles to take down the entire enemy fleet. They will rapidly slaughter one or two big ships but they'll have to use their other guns for the rest. And yeah, a bunch of reapers are better for your flagship. For the AI however? Nah.

I am a bit terrified of the regenerating Roland though. Vanilla MIRVs are some of the most annoying things to deal with but at least you can somewhat dodge/intercept them. Dodging/destroying 4 Clarents every minutes however? Now that's really mean.

For the big guns. I never liked the Juger either. If you want to get rid of missiles, get IPD AI, if you want to get rid of fighters... Nearly all the Templars weapons can wreck them. If not, Priwen burst can.

I liked the Joyeuse however. Torpedo level damage at long range and plenty of ammo to toy with. One-shooting destroyers with that thing is satisfying, plus the Paladin usually have plenty of OPs to mount it.

Never found the Arondight in campaign and haven't played enough with it in missions to say much about it. And unlike Megas i never used Templar weaponry on other ships, so i don't really know about that either.

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Tartiflette

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Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4b
« Reply #374 on: March 29, 2015, 04:02:16 AM »

I agree for the Clarents. Yes, they are terrifying when they're fired at you. However Templars are always outnumbered and won't have enough missiles to take down the entire enemy fleet. They will rapidly slaughter one or two big ships but they'll have to use their other guns for the rest. And yeah, a bunch of reapers are better for your flagship. For the AI however? Nah.

Clarents aren't that much of a big problem on the ships, it's the fighters that could spam them endlessly that were the big source of frustration with those missiles. True now they can be intercepted like normal missiles, but on the other hand the spamming is still a thing and you can't hope to dodge them now. Instead of a small chance to avoid damage in a super fast frigate, all ships can now defend themselves evenly. I'll have to try them, but from here I think it's a good change.
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