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Starsector 0.9.1a is out! (05/10/19); Blog post: Skills and Story Points (07/08/19)

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Author Topic: [0.9.1a] Scy V1.57 (2019/09/04)  (Read 567285 times)

Tartiflette

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Re: [0.65.1a] Scy V0.86 (01/12) Hotfix
« Reply #285 on: December 10, 2014, 04:11:21 AM »

Ho my, detailed feedback! I thought only Helmut did those. Thanks a lot!

Now before answering on a case by case, I should have a word on the balance of Scy in general:
 - The first rule is, since Scy ships are fast, almost all their weapons have a shorter range than vanilla. It's necessary to avoid endless kiting: you have to actually get in range of the enemy weapons to deal damage to them.
 - Secondly they generally have lower DPS than vanilla, but also lower fire rate. Because of that each shot deal much damage and the weapons are generally a bit better than the stats could suggest. For example, the Medium Kinetic Accelerator that deal a bit less dps than the vanilla Needler (200 vs 211) but is much more prone to cause overloads because the enemy can't drop shields like during the Needler burst. Also that mean that the KACC is more damaging against armor while the Needler is almost worthless.
 - Thirdly they have high flux costs (often twice as much than the dps), but combined with the fast venting and large flux pool on Scy ships, this is not a problem. When they are used on a Vanilla ship however, they are inefficient. Combined with the slow fire-rate, you can often see frigates going close, discharging their weapons, taking some distance, venting and going in again as the weapons just reloaded.
 - Lastly, they have higher OP cost than vanilla to avoid weapon spamming: Scy ships have fewer mount, but roughly the same amount of OP available so it's not a problem for them. On Vanilla ships however, they don't exactly cut it until you reach high levels.

   Per design choice, Scy is weaker than vanilla, and I won't change that. It is meant to be a faction for advanced player, that seeks ships very fun to fly and crazy weapons satisfying to fire. A high risks, high reward faction. Also, I spent quite some time trying to find a way to avoid making them OP when using vanilla or other mods weapon. That's why most of the ships have few mounts but often built-in main weapon.
But, as always, things can be improved, and the balance is certainly far from perfect now.


So now about your feedback:

Small auto-nailers: same OP than the Vulcan, better range but worst precision, slightly more flux. I think they are in a right spot: better to deal with multiple missiles, but sometimes miss a single one.

Medium Burst-Nailer: Yeah, still not satisfied with this one. I think the simple solution would be to make sure at least one of the shots goes straight and hit the target. Or Maybe use a non linear dispersion, with more shots stacked near the center.

Focus beam: I like it better now! :-[ It feels more punchy, and makes the SCPB feel more unique. It's a good support weapon, and ideal against unshielded target. A Tisiphone frigate with two of those will blaze through a fleeing fleet without even slowing down. The ammo count is a bit low, like a lot of weapons I made (did I said enough I'm very much against the removal of ammo in vanilla?) but with extended magazines it's near 21K of potential damage, two thirds of most vanilla weapons... Okay, I will increase the ammo a bit since it's a beam.

SCPB: As the description says, it really can give all it's measure only when mounted on the Nemean Lion. Though a weapon useful only on one ship is a bad game design decision... :-\ It was more powerful before, and I may have nerfed it too hard. I won't  change the clip size though: with ammo magazines, it's an insta-kill weapon for many targets. Mount three of them on the Lion and you can take care of any low-tech/mid-tech destroyer in one volley and there is nothing it can do to defend itself. It would be very frustrating if it was your destroyer instead. I could simply reduce the flux usage.

Energy Blaster: Agreed, strangely one of the first weapon I made, and I never changed it since. I guess I got lucky.

Mortars: Really? The small Mortar is almost exactly a half size Mauler, with the same damage per round... That thing eats armor for breakfast! Of course the slow projectile makes it hard to aim, but when it hit it's a carnage. And the large one is almost equivalent to a twin Hellbore, with a much slower fire-rate granted but it strip even an Onslaught from it's armor in one shot. I think I could maybe increase a bit the flight speed of the projectiles for the smaller ones, to make hitting something a bit easier, but I have to tread carefully because these things pack a punch.

Vibrating beam: Yeah... It looks cool, but don't really cut it in combat. I'm not sure about what to do with it. I think it could be good if it was firing continuously, but the way it is scripted prevent tracking the target while firing. And there isn't many workaround in the API to do so. Will need to rework it, or remove it.

Slasher Beam: Yep, and it's terrific when used in pair as the first will strip the armor, and the second chew the hull. If I change anything on these, it won't be their damage but maybe their range to be near the all-1000-range vanilla weapons that are coming in SS 0.65.2

Small KACC: Now I realize it is worthless. I balanced it against the light dual autocannon, but I didn't saw the Railgun was a straight upgrade on it. Will rework it.

Medium KACC: Mmh, I'm having a hard time finding it a nice spot because of it's overlapping function with the Penetrator Railgun. I might simply gives it perfect accuracy and almost the same range as the Large KACC? It should be almost the same as the Penetrator Railgun, only cheaper, with half damage per shot and not the ability to pierce stuff (I don't know if anyone noticed but if that weapon overload it's target, it usually also deal some damage to the hull with the same shot.)

Penetrator Railgun: Agreed, will do.

Heavy KACC: It can overload small targets in one shot, so I don't think it need any buff. The short range is somewhat an advantage btw: when an enemy overload, it's deep into the firing range of other weapons and will take a pounding before managing to retreat. And as I said in the beginning, if it's "Ok-ish", it's where it should ^^

ORION Artillery: It's maybe the only long range weapon in the Scy arsenal, with it you can easily kite and win while never entering the enemy weapons range. That's why it has such low ammo count. And even then, load three of them on a Nemean Lion and it can beat a Paragon in AI control without any level skill. If you use it on a Scy Manticore as a support weapon, the flux isn't much an issue since they can stay out of trouble and vent whenever. I might nudge the flux down a but, but don't expect it to become a front-line weapon.

Small Flak: Great!

Light Minigun: That's why there is the Small Flak! They are terrific in tandem.

Ricochet Gun: Same here, I'm rather pleased how it turned out. That weapon was the bane of the Templar Frigates in my last playthrough.

Area Scorcher: Mmh, well, this weapon isn't really a point defense, if I add the PD flag, it would loose too much time tracking missiles instead of firing on the main source of danger. It's much more adapted to damage whole fighter wings on approach and dealing with their missiles and bombs as they fire them. It also is very efficient against carrier and missiles ships as you can damage fighters when they dock or take off or kill the missiles before they accelerate. With one of these, you can take on a Onslaught without receiving a continuous stream of rockets, or remove all the Astral drones in a few seconds. It's a bit situational, but having one in the fleet can really make you day easier. Also, it is VERY efficient at taking out armor-less ships! I will probably include a proximity detonation since I reduced it's precision in the last patch. Right now it detonate only if it hit something or reach it's max range.

Singularity Torpedo: The pulling effect is only significant if you hit the hull of a large target. Try to hit an Astral and suddenly the sky is cleared from drones, missiles... And Astral ><! (my favorite is to shoot the back of a Dominator has it launch 3 volley of Pilums) It also have the distinct advantage to flame-out nearby fighters and missiles, that can give you a short break. Unlike the Cyclone, they are guided so I balanced them against the Huricane instead, and that one only hold 10 ammo... I significantly nerfed it in the last patch because it was way too powerful against shield-less factions: only two of those could kill an Archbishop! I will playtest them further.

Heavy Swarmer: Also perfect to spread chaos in PD and land a Singularity torpedo hit. Why do you think I placed two large launchers on the front of the Erymanthian Boar?  ;D

Laser Torpedoes: Same here, but I'm not sure about raising their ammo: they are almost free hits already, given how hard it is to intercept them before the attack range. If the launcher holds more, I'd have to reduce the range of the splitting to make it somewhat balanced... But then they will be less fun.

Rockets: Will do.

Coasting Missiles: My only complain is how the AI shoot all of them right from the start instead of keeping some for the retreating ships.

I see you missed the Hacking Commlink. I don't blame you, the weapon don't look like much on paper, but strangely it might be one of the most powerful ones... If you use enough of them! No really, point 6 of them to a single cruiser and it won't be able to defend itself. Of course that also mean 6 sub-par PD weapon instead of Miniguns or Flaks.

Well, that was more than I expected to write! Thank you for taking the time to write all of this down, I very much appreciate. As you can guess, I preferred starting low, and progressively raise the balance to the right spot. That way you have to learn how to use the weapons efficiently, instead of having an efficient weapon that you learn to make OP ><.
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StarSchulz

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Re: [0.65.1a] Scy V0.86 (01/12) Hotfix
« Reply #286 on: December 10, 2014, 05:06:35 PM »

I actually found the Area-Scorcher Artillery to be a great asset vs ships with low armor and a bad shield radius. I put it on a Stheno cruiser and with its speed and the range of the Area-Scorcher, you can kite and kill ships like the Medusa because the shots hit all around it ignoring the shield radius for the most part. Direct hits cause it to detonate and some of the shots end up hitting all over the ship
 ( it itself was enough to beat up a Templar Destroyer 1v1, as there are so many hits the lattice shields cant figure out what is going on. even when it got close the 2 energy blasters killed him quick )
 Next i think i will put multiple on a lion, to see if it can be a real threat vs heavier armored ships like the enforcer.

 Scy ships are super fun to fly, i love teleporting behind a destroyer and unloading an energy blaster before phasing away in my flagship Megaera  :D
Speaking of that little Devil, the AI doesn't quite get how to pilot it, it will teleport forward, maybe shoot and then vent instantly, often leading to its untimely death. although i don't know what you can even do to fix that, i just wanted to say that somewhere because i have lost quite a few to stupid mistakes like that

anyway, this is pretty much my favorite mod, love everything about it.
 

jupjupy

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Re: [0.65.1a] Scy V0.86 (01/12) Hotfix
« Reply #287 on: December 11, 2014, 11:59:29 AM »

Ah, yes, the Hacking Commlink.

Never touched it.

Scy ships have too many ballistic slots, and I prefer to use the universal slots on Scy ships for some much needed burst lasers (Or e-Flak when I use SS+, those things are crazy). They also synchronize very nicely with the extended magazines that Scy ships basically need for any lengthy battle.

....

Okay, so I just gave it a whirl.

Uh... I dont see the point of it. Its like an Ion Cannon but... worse. It has literally no effect on shields (really, 7.5 damage per second against them), and fails to dissipate enough EMP to do anything really worthwhile. I had 4 of them on a Siren blasting away at a Hound... and it took a full 5 seconds just to short out its Assault Chaingun.

Okay, I guess its easier to aim. But still...

EDIT: Now I just thought about how one could go about expanding it. It would be kinda cool to have a large variant of it - since Scy ships like the Stenos have a Large Universal - that was considerably more powerful, or perhaps a dedicated Electronic Warfare ship with a large version built in. I'm not sure if this can be coded, but both the small and large variants could, instead of causing EMP and fragmentation damage, have some kind of special, random effect when projected against an unshielded target for long enough. Say, adding a certain amount of soft flux (hacking into a reactor feed), causing weapons around the area to spray wildly instead of aiming (hacking into targeting), making the enemy ship turn in a specific direction without their input (hacking maneuvering thrusters), or disabling systems, or whatever. Of course, the large variant would trigger such effects much faster, and small variants would stack their effects. Just my two cents on how to make it more interesting, seeing as we have all these really cool things like retractable armor already.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2014, 12:17:45 PM by jupjupy »
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SainnQ

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Re: [0.65.1a] Scy V0.86 (01/12) Hotfix
« Reply #288 on: December 12, 2014, 04:58:46 AM »

Awesome mod.

One question tho, are Mining ships supposed to be available on the market? And do they work currently?

It'd be nice if they did, I'm having a really REALLY hard time gaining faction standing to unlock anything respectable.
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Tartiflette

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Re: [0.65.1a] Scy V0.86 (01/12) Hotfix
« Reply #289 on: December 12, 2014, 05:07:34 AM »

*/now that's a nice copy/pasting  ;D /*

Yes they are supposed to be on the market, because they can be a correct mixed fuel/cargo transport with some defense capabilities, but no they don't mine. And they won't do so unless vanilla Starsector introduces the mechanic, otherwise Scy would have an unfair advantage. They are more for the universe flavor right now...

Scy is probably the easiest faction to improve you rep with right now: they have plenty of enemies, no concurrent market nearby, and if you hunt the bounties that often spawn in Acheron you get some rep improvement even if they didn't posted it. And with their multiple station and barely sustainable economy there is plenty of food shortages to take advantage of.
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AMDAMK

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Re: [0.65.1a] Scy V0.86 (01/12) Hotfix
« Reply #290 on: December 16, 2014, 04:16:12 PM »

Playing the old one, for .62a RC3
Spoiler
4998991 [Thread-5] INFO  com.fs.profiler.Profiler  - Reassigning fleet members (in response to UI actions)                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          5      0,00s      0,00%
4998991 [Thread-5] INFO  com.fs.profiler.Profiler  - Reassigning fleet members (from Admiral AI)                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   17      0,00s      0,00%
4998991 [Thread-5] ERROR com.fs.starfarer.combat.O0OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO  - java.lang.NullPointerException
java.lang.NullPointerException
   at com.fs.starfarer.combat.entities.Ship.setWeaponGlow(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.combat.systems.OOoO.advance(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.combat.entities.Ship.advance(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatEngine.advance(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.combat.G.??00(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.oOOO.A.?0000(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.combat.O0OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.o00000(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.StarfarerLauncher$2.run(Unknown Source)
   at java.lang.Thread.run(Unknown Source)
[close]

Found this. From the command-cruiser? Was there a fix that I miss? Or is that a new one? How i said, not for .65a, but 0.62a RC3.
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Tartiflette

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Re: [0.65.1a] Scy V0.86 (01/12) Hotfix
« Reply #291 on: December 17, 2014, 12:40:10 AM »

I think I remember this one... I believe the Euryale did nothing by that time (and was buggy as you can see), that's why it never spawned in the AI hands. I won't support an older version of the mod, especially when you just need to never use that ship. If you want to deal with that yourself to be sure, you can remove the ship-system in the ship_data.csv.
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AMDAMK

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Re: [0.65.1a] Scy V0.86 (01/12) Hotfix
« Reply #292 on: December 17, 2014, 03:26:20 AM »

I think I remember this one... I believe the Euryale did nothing by that time (and was buggy as you can see), that's why it never spawned in the AI hands. I won't support an older version of the mod, especially when you just need to never use that ship. If you want to deal with that yourself to be sure, you can remove the ship-system in the ship_data.csv.

Ok, no support for older version, noted. I don't've hoped, that older versions are supported, but it's worth a try.
When I'm right understanding, i've the persmission to modify ( this older one ) in any way i like?

But, I've not the permission to release anything ( but don't worry, i won't release anything, it is just for myselve ).

Spoiler
So, can I write then a new shipsystem for it?
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Tartiflette

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Re: [0.65.1a] Scy V0.86 (01/12) Hotfix
« Reply #293 on: December 17, 2014, 03:53:32 AM »

Technicaly this mod is:
Quote
Based on a work at http://fractalsoftworks.com.

(because it do matter to me to have a legal context)
So yes you can modify the files, you can even release it without my consent but you can't make money from it, you have to credit me and FractalSoftworks, and you have to share everything too.
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AMDAMK

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Re: [0.65.1a] Scy V0.86 (01/12) Hotfix
« Reply #294 on: December 17, 2014, 05:46:04 AM »

Technicaly this mod is:
Quote
Based on a work at http://fractalsoftworks.com.

(because it do matter to me to have a legal context)
So yes you can modify the files, you can even release it without my consent but you can't make money from it, you have to credit me and FractalSoftworks, and you have to share everything too.


Noted. And thanks. But how I write, I didn't will not release anything.
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Vixor

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Re: [0.65.1a] Scy V0.86 (01/12) Hotfix
« Reply #295 on: December 18, 2014, 05:11:50 AM »

Hi! I'm doing a 0.6.2a installation, and I was wondering if you could please re-upload V0.66b of SCY? Or any other 0.6.2a compatible version, really.
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Tartiflette

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Re: [0.65.1a] Scy V0.86 (01/12) Hotfix
« Reply #296 on: December 18, 2014, 08:41:11 AM »

I don't have it anymore, I only keep a couple of the last versions. Besides, it's so old and limited I don't want people to play it, bad promotion material for the mod... (maybe AMDAMK can share his, but personally, I don't want to have anything to do with that worthless antique ;D)
« Last Edit: December 18, 2014, 01:32:44 PM by Tartiflette »
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AMDAMK

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Re: [0.65.1a] Scy V0.86 (01/12) Hotfix
« Reply #297 on: December 18, 2014, 11:37:52 AM »

Quote
Hi! I'm doing a 0.6.2a installation, and I was wondering if you could please re-upload V0.66b of SCY? Or any other 0.6.2a compatible version, really.
I don't have it anymore, I only keep a couple of the last versions. Besides, it's so old and limited I don't want people to play it, bad promotion material for the mod... (maybe AMDAMK can share is, but personally, I don't want to have anything to do with that worthless antique ;D)


I don't have the 0.66B, only the .65. Sorry for that, und sorry for to say you, don't expect, that ist unmodified. And everything else, we should do it in privat. I don't think, that Tartiflette accept, that we spam this thread full of an outdated version of this mod.








To prevent a doublepost, easy editing  8)

I have now some trouble that is my fault, because i have made some changes ( only for me 8) ), of course for the newest .65a
What i have changed:

--> The Scy faction is now a missle-faction only.
----> To prevent they're get out of missles, they have now a system, that refills some missles in a period of time..
--> writing some customfleet ( Lightfleets, normalfleet, largefleet, battlefleets, aaaand Battle-Conquest-Fleets..)
---> My problem with the custom fleets are, that they have only 10%CR
Spoiler

"SCY_Test":{
            "displayName":"Test",
            "maxFleetPoints":2500,
            "daysWorthOfSupplies":[80, 100],
            "lyWorthOfFuel":[50, 100],
            "extraCrewPercent":[50, 80],
            "marinesPercent":[10, 20],
            "ships":{
                "SCY_megaera_combat":           [5, 10],
                "SCY_lealaps_combat":             [5, 10],
                "SCY_alecto_combat":               [5, 10],
                "SCY_lamia_combat":                [5, 10],
                "SCY_orthrus_combat":             [5, 10],
                "SCY_tisiphone_elite":               [5, 10],
                "SCY_megaera_suckerPunch":    [5, 10],
                "SCY_alecto_mixte":                 [5, 10],
                "SCY_lamia_elite":                   [5, 10],
                "SCY_orthrus_elite":                 [5, 10],
                "SCY_manticore_assault":          [5, 10],
                "SCY_manticoreMirv_assault":    [5, 10],
                "SCY_manticorePhase_assault":  [5, 10],
                "SCY_manticore_support":         [5, 10],
                "SCY_manticoreMirv_support":   [5, 10],
                "SCY_manticorePhase_support": [5, 10],
                },
            },

Spoiler
And i don't now really what means the first number after the corner bracket and what means the last number before the corner bracket..
[close]
[close]
« Last Edit: December 21, 2014, 11:42:11 AM by AMDAMK »
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Tartiflette

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Re: [0.65.1a] Scy V0.86 (01/12) Hotfix
« Reply #298 on: December 28, 2014, 05:23:32 PM »

Look! I'm alive! Sorry I didn't replied earlier, I was away (you know, Holidays, family, stuff...) So:
I have now some trouble that is my fault, because i have made some changes ( only for me 8) ), of course for the newest .65a
What i have changed:

--> The Scy faction is now a missle-faction only.
----> To prevent they're get out of missles, they have now a system, that refills some missles in a period of time..
--> writing some customfleet ( Lightfleets, normalfleet, largefleet, battlefleets, aaaand Battle-Conquest-Fleets..)
---> My problem with the custom fleets are, that they have only 10%CR
Spoiler
"SCY_Test":{
            "displayName":"Test",
            "maxFleetPoints":2500,
            "daysWorthOfSupplies":[80, 100],
            "lyWorthOfFuel":[50, 100],
            "extraCrewPercent":[50, 80],
            "marinesPercent":[10, 20],
            "ships":{
                "SCY_megaera_combat":           [5, 10],
                "SCY_lealaps_combat":             [5, 10],
                "SCY_alecto_combat":               [5, 10],
                "SCY_lamia_combat":                [5, 10],
                "SCY_orthrus_combat":             [5, 10],
                "SCY_tisiphone_elite":               [5, 10],
                "SCY_megaera_suckerPunch":    [5, 10],
                "SCY_alecto_mixte":                 [5, 10],
                "SCY_lamia_elite":                   [5, 10],
                "SCY_orthrus_elite":                 [5, 10],
                "SCY_manticore_assault":          [5, 10],
                "SCY_manticoreMirv_assault":    [5, 10],
                "SCY_manticorePhase_assault":  [5, 10],
                "SCY_manticore_support":         [5, 10],
                "SCY_manticoreMirv_support":   [5, 10],
                "SCY_manticorePhase_support": [5, 10],
                },
            },
And i don't now really what means the first number after the corner bracket and what means the last number before the corner bracket..
[close]
You are trying to spawn a custom fleet "by hand" using the old vanilla fleet spawning, and in that case [5, 10] means between 5 and 10 ships of that type (I'm not sure if the fleet spawner picks the ship until the max FP is met or if it's a total proportion). Now you have a lot a extra crew, lots of supplies and lots of fuel... but no freighter, transport or tankers! I bet all the ships are badly overloaded and get massive CR penalties.

In the meantime, I've been pretty quiet because I was working on... herm... Let say another project-that-will-be-revealed-only-at-a-later-date-when-it's-ready. And believe me when I say "later", it could be 6 months before I get something in working order. Anyway, that doesn't mean Scy is put to sleep, only that it now has to share my free time with a roomate. Still, I have started to work on some stuff like this:



Old Lamia class destroyer (right), Lamia redesign (center right), armored Lamia (center left), Orthrus destroyer on the far left for reference.
It has been brought to my attention that Scy frigates are scary, the armored cruisers can hold their own, but between them there is only the squishy Lamia, or the rapidly depleted Orthrus. I never liked the Lamia design much so I decided to make a new one that could also be converted in an armored version. That second one loose the single missile launcher but gain one beam from the Armored Sthenos nose, and two small anti-missiles launchers. The old Lamia might be reused as a dedicated carrier after some sprite refit, and then the Hydra will loose it's flight deck.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2014, 05:27:48 PM by Tartiflette »
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Nanao-kun

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Re: [0.65.1a] Scy V0.86 (01/12) Hotfix
« Reply #299 on: December 28, 2014, 06:33:16 PM »

Ooooh. Nice.
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