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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: [0.8a] Starsector+ 3.7.0  (Read 1325290 times)

Surge

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Re: [0.7.2a] Starsector+ 3.3.0
« Reply #2460 on: March 13, 2016, 10:21:03 AM »

I honestly don't care for the Cronus either but I find skimmer/teleporter capitals to be underwhelming in general, they're good for bullying much smaller but faster ships because they're hard to kite but they usually lose straight fights, especially against other capitals. I tend to be a very "all or nothing" player and will typically hammer the enemy down until I'm on the brink of overload and then withdraw to vent, which works great in smaller and more nimble ships like the Wolf or Medusa, but larger ships with lower thrust and slower teleporters are much harder for me to pick and choose engagements in since they will usually overload under their own weapons before I can teleport back out, and I really need to teleport in if I want a good engagement range in the first place. That said I do adore the Diable capitals because the flicker core has a very good recycle rate so I can engage and disengage effectively even at the capital scale.
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ANGRYABOUTELVES

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Re: [0.7.2a] Starsector+ 3.3.0
« Reply #2461 on: March 13, 2016, 11:13:24 AM »

ANGRYABOUTELVES, you are alone in your opinions regarding this subject, no modder or anyone else for that matter agrees with your criticisms of the Cronus.
More irrelevant stuff.
How about you keep your ideas nobody agree with to yourself, and let people with actual knowledge of the game's internal mechanics worry about balance?

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Surge

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Re: [0.7.2a] Starsector+ 3.3.0
« Reply #2462 on: March 13, 2016, 11:21:40 AM »

I can't tell if elves really likes the Cronus on paper but finds it terrible in practice, or if he just hates it that much.
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ANGRYABOUTELVES

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Re: [0.7.2a] Starsector+ 3.3.0
« Reply #2463 on: March 13, 2016, 12:25:39 PM »

I can't tell if elves really likes the Cronus on paper but finds it terrible in practice, or if he just hates it that much.
It's an okay ship, it's just in an awkward spot. It's heavier than a regular cruiser, but not heavy enough to be worth a tug, especially with only vanilla weapons. It's shortcomings are mitigated somewhat with mod weapons, but every other energy weapon ship gets better too, so it's still not worth a tug on a relative scale. Everything else about the ship is fine, except I find it's just too slow in campaign.
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Dark.Revenant

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Re: [0.7.2a] Starsector+ 3.3.0
« Reply #2464 on: March 13, 2016, 01:53:20 PM »

I completely disagree.  There are no burn 8 capitals, just as there are absolutely no burn 9 cruisers or burn 10 destroyers.  The only notable exception, SCY, blocks you out from having augmented engines, so in the end the rule still holds.
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Surge

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Re: [0.7.2a] Starsector+ 3.3.0
« Reply #2465 on: March 13, 2016, 02:37:39 PM »

In all fairness there are no phase skimmer capitals either save for the Cronus.
Though I think this is past the point where either side is willing to accept or consider any argument or counter-argument.
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ANGRYABOUTELVES

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Re: [0.7.2a] Starsector+ 3.3.0
« Reply #2466 on: March 13, 2016, 03:29:34 PM »

I completely disagree.  There are no burn 8 capitals, just as there are absolutely no burn 9 cruisers or burn 10 destroyers.  The only notable exception, SCY, blocks you out from having augmented engines, so in the end the rule still holds.
That's correct. Sky doesn't have a burn 8 capital, as far as I know. The Nemean Lion is burn 7, and the Keto is burn 9; i.e. what you'd get out of a burn 8 capital with augmented engines.
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Tartiflette

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Re: [0.7.2a] Starsector+ 3.3.0
« Reply #2467 on: March 13, 2016, 03:53:13 PM »

That's correct. Sky doesn't have a burn 8 capital, as far as I know. The Nemean Lion is burn 7, and the Keto is burn 9; i.e. what you'd get out of a burn 8 capital with augmented engines.
Oh you found a single exception in another mod, good job! Except... Well first you never EVER balance a mod against another mod. Second, the burn 9 Keto was a balance test and since it is overpowered now its burn speed will be reduced to 8 next update. Better luck next time.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2016, 04:02:20 PM by Tartiflette »
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Re: [0.7.2a] Starsector+ 3.3.0
« Reply #2468 on: March 13, 2016, 04:09:18 PM »

Is it just me or is it getting really hostile in here?
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ANGRYABOUTELVES

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Re: [0.7.2a] Starsector+ 3.3.0
« Reply #2469 on: March 13, 2016, 04:26:35 PM »

That's correct. Sky doesn't have a burn 8 capital, as far as I know. The Nemean Lion is burn 7, and the Keto is burn 9; i.e. what you'd get out of a burn 8 capital with augmented engines.
Oh you found a single exception in another mod, good job! Except... Well first you never EVER balance a mod against another mod. Second, the burn 9 Keto was a balance test and since it is overpowered now its burn speed will be reduced to 8 next update. Better luck next time.
Wouldn't it then feel like a straight downgrade from the Astral without any redeeming ability since the nerf of the main gun?
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Weltall

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Re: [0.7.2a] Starsector+ 3.3.0
« Reply #2470 on: March 13, 2016, 04:33:56 PM »

More like, instead of an exception, he found an unbalance >.> something good came out of this. ANGRYABOUTELVES, you do realize that the mods that are suggested on SS+ main page are balanced according to SS+, to give the players that will use them an overall balanced game between factions right? It is nice to dig up unbalances to help them fix them, but don't expect to actually win an argument about SS+ balance. Dark Revenant and the rest break their necks to keep their mods balanced and obviously such an unbalance will occur, then it will be mentioned by the community if overlooked and fixed. Just to take a look at their effort (which is actually a really nice read) you can check the Starsector Ship Tiers, here on the forums. They talk with each other, converse, listen to each other and all of them try to keep a general balance.
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Ignorance is bliss..

Tartiflette

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Re: [0.7.2a] Starsector+ 3.3.0
« Reply #2471 on: March 13, 2016, 04:43:25 PM »

Wouldn't it then feel like a straight downgrade from the Astral without any redeeming ability since the nerf of the main gun?
And right now its a straight upgrade from the Astral without any downside, so what? I choose the lesser of two evils, but feel free to stand alone like a stump in the river of common sense.

Or to quote Mark Twain too (since that Captain America speech was strongly inspired from his essays): "Patriot: The person who can holler the loudest without knowing what he is hollering about."
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ANGRYABOUTELVES

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Re: [0.7.2a] Starsector+ 3.3.0
« Reply #2472 on: March 13, 2016, 04:47:53 PM »

Wouldn't it then feel like a straight downgrade from the Astral without any redeeming ability since the nerf of the main gun?
And right now its a straight upgrade from the Astral without any downside, so what? I choose the lesser of two evils, but feel free to stand alone like a stump in the river of common sense.

Or to quote Mark Twain too (since that Captain America speech was strongly inspired from his essays): "Patriot: The person who can holler the loudest without knowing what he is hollering about."
Doubled maintenance cost, one less flight deck, the ability to have four flight decks and various weaponry disabled for the entire rest of a fight, and a much lower extra crew capacity for absorbing fighter losses aren't downsides?
« Last Edit: March 13, 2016, 04:50:15 PM by ANGRYABOUTELVES »
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Re: [0.7.2a] Starsector+ 3.3.0
« Reply #2473 on: March 13, 2016, 05:13:15 PM »

I was gonna say that the Keto has the benefit of being at burn speed 8 without any expensive hull mods but then I checked the numbers and with a deficit of 85 OP you could put several hull mods on the Astral and still have more OP for weapons. I get the Keto's gun is supposed to offset this but in my limited time with the Keto I've found the main gun...well it's been a dubiously useful proposition in capital scale battles, since it lacks frontloaded damage that can offset the dismal rate of fire and charge time, and the AoE EMP tends to just go into shields all around.
The Keto might need a few smaller buffs to offset a hit as big as knocking down the burn speed like that.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2016, 05:20:31 PM by Surge »
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Tartiflette

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Re: [0.7.2a] Starsector+ 3.3.0
« Reply #2474 on: March 13, 2016, 05:22:27 PM »

Doubled maintenance cost, one less flight deck, the ability to have four flight decks and various weaponry disabled for the entire rest of a fight, and a much lower extra crew capacity for absorbing fighter losses aren't downsides?
Same deployment cost, more than twice the hull and armor thanks to the twig parts, much better drones, almost twice the speed and maneuverability, cheaper, smaller skeleton crew, better PD... We can play that game a long time, and in the end you still won't make your point relevant, and you still won't get any of the changes you want. What you did managed to antagonize many modders with that impressive display of egotistical entitlement.

I was gonna say that the Keto has the benefit of being at burn speed 8 without any expensive hull mods but then I checked the numbers and with a deficit of 85 OP you could put several hull mods on the Astral and still have more OP for weapons. I get the Keto's gun is supposed to offset this but in my limited time with the Keto I've found the main gun...well it's been a dubiously useful proposition in capital scale battles, since it lacks frontloaded damage and the AoE EMP tends to just go into shields all around.
The Keto might need a few smaller buffs to offset a hit as big as knocking down the burn speed like that.
The Keto has 50 spare points once the slots are filled with average weapons (knowing that Scyan weapons are actually bellow average cost), plus 1 large and 6 small built-in, against the Astrals 90 spare points, or 55 if you want the augmented engines to match the burn speed. And then the Keto has still far better stats and doesn't need those hulmods that much. Also the EMP from the main gun pierce shields outright and can silence a target with ease to help a bombing run.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2016, 05:26:43 PM by Tartiflette »
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