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Starsector 0.9.1a is out! (05/10/19); Blog post: Raiding for Fun and Profit (11/27/19)

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Author Topic: [0.9.1a] Scy V1.58RC4 (2019/11/26)  (Read 579319 times)

ThePollie

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Re: [0.9.0a] Scy V1.53 (2019/01/05)
« Reply #1155 on: March 04, 2019, 06:46:11 PM »

This mod has been giving me a lot of grief, and I'm not sure what the fix is. I've tried plenty, but this was the first I've had this issue with. The ships feel fun to fly, but only if I fly them. I routinely lose entire fleets in combat, however, as the AI seems woefully incompetent and simply get slagged at every opportunity. Even in fights where I seem to have a noticeable advantage, I often come out with more losses than gains because of how many ships just get blown up in battle.

My last battle I went in with six frigates and a cruiser, against five frigates and a destroyer. My cruiser was the only survivor, and I had to kill both the destroyer and two of the frigates personally. I've tried numerous captain types, but none of them really stand out. Aggressive ones die first, cautious ones generally do nothing the entire fight, and steady simply engage and die soon after. I've tried dozens of different builds, from more conservative rigs to more all-or-nothing brawlers, but nothing seems to work. If I don't personally fly the damn thing, they just act like they're made of iron and get slagged. As much as I'm enjoying these ships, the frustration of losing two thirds of my fleet to even pirate encounters is beyond wearing thin.
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ThePollie

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Re: [0.9.0a] Scy V1.53 (2019/01/05)
« Reply #1156 on: March 07, 2019, 02:11:07 AM »

Really getting this vibe this stuff was never play tested at all.
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Tartiflette

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Re: [0.9.0a] Scy V1.53 (2019/01/05)
« Reply #1157 on: March 07, 2019, 03:50:38 AM »

Yet many people like this mod and play with it regularly. (It also was the faction that won one of the AI tournaments so there's that). While the frigate lineup is deliberatly tame compared to vanilla, the destroyers are alright and the cruisers are pretty good, particularly in the player hands.

I would suggest popping by the Discord Server to share your loadouts and get advices on how to build a competent Scyan fleet.
http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=11488.0
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pairedeciseaux

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Re: [0.9.0a] Scy V1.53 (2019/01/05)
« Reply #1158 on: March 07, 2019, 04:04:20 AM »

Other than plain bad ship loadout and/or fleet composition, one has to be careful learning about its own failure during/after battle. How were your Scy ships destroyed in that last battle? Missiles ? Fighters ? Getting flanked by several enemy ships ?

One thing that is especially helpful in my experience with early game Scy, is to keep the ships together using fleet command order : guard and/or escort order actually help avoid your ship getting flanked, which is important for Scy because it is one of their weak spot.

Also, pay attention to (D) hullmods on your ships, some are really crippling for Scy ships.
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ThePollie

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Re: [0.9.0a] Scy V1.53 (2019/01/05)
« Reply #1159 on: March 07, 2019, 07:23:52 AM »

Popularity doesn't mean quality. I've watched Alectos get overtaken and slagged by Eagle cruisers. Argus carriers barreling into entire formations to be instantly killed, despite "Cautious" captains. Most of my losses are literally just them either doing something astronomically stupid - like diving head first into death - or just being run-down by ships they are apparently unwilling to avoid. I started with the stock loadouts - and when that failed miserably - started tinkering. Doesn't help stupid AI decisions or simple game balance problems. Condors and Eagles are single-handedly responsible for most of my losses.
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Blothorn

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Re: [0.9.0a] Scy V1.53 (2019/01/05)
« Reply #1160 on: March 07, 2019, 11:40:17 AM »

Carriers suicide in general; that is hardly unique to Scy (it does seem to affect primarily fast carriers, which are more likely to reach point-blank range before being discouraged; the Drover/Heron are notorious for it too).

In general, Scy should not be hanging around in a fight--they don't have the armor or dissipation for it. Build them for burst damage, and prepare to bring support in case one gets in trouble against something not notably faster.

As far as losing to the Eagle is concerned--it is a great duelist with burst mobility. A cruiser losing a 1:1 to an eagle and then having trouble getting away is more often a sign of poor planning than a weakness of the cruiser.
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SCC

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Re: [0.9.0a] Scy V1.53 (2019/01/05)
« Reply #1161 on: March 07, 2019, 11:57:42 AM »

I would like to point out that in the tournament I have noticed Armored Lamias act overly aggressive, overextending themselves swiftly. I don't know if there's something beyond "smaller ships can't retreat because bigger ships are pushing it forward" behaviour to that, though.

ThePollie

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Re: [0.9.0a] Scy V1.53 (2019/01/05)
« Reply #1162 on: March 07, 2019, 12:05:05 PM »

My issue isn't my cruiser, it's my frigates. This last fight I tried escort orders to keep organized. I still lost a Talos who charged into the enemy formation and was instantly blown up. The escort idea is keeping them from self-isolating and dying to other frigates and destroyers, but it isn't keeping them from deciding to kamikaze themselves at every opportunity. The ships aren't built to slug it out, I understand that. The AI doesn't seem to.
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Blothorn

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Re: [0.9.0a] Scy V1.53 (2019/01/05)
« Reply #1163 on: March 07, 2019, 12:29:01 PM »

Very few frigates survive long in cruiser fights--the vanilla Tempest and Omen are exceptions in that regard, not the standard.

And escort orders in 0.9 are *very* bad for escort survivability--a fast ship escorting a slow ship is locked in position, unable to use its mobility to retreat, and the escort behavior will have it deliberately take shots for the escorted ship.
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ThePollie

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Re: [0.9.0a] Scy V1.53 (2019/01/05)
« Reply #1164 on: March 07, 2019, 12:43:03 PM »

I've had plenty of frigates survive cruiser fights, before. Vanilla and other mods - They actively preserved themselves by not running in like morons.
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ThePollie

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Re: [0.9.0a] Scy V1.53 (2019/01/05)
« Reply #1165 on: March 08, 2019, 01:47:24 PM »

Is the AI honestly built for these ships specifically to only abide two extremes? Either suicidal aggression or uncompromised cowardice?
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Histidine

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Re: [0.9.0a] Scy V1.53 (2019/01/05)
« Reply #1166 on: March 09, 2019, 07:02:20 PM »

Tried it out myself and shot some videos, crossposting from Discord:


Observations (crosspost from video descriptions + Discord):

Quote
- Both officers are cautious. This seems to hold the AI back badly till the Full Assault order is given.
- It probably doesn't help that most of the Scy frigates [as configured in my fleet] lack the tools to defeat both armor and shields, so they have trouble in their 1v1s. The fight might have gone better if they'd all swarmed a single target.
- Defend order doesn't really go any better, which in hindsight is kinda to be expected given that the solution is incompatible with the problem.

Although... I far prefer this failure mode to the AI suiciding. My standard tactic uses my flagship to locally win everywhere; if my allies kill enemies that's good, but if not they just need to pin the enemies on their side in place until I can get around to killing them.

Pollie on Discord:
Quote
That has been my tactic for dealing with Scy weirdness, thus far. I built a Corocotta for interdiction and just let my fleet tie them up while I zip around isolating and slagging anything I could catch out of position.

It may be that some factions rely more on player flagship play than others (I think this is already kinda true of high-tech vs. low-tech even in vanilla?) Not necessarily a problem, but may be something to note.
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ThePollie

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Re: [0.9.0a] Scy V1.53 (2019/01/05)
« Reply #1167 on: March 09, 2019, 08:55:58 PM »

I'm done bothering with the mod. Whatever is causing the issue, I don't care to find out. Nothing is worth this much of a headache.
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Flare

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Re: [0.9.0a] Scy V1.53 (2019/01/05)
« Reply #1168 on: March 12, 2019, 09:25:30 PM »

I've always loved this mod, even when the AI plays funky with the behaviour of these ships. I especially love the missiles like the swirly EMP and laser det one. None of my playthroughs are complete without Scy heh.
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Quote from: Thana
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The battle station is not completely operational, shall we say.

"Now witness the firepower of this thoroughly buggy and unoperational batt... Oh, hell, you know what? Just ignore the battle station, okay?"

Tartiflette

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Re: [0.9.0a] Scy V1.53 (2019/01/05)
« Reply #1169 on: March 13, 2019, 01:02:36 AM »

Thanks. Although as I said on Discord, I cannot deny that the AI changes in 0.9 made Scy ships a LOT worse. I'm waiting to see if 0.9.1 improves them back a bit but if that's not the case, I think I'll have to once again fiddle with the whole balance design again.
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