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Starsector 0.9.1a is out! (05/10/19); Updated the Forum Rules and Guidelines (02/29/20); Blog post: GIF Roundup (04/11/20)

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Author Topic: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8f  (Read 475427 times)

Wyvern

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Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.1
« Reply #105 on: September 13, 2014, 09:38:39 AM »

Oh, and one further comment on beams: I suspect you tested the Rhon and the Longinus primarily against low tech targets, given your statements about them making frigates melt.  Low tech frigates do indeed melt; high tech ones are much less vulnerable, and against anything from Medusa on up, you're better off not using beams (unless you're carrying a truly overwhelming number of beam weapons.)
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Nanao-kun

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Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.1
« Reply #106 on: September 13, 2014, 10:21:00 AM »

On the other hand I am enjoying these weapons and am having tons of fun! :D
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Cycerin

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Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.1
« Reply #107 on: September 13, 2014, 10:50:25 AM »

Oh, and one further comment on beams: I suspect you tested the Rhon and the Longinus primarily against low tech targets, given your statements about them making frigates melt.  Low tech frigates do indeed melt; high tech ones are much less vulnerable, and against anything from Medusa on up, you're better off not using beams (unless you're carrying a truly overwhelming number of beam weapons.)

Its mostly due to the fact that they will disallow shield toggling, and even a Tempest will max out on soft flux if it keeps firing while tanking a Longinus or two. As you say, high tech frigates can deal with it better.
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Dark.Revenant

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Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.1
« Reply #108 on: September 13, 2014, 12:20:13 PM »

Keep in mind that these weapons are designed primarily for being at their best on Templar ships.  Especially when the hostile Templar ships have 50% weapon flux reduction, every weapon is deadly.  The idea is to make these weapons not automatically be the best in the game; while they should be really good and powerful on Templar ships, for everyone else they have pros and cons like every other weapon.

The Sentenia is best used as a general-purpose kills-everything cannon.  It can't punch armor as well as a Heavy Blaster or Heavy Mauler, it can't kill fighters and drones as well as a Longinus, Heavy Burst Laser, or Dual Flak, it can't reach as far as a Hypervelocity Driver or Heavy Mauler, can't track as well as a Salamander Pod, etc.  However, it can do all of those tasks, if not at the highest level, at least competently.  It can punch through armor over time and deal some pretty nasty DPS, it can kill fighters and drones, it can reach pretty dang far, it can track around and hit targets that are trying to dodge, and more.  Having such multipurpose use is why it works well on your Apogee, which needs to rely on them for most of its combat roles.
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Nanao-kun

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Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.1
« Reply #109 on: September 13, 2014, 01:47:39 PM »

If only I could fit an Excalibur Core onto a Blackrock Karkinos! :P
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Wyvern

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Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.1
« Reply #110 on: September 13, 2014, 03:04:29 PM »

Keep in mind that these weapons are designed primarily for being at their best on Templar ships.  Especially when the hostile Templar ships have 50% weapon flux reduction, every weapon is deadly.  The idea is to make these weapons not automatically be the best in the game; while they should be really good and powerful on Templar ships, for everyone else they have pros and cons like every other weapon.
Definitely a good design goal - the problem I have is that, for a few of these weapons, the cons are just too much.  When even Templar ships perform better with vanilla armaments in place of some of their unique weapons...

The Sentenia...  Having such multipurpose use is why it works well on your Apogee, which needs to rely on them for most of its combat roles.
Actually?  No.  The Heavy Blaster is better than the Sentenia for almost everything you listed; despite the slight homing of the Sentenia, the Heavy Blaster is actually better at hitting fighters, for example (in part because it actually goes where you fire it and won't try to peel off and home in on random other targets).  There are only four situations where the Sentenia has any clear advantage at all: if you have awkward firing arcs where you're going to need to hit things that are at the edge of the arc, if you're capped on vents and need the Sentenia's flux efficiency, if you're trying to fire through a really dense cloud of missiles, or if you really need the slight range advantage.  Templar vessels - especially with their excalibur cores intact - tend to perform much better with heavy blasters.  (The only ones I'd even consider the Sentenia on are their destroyers & carriers, since they're lacking any sort of mobility system and need all the range they can get.)

As with the Merced Cannon, I'd suggest significantly reducing the Sentenia's flux efficiency - the difference here is that it then needs some sort of extra bonus so that it doesn't just totally lose to the heavy blaster; I'd probably try 100 damage per shot, (boosting it to 460 DPS), add maybe 30 EMP damage per shot, and increase the flux costs to around 700 flux/s.

That said, I'm now done here - I've given you my analysis, and you can use or ignore it as you see fit.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2014, 03:07:43 PM by Wyvern »
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ValkyriaL

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Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.1
« Reply #111 on: September 13, 2014, 03:28:00 PM »

Wish i'd get eyes like that on my stuff once in a while. :)
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Dark.Revenant

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Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.1
« Reply #112 on: September 13, 2014, 03:32:31 PM »

Compared to the heavy blaster it does more DPS and uses less flux and is easier to hit with, and even has slightly longer range.  The only real disadvantages are armor penetration and OP.  I don't think the heavy blaster is outright better.
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Cycerin

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Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.1
« Reply #113 on: September 13, 2014, 03:33:44 PM »

Sentenia will mow down literally any target in the game, including stuff spread across several targets like fighter wings. Heavy Blaster offers very good flux efficiency on templar ships though
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pigreko

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Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.1
« Reply #114 on: September 13, 2014, 07:23:44 PM »

this mod is very interesting. I really love the theme, and the mechanics are also very intriguing. Here my feedback:

The Sententia and Merced sprites look somehow out of place on templar ships. I mean, when I look at them on an archbishop or a paladin, "I feel" like they almost look if they are not themed at all with the mod.

All the systems seem to work with the idea of being melee, and I found that the "flux pulse" pwnyr poweroverwhelming kamehameha signature right click spell, is an epic frigate/fighter/missile swarm counter. But then having medium to high flux kills the shield efficiency. Shouldn't the burst remove some flux? as it is now I led to believe the stock held out performs the templar shield+burst in every encounter involving big ships.

As an after thought, I would very like to see more hidden weapon mounts on those ships, like the built-in pd system. Just for all the little mounts of course, so we can appreciate the beauty of those pure and proud vessels.

Where is the crusade commander? I wish to play a capital ship sized templar ship with 2 or 3 large mounts to actually make some raw use of all those wonderful energy weapons.

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JohnDoe

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Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.1
« Reply #115 on: September 13, 2014, 08:47:16 PM »

But then having medium to high flux kills the shield efficiency
I think that's the whole point, it's a trade-off between letting less damage leak through shield and being able to use a more powerful AoE EMP weapon.
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pigreko

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Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.1
« Reply #116 on: September 14, 2014, 10:54:57 AM »

But then having medium to high flux kills the shield efficiency
I think that's the whole point, it's a trade-off between letting less damage leak through shield and being able to use a more powerful AoE EMP weapon.

Of course, I understand the point, but versus a group of destroyers or versus a capital ship, I feel the system is counter productive. Well the point is: I wish for them to be even more powerful, cause I love the synergy with the pulse: absorb damage and fire your weapons, rise to a not efficient level, discharge the flux in a glorious explosion while lowering your flux level therefore keeping your shield useful.

The amount of flux lowered could also not be that big, maybe percentage based? It would just synergies soooo well.
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Cycerin

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Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.1
« Reply #117 on: September 14, 2014, 11:10:09 AM »

The reason Priwen burst builds flux instead of reducing it is that we don't want it to be a no-brainer to just use the system almost every time it's available. You'll have to judge whether or not it'll be worth it, if you'll overload from using it, etc.
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Toxcity

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Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.1
« Reply #118 on: September 14, 2014, 11:31:39 AM »

Of course, I understand the point, but versus a group of destroyers or versus a capital ship, I feel the system is counter productive. Well the point is: I wish for them to be even more powerful, cause I love the synergy with the pulse: absorb damage and fire your weapons, rise to a not efficient level, discharge the flux in a glorious explosion while lowering your flux level therefore keeping your shield useful.

The amount of flux lowered could also not be that big, maybe percentage based? It would just synergies soooo well.

It would be fun to play with, but imagine fighting against it.
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Farlarzia

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Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.1
« Reply #119 on: September 14, 2014, 11:37:25 AM »

*ahem* I think that would be totally fair and balanced, you should definitely put that out ASAP, hopefully before that totally unrelated tournament starts. Yeah, that sounds like a good idea.
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