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Author Topic: Unlockable Codex Entries  (Read 5574 times)

Morrokain

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Unlockable Codex Entries
« on: April 19, 2014, 09:44:32 PM »

For the purposes of storytelling and surprising players. I think it would be a good idea to allow certain ships/weapons/factions/etc to only be shown in the codex when they have been "discovered" in game. You could even have different codex entries for ship variant strengths and weaknesses that are only shown when that ship is discovered.

To add to that, you could have a dialogue when meeting a fleet called (Scan Fleet) or something to gather necessary intel and information that could be stored in the codex. This would of course be considered rude at best, hostile at worst.

In other words, the codex gives a little too much away by having everything stored in it right away. I would rather it be starsector's pokedex lol
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MesoTroniK

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Re: Unlockable Codex Entries
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2014, 10:05:54 PM »

This would be extremely useful.

Linnis

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Re: Unlockable Codex Entries
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2014, 11:20:37 PM »

The story idea is nice. Say you get a officer, then you unlock a story, told to you by the officer.
Or you salvage a ship, and your techs find info stored in its batabanks and show to you.

great for advancing lore.
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Modest

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Re: Unlockable Codex Entries
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2014, 08:45:35 AM »

I also think it is nice idea to have certian things in codex locked. Especially for story telling purposes.
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Megas

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Re: Unlockable Codex Entries
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2014, 09:17:43 AM »

I am against this, as long as every ship and all equipment are available in missions.  Missions are part of the game (even though I cannot stand playing them without benefits from max Combat/Technology) as much as the campaign.

Codex is also handy for reference when player does not have encyclopedic knowledge of the game in his head, much like movelist for a fighting game.
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Morrokain

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Re: Unlockable Codex Entries
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2014, 07:04:35 PM »

I am against this, as long as every ship and all equipment are available in missions.  Missions are part of the game (even though I cannot stand playing them without benefits from max Combat/Technology) as much as the campaign.

Codex is also handy for reference when player does not have encyclopedic knowledge of the game in his head, much like movelist for a fighting game.
Thanks for the constructive criticism!

I see what you are saying but I disagree. The tutorial should cover the basics of how to play the game, and there definitely should be certain things that are obvious for a new player. But for the most part the codex itself is a lore based description of the origins of the object. The rest of the info in a codex entry is all readily available to the player in game when confronting a fleet or at a station. Remember simply coming into contact with a particular weapon or vessel would generally give you what you need to know about it in the codex and that info would stay available to players. They don't really need that info until then.

In fact, I would almost say the codex in its current form is a bit of an information overload to a new player who should really be focusing on the basics at first. It would be more beneficial to be fed that information as it comes and as the player finds it useful rather than upfront.

As far as missions are concerned, they were originally there as a way to test the combat system and give us beta players something to sink our teeth into. As far as I know they were never meant to be a part of the game itself, simply a demo of how the game's combat worked. This is similar to how capital ships currently are in the campaign. They are way more accessible than they probably will be later down the line.

But, in case I am wrong about that, there is a simple fix to that problem. Just make the missions unlock in difficulty tiers like how the old fashioned rts used to be. Again this would prevent new players from biting off more than they could chew until they have gone through easier missions. Unlocking new missions would unlock new codex entries depending on the ships/weapons involved.

Imo this feature makes sense from both a technical and storytelling perspective by preventing information overload and confusion to the new player and by removing spoilers of certain ships and potential boss-like encounters and rewarding player exploration by gaining tidbits of lore and information (potentially getting access to new tech).
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Metroidude

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Re: Unlockable Codex Entries
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2014, 10:03:48 AM »

I'm a new-ish player, so here's my opinion on this. I'll be examining what I've noticed from gameplay, and its relation to whether or not this is a good idea.

Please know that I mean nothing personal by this; I'm just analyzing a hypothetical reform, not criticizing you personally. I think it's great that you are coming up with ideas.

I'll label them for easier reference of ideas; and to prevent you from being overwhelmed, I'll be explaining how I came to the conclusion of each point inside the corresponding spoiler tags.

In examination of the benefits of how the Codex works now, I have 3 points.

1) The Codex's original intention.
Spoiler
I believe that the original intended purpose of the Codex was as a complete reference tool for all in-game entities; how else could you learn about their statistics?
It provides a great graphical interface for each ship's parameters and abilities, and is currently the best and easiest way of knowing what a ship is like. It's nice to have it built in to the game, and not having to consult a wiki every time you want to know how a ship performs.

There are also missions, and a codex outside the context of the singleplayer campaign.

One doesn't normally read an encyclopedia like this: but if you do, more power to you.

When thinking about changing it, we must keep it's original purpose in mind.
[close]

2) Starsector has a little bit of a learning curve: the Codex helps ease it.
Spoiler
The Codex actually helped me as a new player. A lot.

Starsector has a little bit of a learning curve; You're just thrown into the galaxy to go where you please. But this can be a little overwhelming at first.
It didn't take long for me to figure out to avoid the big fleets, and pick on the little fleets that I knew I could defeat to gain resources.

The Codex allowed me to look up what a ship can do without having to meet it in battle. It is what let me know if it were a little fleet I could defeat, or if it was going to annihilate me (because the size of the bubble is determined by the number of ships in the fleet, not the power of it.) I knew the parameters of everything that existed; It allowed me to alleviate a lot of the learning curve if I wanted to, by knowing the capabilities of ships without having to engage them in battle first.

It acted much like a wiki or a guidebook, providing stats and useful information on every ship class and weapon.

This directly means that I would be able to compare the hypothetical enemy's ship to my own, and make an estimate of how well I would do when pitted against him.
[close]

3) The Codex fits into the "storyline continuum."
Spoiler
In a fictional universe, you have to assure that entities adhere to the established boundaries.
The Codex makes sense in the setting: a future where space travel is not only possible, but common.
But let's face it: Right now, Starsector has no story. It may have lore, but no story that the player is involved in.

Let's compare the Codex to a Pokedex. In Pokemon, the Pokedex is actually used as a plot device. Professor Oak (or whoever) tasks you with filling it and coming back to him, this is essentially a secondary objective to becoming the Pokemon master by defeating the Elite Four. The Pokedex is essentially a log of the Pokemon you encounter.

The same cannot be said about the Codex. You're not tasked by anyone to fill it. It's used as a tool, not an objective. It serves no purpose in the story, because none exists yet.
[close]

So in examination of the hypothetical change, I have 3 points.

1) Using a "discovered" codex causes annoyances, inconsistencies, and is illogical for how the game is now.
Spoiler
If we change, it will considerably harm the Codex's ability to be an efficacious catalog. What good is an encyclopedia if you have to discover what it would say before you can read it?

New players would be forced to battle ships they're completely unfamiliar with, and making them manually encounter every ship class if they want to learn about it. While it would be less overwhelming, the Codex is an encyclopedia/reference, not a book to be read from front to back.

Every time you start a new game, you'd have to fill out your Codex if you wanted to see the stats of a ship. This would be quite annoying for experienced players, because they know what ships exist yet they can't look up its exact stats.

A major annoyance would be not being able to fill up your "Codex" unless you want to make the entire galaxy hostile towards you.
He said scanning would be "rude at best, hostile at worst."
Right now, there's no way to improve relations: only degrade them. Once you've scanned them, the whole faction will be hostile towards you.

The shipyard is a major inconsistency. What if you want to look up how good a ship is before you battle it? Would the shop allow you to view it before you've discovered it, or would it remain blank? It makes sense that the shopkeeper would allow you to view its stats before you buy it, even if you've never encountered it in space before.

Another inconsistency is the Codex in the main menu. Would this be all ships you've ever encountered, or just the ones you've found in your campaign? What's to prevent a player from just going back into the main menu and viewing the ship from there, even if they haven't logged it in their save yet?

Right now, the game is a sandbox. There is no linearity. Limiting the scope of the Codex immediately would make no sense, because the rest of the world isn't limited at the beginning.
[close]

2) There is no storyline to advance by limiting the Codex; even if there were, the current Codex makes sense
Spoiler
Like I said earlier, Starsector has no story. What good is changing the Codex to benefit something that doesn't exist yet?

Maybe if there is a story of some sort in the future, there could be a logbook or something that you gain through methods mentioned earlier. Or battle tactics, or something. But not the Codex. The Codex provides the stats for a ship with a little description; it should stay this way.

Even in there were a story, it would make sense that the captain could load his ship's computer with data from ship manufacturers in preparation before he took off. What kind of idiot would just take off blindly into space, especially after spending a couple thousand credits on a spaceship?
[close]

3) There are some possible benefits from having a Codex of this nature.
Spoiler
One obvious benefit would be a Codex that supports the possibility of a linear storyline in a non-linear sandbox world (similar to the way EV Nova did storylines.) But right now, there is no such storyline, so changing for something that doesn't exist yet doesn't make sense. Maybe once the story is completed it will.

Another benefit would be players not feeling "overwhelmed" with the amount of content at first; but this is decreased somewhat by the fact that they won't have an encyclopedia in which to refer to.
[close]

In conclusion, I'd say that this idea may benefit a storyline at some point in time if the details are done correctly. But right now, the current Codex is far superior to a "log" style Codex and supports the sandbox-style gameplay of the campaign.
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Aereto

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Re: Unlockable Codex Entries
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2014, 12:53:18 PM »

Metroidude has the most convincing counterpoint I have seen.

And to add, a spacefaring captain would need to have the codex by default, where pirates, military, and mercenaries alike come with baseline data necessary to deal with, especially if a ship belonging to a faction falls to the wrong hands (or hands prepared to put their knuckles upon your face). Hull and weapon profiles one can recognize become a significant factor for freighters, escorts, military, and raiders when gauging opposition.
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Morrokain

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Re: Unlockable Codex Entries
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2014, 07:53:18 PM »

Thank you Metroidude for your constructive feedback! And thanks for all the supporters of the idea too!

Ok I'll bite  :D

*stretches before engaging in debate*

I will counter point your argument point by point as you have done. Thank you for being so thorough with your thoughts!

Quote
1) The Codex's original intention.

I believe that the original intended purpose of the Codex was as a complete reference tool for all in-game entities; how else could you learn about their statistics?
It provides a great graphical interface for each ship's parameters and abilities, and is currently the best and easiest way of knowing what a ship is like. It's nice to have it built in to the game, and not having to consult a wiki every time you want to know how a ship performs.

There are also missions, and a codex outside the context of the singleplayer campaign.

One doesn't normally read an encyclopedia like this: but if you do, more power to you.

When thinking about changing it, we must keep it's original purpose in mind.

While perhaps you can make an argument that there should be a reference encyclopedia and I wouldn't disagree, there are two things that come to mind here. The first is a misconception of the original intentions of the idea. I am not advocating that you should start the game tabula rasa without ANY information in the codex that would be relevant to a new captain. Most pirate ships, common military ships and many civilian ships would already be listed there like in real life. So the starting fleets you encounter would be easily available to look at and size up. It would actually be easier since you wouldn't have to sift through so many entries and most things would pull up far easier.

The second is that, in my opinion, a reference encyclopedia should not even be necessary as long as the tutorial is sound enough to get the player started in an easy and free flow manner. The fact that you are using it speaks more to the current lack of tutorial and presentation of the games mechanics and the need to use an encyclopedia as a crutch to get you through. Alex himself has addressed this issue where the difficulty of new players stems from lack of clear information being presented to them while they are doing what they are doing.

So the encyclopedia part of it is then moreso for advanced players wanting a reference book to compare stats and keep track of things. In this case I agree and my vision of the codex certainly fulfills that role.

 
Quote
2) Starsector has a little bit of a learning curve: the Codex helps ease it.

The Codex actually helped me as a new player. A lot.

Starsector has a little bit of a learning curve; You're just thrown into the galaxy to go where you please. But this can be a little overwhelming at first.
It didn't take long for me to figure out to avoid the big fleets, and pick on the little fleets that I knew I could defeat to gain resources.

The Codex allowed me to look up what a ship can do without having to meet it in battle. It is what let me know if it were a little fleet I could defeat, or if it was going to annihilate me (because the size of the bubble is determined by the number of ships in the fleet, not the power of it.) I knew the parameters of everything that existed; It allowed me to alleviate a lot of the learning curve if I wanted to, by knowing the capabilities of ships without having to engage them in battle first.

It acted much like a wiki or a guidebook, providing stats and useful information on every ship class and weapon.

This directly means that I would be able to compare the hypothetical enemy's ship to my own, and make an estimate of how well I would do when pitted against him.

I touched on this a little bit in the last point, but I would like to elaborate that again an encyclopedia should not be the tool here and rather a better way of sizing up an opponent. I want to put it this way. In an action game, or an mmo, or an rts, do you pause the game and look at an encyclopedia reference to size up your opponent before you engage him every time? You certainly shouldn't have to. Thats because the game uses other cues to tell you that information in a streamlined way. A level number relative to your own, the size of the enemy, its color, and myriad other indicators tell you, at a glance, roughly how hard of a fight you are in for. Constantly researching you enemy prior to combat breaks the flow of the game and becomes tedious until you have mastered the knowledge.

So what then, is the codex good for? This brings me to your final point.

Quote
3) The Codex fits into the "storyline continuum."

In a fictional universe, you have to assure that entities adhere to the established boundaries.
The Codex makes sense in the setting: a future where space travel is not only possible, but common.
But let's face it: Right now, Starsector has no story. It may have lore, but no story that the player is involved in.

Let's compare the Codex to a Pokedex. In Pokemon, the Pokedex is actually used as a plot device. Professor Oak (or whoever) tasks you with filling it and coming back to him, this is essentially a secondary objective to becoming the Pokemon master by defeating the Elite Four. The Pokedex is essentially a log of the Pokemon you encounter.

The same cannot be said about the Codex. You're not tasked by anyone to fill it. It's used as a tool, not an objective. It serves no purpose in the story, because none exists yet.

So in examination of the hypothetical change, I have 3 points.

Why would you need such detailed information then? You could simply then replace the pokedex with 12/150 that climbs to 150 as you catch more pokemon and give a checkmark next to each name and skip all the other unnecessary coding and artwork. Thats because the pokedex also served another purpose. To bring character and life to the pokemon by giving a brief account of their habits and nature as well as their stats. It was rewarding the sense of exploration to catch something new and find out its moves and more about it. If I had that all in front of me at the start it would have been far less rewarding to capture one.

Quote
1) Using a "discovered" codex causes annoyances, inconsistencies, and is illogical for how the game is now.

If we change, it will considerably harm the Codex's ability to be an efficacious catalog. What good is an encyclopedia if you have to discover what it would say before you can read it?

New players would be forced to battle ships they're completely unfamiliar with, and making them manually encounter every ship class if they want to learn about it. While it would be less overwhelming, the Codex is an encyclopedia/reference, not a book to be read from front to back.

Every time you start a new game, you'd have to fill out your Codex if you wanted to see the stats of a ship. This would be quite annoying for experienced players, because they know what ships exist yet they can't look up its exact stats.

A major annoyance would be not being able to fill up your "Codex" unless you want to make the entire galaxy hostile towards you.
He said scanning would be "rude at best, hostile at worst."
Right now, there's no way to improve relations: only degrade them. Once you've scanned them, the whole faction will be hostile towards you.

The shipyard is a major inconsistency. What if you want to look up how good a ship is before you battle it? Would the shop allow you to view it before you've discovered it, or would it remain blank? It makes sense that the shopkeeper would allow you to view its stats before you buy it, even if you've never encountered it in space before.

Another inconsistency is the Codex in the main menu. Would this be all ships you've ever encountered, or just the ones you've found in your campaign? What's to prevent a player from just going back into the main menu and viewing the ship from there, even if they haven't logged it in their save yet?

Right now, the game is a sandbox. There is no linearity. Limiting the scope of the Codex immediately would make no sense, because the rest of the world isn't limited at the beginning.

Again this is a misinterpretation of the idea. You would not be required to scan something to learn about it and catalog it. That was a way to learn something more in depth for use in special circumstances. Such as knowing what weapons it carried to try and steal. Or maybe a precious commodity or important person. This is the same reason why it would sometimes be considered hostile. Though it could be used to learn more about a type of asteroid that would then be cataloged, but not be a hostile act. It adds depth to the game beyond combat.

Yes finding a ship in a shipyard would give you a codex entry and would be another way of finding information outside of engaging in combat. The codex on the main menu would only show those discovered before or simply be removed to make things easier.

The game is a sandbox yes, but a discovered codex doesn't change that. It simply gives it a reward to going off the beaten path and explore because new codex entries are valuable information. The current codex actually stifles exploration because it gives you access to everything up front and there is no reason to work for it.

The world is limited up front. You can't solo a defense fleet right off the bat. You have to work up to it. The is just another element that can be explored and give increased depth.

Quote
2) There is no storyline to advance by limiting the Codex; even if there were, the current Codex makes sense

Like I said earlier, Starsector has no story. What good is changing the Codex to benefit something that doesn't exist yet?

Maybe if there is a story of some sort in the future, there could be a logbook or something that you gain through methods mentioned earlier. Or battle tactics, or something. But not the Codex. The Codex provides the stats for a ship with a little description; it should stay this way.

Even in there were a story, it would make sense that the captain could load his ship's computer with data from ship manufacturers in preparation before he took off. What kind of idiot would just take off blindly into space, especially after spending a couple thousand credits on a spaceship?

Again you would have information, just not all the information in the game, leaving spaces to expand the story into new territories outside known space or technology. The base of the story is about a lost empire and fading knowledge of technology. It simply doesn't make sense that you would have a codex detailing every ship weapon and object in that type of world. It would in fact indicate the opposite and part of the game's open ended plot would be to rediscover it.

The point of this idea is two fold:

1) It promotes exploration and gives more depth, purpose and life into the game while creating a device to articulate the story, atmosphere, setting and background in a non linear way.


2) It really gives modders a way to introduce new things into the game without letting the cat out of the bag so to speak by letting players see every ship, weapon and object up front.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2014, 08:08:22 PM by Morrokain »
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Metroidude

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Re: Unlockable Codex Entries
« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2014, 03:24:12 PM »

I was going to post a huge point-by-point analysis and rebut your points, but there was no save function on the forum so I lost it :(
Maybe sometime soon I'll be inspired enough to write it again :P
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Aereto

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Re: Unlockable Codex Entries
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2014, 09:15:59 PM »

I was going to post a huge point-by-point analysis and rebut your points, but there was no save function on the forum so I lost it :(
Maybe sometime soon I'll be inspired enough to write it again :P
Oh well... this feels like a point-counterpoint manuscript between two parties. Just bringing that up here...  :-\
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xenoargh

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Re: Unlockable Codex Entries
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2014, 10:48:39 PM »

I sat and thought about this for a while.  I've decided to keep it short and sweet.

With reluctance, I don't think this would be a good fit for SS. 

The Codex was designed to be an open book; it should stay that way.  This is a game where knowing what's in the Pokedex doesn't change much; it's about finding the Pokemon and catching them- the fun part- rather than "did I miss one in that area?  better look that up online", which is not fun.  I didn't think that was a good thing in Pokemon and I don't think it's a good thing in SS.

If anything, I want it to have more information about the Factions and all that, so that players who browse it can absorb a lot of backstory fluff and understand the deeper SS universe.

To put it another way... I have 120'ish pilotable ships in Vacuum, and roughly the same number of weapons, many of which have unique effects.  If I made it harder to figure out what they all are and made it harder to get them, it'd just slow down the gameplay without adding an iota of real fun.
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Megas

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Re: Unlockable Codex Entries
« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2014, 09:12:53 AM »

Unlockable codex entries would also give the need for an (un)official Starsector wiki that would show the unlockable content for people who want to know (and are annoyed at the idea).  I like it that the Codex shows much of what I want to know without the need to visit an ad-infested wiki.
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Morrokain

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Re: Unlockable Codex Entries
« Reply #13 on: May 02, 2014, 10:33:00 PM »

Well at the end of the day, even if it is not a good fit for vanilla starsector (though I am not convinced  ;) ) I would still like it to be a moddable option. Because myself and I feel many other modders would have a very good use for it.
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Metroidude

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Re: Unlockable Codex Entries
« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2014, 07:05:46 PM »

Well at the end of the day, even if it is not a good fit for vanilla starsector (though I am not convinced  ;) ) I would still like it to be a moddable option. Because myself and I feel many other modders would have a very good use for it.

Oh, definitely. I'm opposed to it being in vanilla Starsector, but I still agree that there is no drawback to allowing this as a modding possibility. Then it'd be contextually advantageous or disadvantageous depending on the mod's nature.
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