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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: Starsector 0.65a (Released) Patch Notes  (Read 257908 times)

Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.65a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #135 on: September 26, 2014, 02:07:11 PM »

Various assorted comments:

Doubled XP gain sounds fun, although I guess this was done because player cannot fight as much as before due to various reasons.  I hope killing everything that moves remains a viable playstyle - that is fun.

Economy only a means to an end; that is, to get the ships, weapons, and food needed to fight and wage war for the power gained from leveling, which leads to superior performance in action-filled arcade-y combat - the real point of the game (for me, at least).


Only one tug per ship.  That means Atlas will not be so great anymore, at least until Navigation 10 and Augmented Engines are available.

I agree with Midnight Kitsune's concerns.  Navigation 10 (and Mechanical Engineering 7 for Augmented Engines) feels required, at least for those who want to use ships bigger than frigates.  Any fleet moving slower than burn 6 is too slow.  Being unable to catch and destroy common scouts and raiders cuts off a valuable source of experience and income.  Yes, such fleets are not worth much individually, but there are a lot of them, and they add up.

I have relied Oxen to keep my speed up to 6 or 7.  Without them, I will stick to frigate swarms until endgame, when I can afford Navigation 10 and more Leadership.


No more burn speed on Unstable Injectors sounds painful for Easy start, if the Mule remains.  Burn speed 5 is not fast enough - I will sell the Mule (but keep the Medusa) for something faster.

Unstable Injector will still be highly desired by most ships for the speed boost in combat, if Augmented Engines is not available.


Doubled prices for ships could make boarding desirable ships more rewarding and/or useful.

Smaller pursuit sounds good.  I almost always keep Hyperion in my fleet solely for pursuit battles.  Anything else felt too long before something took damage - so much that I auto-resolved all pursuits if survivors were not a problem.


Quote
You know, even if this is technically a nerf, it makes the Wolf so much more fun to play. The reasoning behind the change was to remove the control conflict that having omni shields on a ship with a significant portion of its firepower on front-facing hardpoints, which is especially an issue for frigates (and other ships that turn quickly).
I can agree that this is a nerf.  I got used to omni-shields with frigates (that lack 360 shields).  It is easier to defend against missiles with omni-shields when PD is weak or not enough.


Quote
I don't think it's a death spiral if to enter it you have to literally make everyone in the Sector mad at you, and not just a little mad, but "we will not rest until you're gone from this world" mad.

In gameplay terms, it should add more tangible differences between different playstyles. Smuggler? You can trade with pirates. Bounty hunter? Maybe if you're careful to walk the line, but probably not.
What about "Eliminator" or "Overlord", that is one who wants to fight everyone until their factions are eliminated and the whole sector becomes his, like in Risk?  I would like to make my own faction (or hijack an existing faction and make it mine if creating my new faction is impossible) and destroy the rest.  After all, one cannot rule the sector with competition (i.e., Hegemony/Tri-Tachyon getting in the way).  I am sure all factions would view such an upstart, after revealing himself, as an existential threat.


Re: High Intensity Laser
I think high-intensity laser needs more damage.  For the same OP, autopulse laser outperforms it in every way except range, due to initial spike damage and hard flux.  Aside from theme configurations (such as all-beam Paragon), I cannot think of any time I want to use high-intensity laser over autopulse laser.

Re: Missiles
Do medium pods still have twelve missiles, or were they doubled to twenty-four?  Four shot salvos will burn through twelve missiles very fast, and the idea of blowing 10 OP for a three-shot feels like a waste.
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Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.65a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #136 on: September 26, 2014, 02:30:22 PM »

On a general note, the specifics of what burn level is required to catch what types of fleets have changed considerably. One of the (as-yet-unmentioned) changes is that most pirate fleets are made up of larger numbers of inferior ships (i.e. a skin with some negative hullmods, such as "compromised armor" or "degraded engines" - conceptually, ships decommissioned due to irreparable battle damage, or simply defective autofactory output). Many of these ships have a penalty to burn level. So, any balance concerns based on relative burn levels - well, I wouldn't call all of them invalid, but basing them on current values certainly is.

Smaller pursuit sounds good.  I almost always keep Hyperion in my fleet solely for pursuit battles.  Anything else felt too long before something took damage - so much that I auto-resolved all pursuits if survivors were not a problem.

Yeah, it feels a lot better now. If you're pursuing with decently fast ships (i.e. a Wolf), it doesn't take long at all until ships are in firing range of each other.


What about "Eliminator" or "Overlord", that is one who wants to fight everyone until their factions are eliminated and the whole sector becomes his, like in Risk?  I would like to make my own faction (or hijack an existing faction and make it mine if creating my new faction is impossible) and destroy the rest.  After all, one cannot rule the sector with competition (i.e., Hegemony/Tri-Tachyon getting in the way).  I am sure all factions would view such an upstart, after revealing himself, as an existential threat.

Well, since you can't create outposts or control a faction at this point...


Re: Missiles
Do medium pods still have twelve missiles, or were they doubled to twenty-four?  Four shot salvos will burn through twelve missiles very fast, and the idea of blowing 10 OP for a three-shot feels like a waste.

Oh, but what a three-shot.
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Aeson

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Re: Starsector 0.65a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #137 on: September 26, 2014, 10:51:09 PM »

Sounds so great.

I am also salivating at the Lasher / Wolf frontal shield change and the impact pilums (pila?) are going to have on their rear ends.

Don't know why that stands out amongst all the other things, but it does :)

Adds interest to the choice of frigate, I guess. At the minute Lashers and Wolves are a safe option in so many ways.

You know, even if this is technically a nerf, it makes the Wolf so much more fun to play. The reasoning behind the change was to remove the control conflict that having omni shields on a ship with a significant portion of its firepower on front-facing hardpoints, which is especially an issue for frigates (and other ships that turn quickly).
Personally, I feel that omni shields have the least issues when the guns you're trying to aim are fixed. Yes, paying attention to where the omni shield is takes your attention away from where exactly the fixed forward firing guns are pointing, but on the other hand, dragging the omni shield to the other side of the ship to intercept some missiles or absorb fire from a cruiser while you finish off something that overloaded doesn't screw up the aim of a fixed gun all that much. It's the player-controlled turreted guns that have major control conflicts with omni shields, as both the turrets and the shield projector aim at the mouse cursor, and I not infrequently want my shield facing somewhere other than at my current preferred target. Missiles, whether fixed or turreted, can avoid the aiming/shield coverage conflict relatively easily if you remember to set a target, although it's still a bit annoying to have the turret facing the wrong way, but direct-fire turreted weapons cannot.
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Histidine

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Re: Starsector 0.65a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #138 on: September 27, 2014, 09:12:55 AM »

Do you still get the speed penalty for harrying a fleet without engaging it?
If you enter a pursuit battle with an enemy fleet and some/all of them get away, do you get slowed down?
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Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.65a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #139 on: September 27, 2014, 09:27:12 AM »

Personally, I feel that omni shields have the least issues when the guns you're trying to aim are fixed. Yes, paying attention to where the omni shield is takes your attention away from where exactly the fixed forward firing guns are pointing, but on the other hand, dragging the omni shield to the other side of the ship to intercept some missiles or absorb fire from a cruiser while you finish off something that overloaded doesn't screw up the aim of a fixed gun all that much. It's the player-controlled turreted guns that have major control conflicts with omni shields, as both the turrets and the shield projector aim at the mouse cursor, and I not infrequently want my shield facing somewhere other than at my current preferred target. Missiles, whether fixed or turreted, can avoid the aiming/shield coverage conflict relatively easily if you remember to set a target, although it's still a bit annoying to have the turret facing the wrong way, but direct-fire turreted weapons cannot.

Hmm, I see what you're saying, at least partially. I think for me, it's different as I tend to keep most weapons on autofire and manage that instead of manually firing, so with a ship like the Enforcer, the mouse is mostly free for shield use. If you prefer manual control, you can still keep the manual group on autofire and quickly switch to another group if you need to shield elsewhere but want to keep firing.

As far as "not screwing up the aim of a fixed gun", I think that's only true for larger ships firing on larger targets. If you're in a frigate - or firing at one - moving the mouse away to shield vs something is pretty much going to make you miss.

Do you still get the speed penalty for harrying a fleet without engaging it?
If you enter a pursuit battle with an enemy fleet and some/all of them get away, do you get slowed down?

No and no. They still get a speedup, though.
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Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.65a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #140 on: September 27, 2014, 09:50:58 AM »

Quote
If you're in a frigate - or firing at one - moving the mouse away to shield vs something is pretty much going to make you miss.
Not necessarily; because skilled frigate (and Medusa) flagships are fast, player can approach a target via strafing (instead of head-on) and be mostly assured that most incoming attacks from that target will miss (because enemy cannot lead shots at all).  While the player drifts laterally and shoots, he can use the mouse to control the shield to block shots coming from elsewhere.
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Zibywan

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Re: Starsector 0.65a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #141 on: September 27, 2014, 02:22:51 PM »

I'm surprised the idea of gaining XP for trading enterprises hasn't been thrown around yet. A trade captain can be experience, but may not have been in even a tenth of the battles a combat cruiser's captain would have been in.

If I built a fleet around trading I would expect my character to gain quiet a bit of knowledge about how to properly load my ships, interact with patrols, barter, spot new and more profitable routes, and maintain optimal ship conditions for travel.

Any chance we will be able to gain character XP for buying/selling goods, bringing supplies to a planet/station/colony in peril (having an event), or for some other trade actions?

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Aeson

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Re: Starsector 0.65a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #142 on: September 27, 2014, 02:27:52 PM »

I think for me, it's different as I tend to keep most weapons on autofire and manage that instead of manually firing, so with a ship like the Enforcer, the mouse is mostly free for shield use. If you prefer manual control, you can still keep the manual group on autofire and quickly switch to another group if you need to shield elsewhere but want to keep firing.
The only weapons that I normally keep control over are missiles and high-flux weapons like antimatter blasters. Mostly because I'd rather control the omni shield than aim and fire the weapons, especially since the computer cannot do the former and does well enough with the latter. For similar reasons, I don't bother with mouse strafing. I find that I can maneuver the ship well enough with the keyboard that giving up the ability to redirect the omni shield to aim the ship at the cursor isn't worthwhile. If the mouse strafing control conflict is what you're worried about, maybe it'd be good to make the Q and E strafing act similarly to cursor strafing if you have a target selected.
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Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.65a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #143 on: September 27, 2014, 03:48:22 PM »

Quote
If the mouse strafing control conflict is what you're worried about, maybe it'd be good to make the Q and E strafing act similarly to cursor strafing if you have a target selected.
No!  I rely on the current implementation of Q and E for my superior combat performance.  Q and E work just like strafing in a classic FPS like Doom.

The weapons I keep on manual control vary by ship for me.  For some, anything that is not PD or anti-fighter gets put on manual.  For others, I let computer do the work unless I need to attack beyond weapon range.  In case of Enforcer, I load all five medium ballistic mounts with maulers and needlers, and put them all on manual so I can focus-fire all of them for maximum damage, when I want.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2014, 03:57:45 PM by Megas »
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Gothars

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Re: Starsector 0.65a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #144 on: September 27, 2014, 04:38:34 PM »

I'm surprised the idea of gaining XP for trading enterprises hasn't been thrown around yet.

It kinda has been, but maybe the answer has changed by now :) :

Question: how is experience gain going to be handled with trading? I feel like you need some experience to keep it balanced against a pure combat style, but at the same time that does lead to suddenly knowing how to mount extra guns on all your ships because you made mad moolah selling supplies. Some skills make sense (yeah if you spend a lot of time flying around you should be able to increase your burn drive) but others (mah macrosse missile massacre just got even better!) definitely don't. Curious to see how you balance it

Good question. I don't have a good answer quite yet. I will say that I don't feel strange about XP being used to improve areas the XP wasn't gained through though, that's just how this sort of system works. Systems that force you to use skills (or at least areas of skills) to improve them have their own problems.
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Hopelessnoob

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Re: Starsector 0.65a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #145 on: September 27, 2014, 05:51:14 PM »

Because I'm now worried Gothars will close this thread :P

Are there any questions you expected us to ask about these patch notes that hasn't been asked?
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Sabotsas

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Re: Starsector 0.65a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #146 on: September 27, 2014, 10:53:45 PM »

Would there be a way of making the shield being AI-controlled (like setting it to AI, same as auto-fire for guns)? As a result you could focus on aiming. Maybe the shield AI could be improved or even the whole function could be unlocked via skill points.
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Midnight Kitsune

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Re: Starsector 0.65a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #147 on: September 28, 2014, 08:23:55 AM »

Would there be a way of making the shield being AI-controlled (like setting it to AI, same as auto-fire for guns)? As a result you could focus on aiming. Maybe the shield AI could be improved or even the whole function could be unlocked via skill points.
Sadly no. This and variations of it have been asked many  time and the answer has always been no
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Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.65a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #148 on: September 28, 2014, 08:42:46 AM »

I'm surprised the idea of gaining XP for trading enterprises hasn't been thrown around yet.

It kinda has been, but maybe the answer has changed by now :) :

Question: how is experience gain going to be handled with trading? I feel like you need some experience to keep it balanced against a pure combat style, but at the same time that does lead to suddenly knowing how to mount extra guns on all your ships because you made mad moolah selling supplies. Some skills make sense (yeah if you spend a lot of time flying around you should be able to increase your burn drive) but others (mah macrosse missile massacre just got even better!) definitely don't. Curious to see how you balance it

Good question. I don't have a good answer quite yet. I will say that I don't feel strange about XP being used to improve areas the XP wasn't gained through though, that's just how this sort of system works. Systems that force you to use skills (or at least areas of skills) to improve them have their own problems.

Right now, there's XP gain for trading profitably (i.e. not for just selling salvage etc), but I haven't had much of a chance to test how well this works out.


Are there any questions you expected us to ask about these patch notes that hasn't been asked?

Nothing comes to mind. There were one or two things at first but then they came up :)
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Hopelessnoob

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Re: Starsector 0.65a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #149 on: September 28, 2014, 09:24:22 AM »

So if i'm trading profitably but I also pick up an atlas kill and a lot of loot from that Do I gain XP for the stuff I had originally or do i gain XP for the stuff and the salvage? Can the game differentiate if its all in the same stack?
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