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Author Topic: 3D(-ish) vanilla sprites  (Read 12579 times)

kazi

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3D(-ish) vanilla sprites
« on: February 09, 2014, 01:51:12 AM »

Went through and "improved" the vanilla sprites as practice. The goal was to make these look more 3D.

Before/After
Apogee
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Condor
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Mule
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Venture
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Some FAQs:
Q: I like the vanilla sprites. Your versions suck.
A: Don't download this mod then.

Q: How are you choosing which ships to update?
A: Some need help more than others.

Q: It looks like you've chosen purple as the new high tech color. I don't like purple.
A: Maybe it doesn't like you either.

Q: Aside from the glowy bits, I can't tell the difference between some of these.
A: There's a bunch of subtle lighting changes that make these ships "pop" a lot more ingame (a lot more than just a levels adjustment). Here's a screenshot to demonstrate...
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Q: Where's the download?
A: It'll pop up here when I get a few more ships fixed up and ready.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2014, 06:45:54 PM by kazi »
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Sabaton

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Re: Better Vanilla Sprites
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2014, 04:12:19 AM »

 Between this and Helmuts most wanted sheet, vanilla sprites have been getting a lot of love recently.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2014, 04:13:58 AM by Sabaton »
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Uomoz

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Re: Better Vanilla Sprites
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2014, 05:42:27 AM »

Can... I....?
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FasterThanSleepyfish

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Re: Better Vanilla Sprites
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2014, 08:00:15 AM »

Funny thing, I was PMing Alex about this "improvement"  stuff when you first posted your changed Apogee on the SJT. He brought up some interesting points on how the sprites are fine as they are.


Quote from Alex:
"I think I actually prefer the original, stylistically... but then I really like pixel art, and having a lot of shadow takes away from that. If you look at something like the Odyssey, it's got a lot of shadows too, but it's done in a slightly different, smoother style to begin with. The Apogee is more pixel-y. Adding more shadow to it makes it perhaps more consistent with something like the Odyssey, but, imo, takes away from the sprite itself a bit."

As you can see, the amazing pixel work is the main reason why Alex thinks the ships are just fine right now (duh). Changing the sprites in-game with shadows and colors would sap away the potentially finer details and overall themes, respectively.

My argument is that the your ships, while pretty, are cartoony and saturated. While this is not a bad thing, a player might find his/herself overloaded with bright colors in a battle situation, as if there were not a lot of things to keep in mind already. That's the beauty of vanilla sprites, because they are pretty enough to impress a veiwer with their intricate details and design features, while still being mild enough for the player to distinguish the various UI's, enemy missiles, fighters and other game features that are supposed to "pop out" more. Once again, the sprites you made are impressive, but they are missing a potential function that allows them to be easily sortable in the player's  "important combat events". (This was the one of the reasons I felt SPAZ was kinda hard to play, with too many bright things in a small area the attracted attentio, yet were not too important.)
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David

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Re: Better Vanilla Sprites
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2014, 09:43:21 AM »

Upfront: I totally dig people messing around with the sprites.


But for fun I'll take a minute to explain why I've taken the approach I have with Starsector, given, of course, my respect for modders altering their game experience to fit their own aesthetic desire.

What it looks like you've done, in broad strokes, is increase contrast, saturation, and some details. These are all qualities that make images look appealing; take any image, pump the curves, saturation, and sharpen, and it somehow looks more awesome.

My concern in terms of art direction when working on high detail sprites in Starsector is that I believe it's possible to go too far with all of that. If the base hull sprite itself has more contrast, detail, and colour than the weapons and weapon effects, then some very important information may be lost to the player, especially the new player who is untrained in identifying which parts are important. Further, ships themselves can devolve into a noisy block of ultra-high contrast details which work less well when zoomed out and don't convey a cohesive identify.

An artist named Niklas Jansson (among many others) has been fairly influential on my thinking and, helpfully, he's written a bit about his take on spaceship design here: http://androidarts.com/spaceships/spaceship_design.htm

Of particular interest:

Quote

As a concept artist, I'm impressed when someone have managed to put several key elements into a design with as few superfluous "glue" pieces as possible. It's like killing the desired birds in a flock with a single stone by carefully calculating ricochets. To me, someone can be great at painting, but still not a genius because they use too many stones and only hit some random and common birds anyways.

Sometimes when I do a design, I find myself filling the remaining last few areas/surfaces with irrelevant nonsense and greeble, and I may think that I can get away with it because I'm happy with the rest of the design. Unfortunately it brings down the overall quality of the design. What could have been contributing is not.

And I can do worse than that. Perhaps the filler parts doesn't rhyme well with the rest of the design. This is especially easy to spot when dealing with color schemes. A color blob at the wrong place, outside of the established color scheme, could hurt a design a lot. One bad apple spoils the barrel, they say. (...)

Apparently it was Aristotele who once said that "The whole is greater/more than the sum of the parts". Sometimes I take it to mean that rhyme and balance (synergy) is more important (greater) than... say, every part of the design being great but in in disharmonious ways.


I quite relate to this; I find it dead easy to fill a space with neat little greebles and it looks interesting possibly because it's a mass of intricate, high-contrast detail. But is it good design? I'm not sure.

As for colour, I will admit that in some cases I feel like I'd want the ships to display more colour, but I'm uncomfortable going too far with it. Most modders colour ships by faction but we're simply not assigning ships by faction in Starsector. Colour has to be a secondary signifier that indicates tech level or ship role, so I feel for our purposes it should take a step back and let other game effects, icons, and overlay use stronger colours to indicate important information.

Heh, basically what Alex said. (But then I realize we did talk about this a lot in the early stages of development so it's unsurprising that we'd come up with similar answers.)
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Alex

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Re: Better Vanilla Sprites
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2014, 10:02:54 AM »

Heh, basically what Alex said. (But then I realize we did talk about this a lot in the early stages of development so it's unsurprising that we'd come up with similar answers.)

I think you might actually mean "what Foxer360 said" - that last paragraph is entirely his :)
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Vinya

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Re: Better Vanilla Sprites
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2014, 10:23:29 AM »

The Apogee and Condor remixes bring something newish to the table, but as the others said, the contrast makes them look at little like a CoD Montage video.

Again, like everyone else said, if this appeals to you, all the power to you, but alongside the other sprites (weapon/ship) they'll seem out of place.

@David

Jansson is a deity of retro sci-fi, holy crap. :O
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Sathe

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Re: Better Vanilla Sprites
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2014, 11:11:08 AM »

I find calling this "fix" incredible rude...
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David

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Re: Better Vanilla Sprites
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2014, 11:21:06 AM »

I find calling this "fix" incredible rude...

Hey now, let's not turn this into 'bash the OP'. I'm not offended- there's no need to be on my behalf!

Perhaps the title is a bit roughly worded, but 1. I recognize that the driving motivation is enthusiasm for Starsector (which is awesome), and 2. the whole point of modding is to allow people to adapt the game's content to what they want to get out of it. The official devs (us) necessarily have broader concerns about readability and appeal, but modding let's people do whatever they want without those constraints. It opens up room for aesthetic experimentation, learning, & provokes interesting design discussions (like we're having now!).

I don't follow the mods very closely in general but it's always cool and valuable to see how people interpret and re-interpret the art & gameplay of Starsector.
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Punch Clock Horrors

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Re: Better Vanilla Sprites
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2014, 12:11:16 PM »

I think that the stained look to them would look a lot better on a separate faction, on vanilla sprites it looks kind of funky though its probably due to not being used to them.
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Sathe

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Re: Better Vanilla Sprites
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2014, 12:19:47 PM »

I find calling this "fix" incredible rude...

Hey now, let's not turn this into 'bash the OP'. I'm not offended- there's no need to be on my behalf!

Perhaps the title is a bit roughly worded, but 1. I recognize that the driving motivation is enthusiasm for Starsector (which is awesome), and 2. the whole point of modding is to allow people to adapt the game's content to what they want to get out of it. The official devs (us) necessarily have broader concerns about readability and appeal, but modding let's people do whatever they want without those constraints. It opens up room for aesthetic experimentation, learning, & provokes interesting design discussions (like we're having now!).

I don't follow the mods very closely in general but it's always cool and valuable to see how people interpret and re-interpret the art & gameplay of Starsector.

Don´t worry, it is not on your behalf, this is completly from my own initiative. I completly understand how is "outer eye" opinion beneficial. But taking properly done sprites, calling them washed down, then "fixing them" by someone who said he doesn´t belive he is good at painting/spriting (in that case what that would mean about author of "washed down" versions) is simply painful to watch.

But well, I will let it be.
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Doogie

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Re: Better Vanilla Sprites
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2014, 12:47:11 PM »

I see what the developers mean when they say that it makes the ships more stylized rather than the realism they tried to achieve, but I see that these ships look much, MUCH better beside the stylized Tri-Tachyon ships, just in style. So, these ships look really good alongside the curvy Tri-Tach ones, but they do deviate from the realism they were aimed at.
Although, that condor is probably a step-up no matter what, as the condor did always look a bit flat..
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xenoargh

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Re: Better Vanilla Sprites
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2014, 01:53:13 PM »

My only real critique of this is the changes in saturation; with the Venture, in particular, it's lost some of the flavor of the original's palette. 

I like the overall feel, though; it's clear that David's approach has changed with each piece, and it's fun to watch his evolution and experiments :)

I agree that these feel a little closer to the deep feel of the Tritachyon designs; cutting the saturation a bit might be helpful in really nailing the style while keeping the relative change in depth.
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XpanD

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Re: Better Vanilla Sprites
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2014, 02:48:46 PM »

I like the Apogee and Condor from the OP here, but the other two look waaay too saturated to me. And yeah, I can't say I really consider this something that needs fixing either, and calling this a fix... that just seems a bit disrespectful. Oh well, some people seem to like it so all the more power to them, I suppose!
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kazi

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Re: Better Vanilla Sprites
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2014, 03:28:34 PM »

Ok should probably check back in before this thread gets out of hand. Originally these were simply done as practice so I could try out different lighting techniques and improve my spriting. Some of the vanilla sprites (the Condor and Apogee) do appear very flat, which is why I chose them first. I just kind of figured, "hey someone else might be interested in these," and decided to post them here. Perhaps the original language may have been a bit blunt, but I think there is always room for improvement and it really helps to have other people go through one's work and fix the things they have issues with. I, for one, generally learn a lot by watching what other people do to my sprites.

Although the vanilla sprites do have a distinctive style, some look much better than others. If we are being honest, the Heron and many of the high tech ships blow others like the Condor straight out of the water. Additionally, many of the mods here use much more lighting and look "better" than the original sprites (yes, I said it.). Not to put Cycerin on the spot here, but his mod is an example of what I wished the vanilla sprites looked like (keptin's new iFed ships are quite beautiful as well). In fact, I would even go as far as saying that the vanilla weapons and effects make many vanilla ship sprites look out of place (the weapons and effects look almost 3D, whereas some of the ships are undeniably flat). That said, I'm constantly editing my stuff and trying to learn how to put in the level of detail that David does for each of his sprites. The engines/wiring/greebly bits look absolutely amazing on the vanilla ships.

Rather than simply whine on the forums about how I thought the devs "had to do _____ and ______ or this game will suck" (this seems to be a common theme on these forums, people giving nothing but negative feedback and/or demanding features), I just went through and made the changes I wanted myself. These sprites were made to better fit in with modded factions, which are much more colorful and have a different style of lighting for the most part.

Here's a comparison of several long skinny cruisers (in no particular order). You are free to come to whatever conclusions you want to.
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On the actual sprites themselves, I simply added a bit of general highlighting and shading, and traced along the edges of panels/details, etc. with more pronounced lighting effects to get them to look more 3D. The Venture and Mule admittedly need a bit of tweaking, added saturation seems to be a major side effect of my shading methods on colored sprites. I can always go back through and improve things to suit people's tastes.

Again, if you don't like them, don't use them. Let's all try and remember that this is a videogame.

Especially this guy. He takes himself a little too seriously.
I find calling this "fix" incredible rude...
Don´t worry, it is not on your behalf, this is completly from my own initiative. I completly understand how is "outer eye" opinion beneficial. But taking properly done sprites, calling them washed down, then "fixing them" by someone who said he doesn´t belive he is good at painting/spriting (in that case what that would mean about author of "washed down" versions) is simply painful to watch.

But well, I will let it be.
Do you always flame modders who try to make graphics mods? Like do you ever see people on the Steam forums bashing people who make new ENB series or improved models for Skyrim? Just becomes it ships with the game doesn't mean it's necessarily the be-all-end-all best graphics ever. In a similar fashion, I would say that there are probably many improvements I could make to my "improvements." In fact, why don't you take a stab at making a graphics mod? You seem to be quite the expert in that regard. ;)


If you have any criticisms (yes, I'll fix the saturation), let's hear them! I'll try and fix them as best I can at some point.
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