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Author Topic: why is it that in starsector Losing != FUN!  (Read 26231 times)

Megas

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Re: why is it that in starsector Losing != FUN!
« Reply #45 on: May 08, 2014, 03:47:42 PM »

They should be useful, but not so vital I must have them or suffer unduly.  There is something wrong when nine out of ten ships in my fleet is a freighter or tug, and the tenth ship is my all-powerful (Medusa) flagship.
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Uomoz

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Re: why is it that in starsector Losing != FUN!
« Reply #46 on: May 08, 2014, 03:56:03 PM »

I really, really, hope the game will manage to discourage minmaxing, as a general concept i find it completely counter-immersive.
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Sundog

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Re: why is it that in starsector Losing != FUN!
« Reply #47 on: May 08, 2014, 03:57:19 PM »

I agree that context, greater danger, and many other things mentioned in this thread would make it more fun to die in Starsector, but I think there's another important thing to consider, and this thread makes it readily apparent. Players have vastly different opinions on how much progress they should be able to lose. It's a spectrum of subjective preference ranging from permadeath to permanent progress. Pretty obvious, right? Even so, the vast majority of games (including Starsector) give players very little control over how much progress they can lose. That may be necessary sometimes, but more often I think it's a missed opportunity to broaden appeal. Do you guys think there's a good way for Starsector to let players decide how much progress they can lose?

Not saying this is necessarily the case here, but I think this could have a lot to do with the mods one is playing with. The AI handles some weapons better than others, I could see some over-the-top-ish or just unusual/oddball weapons resulting in fairly random outcomes.
You're right of course, versatile as the standard AI is, it can't handle everything predictably. Good thing my mod doesn't have any weapons like that  ;)

Thaago

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Re: why is it that in starsector Losing != FUN!
« Reply #48 on: May 08, 2014, 05:09:24 PM »

They should be useful, but not so vital I must have them or suffer unduly.  There is something wrong when nine out of ten ships in my fleet is a freighter or tug, and the tenth ship is my all-powerful (Medusa) flagship.

This really really really isn't necessary now. If you are using a big fleet, then hauling cargo happens pretty naturally. If you are doing a solo fleet, then you don't need[\i] all the loot or even 5% of it. Its really only if you want everything now no matter what. Which I hope the game actively discourages even more.
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Megas

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Re: why is it that in starsector Losing != FUN!
« Reply #49 on: May 08, 2014, 07:34:18 PM »

Quote
This really really really isn't necessary now. If you are using a big fleet, then hauling cargo happens pretty naturally. If you are doing a solo fleet, then you don't need[\i] all the loot or even 5% of it. Its really only if you want everything now no matter what. Which I hope the game actively discourages even more.
I want the loot because there is no such thing as too much loot or whatever passes for money, especially if I want to buy out the shops of all of their ships (or several stacks of expensive top-tier weapons) then sacrificing the ships for more XP.  I can burn through ten million credits or more quickly enough.  All the more reason to kill everything with a Medusa instead of a Paragon or even Eagle so I have even more supplies leftover after repairs.  Greed is good in Starsector.

Keep in mind that all of that loot is from one battle.  ONE BATTLE!  If I fight another before I can deposit my spoils, I will overload unless I have even more cargo space, say 10,000+.

I have tried about 60 Logistics fleet of warships, similar to pre-0.6, and I will overload to 0% LR if I try to salvage and take everything from a defense fleet battle.
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Alex

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Re: why is it that in starsector Losing != FUN!
« Reply #50 on: May 08, 2014, 10:18:12 PM »

In terms of creating situations where there is absolutely no choice, there are mechanics problems atm.  Basically, fleet movements are pretty fast, and there is no warning given to the player that a given location is a target; if that's going to become a Thing, then players need to have good warning, or it won't be much fun.  Camping your Newbie Outpost and intercepting threats will be thrilling for about an hour, but after that, you're basically cutting yourself off from further adventures and expansion.  At a certain point, either your little empire's somewhat self-defending vs. anything that's not a huge threat, or you're stuck.  

Just wanted to chime in on this, with the caveat that it's still a bit early to say anything definitively: the way I'm thinking about this is that 1) the player would have ways to get a heads up about trouble (the event/intel system seems like a great fit for this) and 2) would be able to do things that either mitigate the damage or extend the time it takes for damage to an outpost to occur. Possibly, with some level of defenses, you might be mostly safe vs pirates (they might raid and steal some supplies, say, but not destroy the whole thing), but not so safe when a Hegemony task force comes calling. Otherwise, yeah, you're right - you'd just end up being tied to an outpost, unable to go anywhere for fear of it being wrecked.


Moreover... until it's not attractive to solo-kill fleets vs. using big disposable fleets, it's going to be the solution for practically all serious play.  I think I've got Vacuum just about cured of that problem, finally, but it took quite a bit of rebal to make it happen.  Vanilla's current balance remains at a point where I'd say that the frigate-fleet-of-doom approach is most efficient, followed by the Multi-Medusa Horde, and that is kind of worrying, because once again, the emphasis is on players flying solo, no losses, extremely conservative play.

I think this'll be largely fixed by a combination of toning combat skills down a bit and making AI fleets, especially big/important ones, have officers that use them. I doubt a frigate of doom would make much of a dent in an SDF if the SDF has 2-3 ships with Combat 10 officers on them, which isn't at all unreasonable lore-wise. In fact, it's unreasonable that it doesn't. We'll see, though. Definitely aware of this stuff being an issue, just need the right levers in place to start fixing it in a good long-term way. Same goes for ship availability, btw.
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JDCollie

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Re: why is it that in starsector Losing != FUN!
« Reply #51 on: May 09, 2014, 12:36:09 AM »

I think this'll be largely fixed by a combination of toning combat skills down a bit and making AI fleets, especially big/important ones, have officers that use them. I doubt a frigate of doom would make much of a dent in an SDF if the SDF has 2-3 ships with Combat 10 officers on them, which isn't at all unreasonable lore-wise. In fact, it's unreasonable that it doesn't. We'll see, though. Definitely aware of this stuff being an issue, just need the right levers in place to start fixing it in a good long-term way. Same goes for ship availability, btw.
I think the addition of our own officers will also go some way toward helping this. What prevents me from using other ships is the general belief that any allies I bring will probably get pretty roughed up. If player officers can a) have their own tailored skill trees (I.E., I can focus on tech knowing that my officers are beefy combat specialists) and b) act smarter than the standard A.I., then there is a decent chance I'll risk bringing in officer crewed ships. I know the second is a challenge, but it does make sense. An experience officer shouldn't just provide some statistical buffs, they should also have a much better idea than your average captain of when to strike, when to flank, and when to get out of dodge.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2014, 12:45:05 AM by JDCollie »
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xenoargh

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Re: why is it that in starsector Losing != FUN!
« Reply #52 on: May 09, 2014, 12:07:38 PM »

I had some thoughts about this last night, and came to a radical conclusion:

What if ships were immortal, like fighters?  I.E., they could die in the battle but not be perma-dead?

What if they were treated like jRPG characters- you don't have a Paragon, you have a White Wizard off your port bow?

Then the question wouldn't be avoiding losses, but what they cost, in time and supplies, to repair, and feed in between battles.  It'd be a very different game.

Then the choices would be about what size of battle you thought you could handle, and the strategic consequences of losing, rather than the hours down the drain of losing a Paragon kitted out with rare gear.  It'd take the sting out of losing weak ships and encourage more big-fleet play rather than avoid-all-expenses play, especially if the costs were balanced well.

Or, for another way to look at it, what if ships were treated like the Companions of Mount and Blade, rather than the (not-actually) expendable troops; what if the time investment in them wasn't going to get lost, period, and the question was mainly about whether you could do a mission with them, not whether you might lose one of them on said mission and have all the satisfaction of success soured by the loss of the next hour and a half of your life?

For newbies, especially newbies who haven't figured out the Storage Facility (i.e., the vast majority of people trying the game for the first time)... that might matter quite a lot, in terms of retention rates.

Anyhow, sorry for the heresy, but the more I explored that one, the more appealing it sounded, frankly.  The time-loss is probably the single biggest "ick" moment, especially for the newbies just trying to figure stuff out.  Heck, just making Frigates and Destroyers as immortal as Fighters would probably be enough to radically change how people play.
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ahrenjb

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Re: why is it that in starsector Losing != FUN!
« Reply #53 on: May 09, 2014, 12:19:51 PM »

I had some thoughts about this last night, and came to a radical conclusion:

What if ships were immortal, like fighters?  I.E., they could die in the battle but not be perma-dead?

What if they were treated like jRPG characters- you don't have a Paragon, you have a White Wizard off your port bow?

Then the question wouldn't be avoiding losses, but what they cost, in time and supplies, to repair, and feed in between battles.  It'd be a very different game.

Then the choices would be about what size of battle you thought you could handle, and the strategic consequences of losing, rather than the hours down the drain of losing a Paragon kitted out with rare gear.  It'd take the sting out of losing weak ships and encourage more big-fleet play rather than avoid-all-expenses play, especially if the costs were balanced well.

Or, for another way to look at it, what if ships were treated like the Companions of Mount and Blade, rather than the (not-actually) expendable troops; what if the time investment in them wasn't going to get lost, period, and the question was mainly about whether you could do a mission with them, not whether you might lose one of them on said mission and have all the satisfaction of success soured by the loss of the next hour and a half of your life?

For newbies, especially newbies who haven't figured out the Storage Facility (i.e., the vast majority of people trying the game for the first time)... that might matter quite a lot, in terms of retention rates.

Anyhow, sorry for the heresy, but the more I explored that one, the more appealing it sounded, frankly.  The time-loss is probably the single biggest "ick" moment, especially for the newbies just trying to figure stuff out.  Heck, just making Frigates and Destroyers as immortal as Fighters would probably be enough to radically change how people play.

If you read my (long) post on page three, I describe a possible mechanic that accomplishes exactly this. Using recovery and restoration of ship hulks and hulls as the explanation.
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xenoargh

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Re: why is it that in starsector Losing != FUN!
« Reply #54 on: May 09, 2014, 12:27:32 PM »

I hadn't gotten to it yet. 

First thing I expected was calls to have me burned at the stake; this is prime heresy.  But it might actually be a good idea, in terms of fun.  I think I'll put it into Vacuum and see what people think :)
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Uomoz

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Re: why is it that in starsector Losing != FUN!
« Reply #55 on: May 09, 2014, 12:50:55 PM »

I find that a great idea. There's no way one can really get attached to a ship in the current game. That said, ships should still be able to perma-die in bad situations. Acquisition cost should be >>>> the maintenance cost in that case.
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Megas

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Re: why is it that in starsector Losing != FUN!
« Reply #56 on: May 09, 2014, 01:00:19 PM »

Quote
What if ships were immortal, like fighters?  I.E., they could die in the battle but not be perma-dead?
I assume this applies only if you win.  If you lose the battle, I assume the enemy takes all the wrecks, yes?

For me, replacing top-tier gear (like needlers, plasma cannons) is harder than replacing most ships.  Even when max repair skill used to recover ships 100% of the time, that did not help in recovering weapons lost, or ships lost if I lost the battle.  It also prevented me from sacrificing unwanted ships (like tankers and Buffalo 2s) to speed up the XP gravy train.

It might marginalize fighters more since their main advantage is immortality.

Also, what happens when ships are destroyed?  Do they magically reappear after battle as a wreck like they do now?

Overall, I am unsure about the idea.
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ahrenjb

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Re: why is it that in starsector Losing != FUN!
« Reply #57 on: May 09, 2014, 01:37:53 PM »

I find that a great idea. There's no way one can really get attached to a ship in the current game. That said, ships should still be able to perma-die in bad situations. Acquisition cost should be >>>> the maintenance cost in that case.

Along the lines of risk and accountability, I absolutely agree that permanent loss needs to be a very real threat. That's why, under the following circumstances, you would give up any possibility of recovering your disabled ships.

- You lose the battle, by either being totally destroyed or initiating a retreat.
- The ships hull is completely destroyed by heavy fire after being disabled.
- You win, but decide to pursue fleeing enemy forces rather than letting them go and staying behind to begin recovery efforts.
- You win, but you have only small craft remaining, preventing you from salvaging larger ships.

I also think that if you're towing destroyed hulls around your burn speed and CR for surviving ships should be reduced.
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Thaago

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Re: why is it that in starsector Losing != FUN!
« Reply #58 on: May 09, 2014, 02:38:27 PM »

@xenoargh

Huh. Thought provoking. I'm honestly not sure how I feel about that.
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Tecrys

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Re: why is it that in starsector Losing != FUN!
« Reply #59 on: May 09, 2014, 02:48:57 PM »

I like Xenos idea a lot.

So, if a ship is disabled in a fight it would stay in your fleet as a hulk or disabled ship much like unconsious characters in JRPGs and to recover it from that condition you would have to spend something quite precious (a lot of credits, a ton of supplies maybe even exporience points) on a "Phenix Down" item.

Or, if you can't afford that right now, you would place the incapacitated ship in a storage until you can afford to "revive it".

Well, in the state the game is right now that kind of change would be wuite easily and quickly done. (Correct me if I am wrong with that)

Maybe that same system could even be extended to include other status effects that prevail after battle like poison for example, which could be named something like "infested with shredder nanites".

I guess you get the idea.
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