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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: Looking Forward (really long)  (Read 13534 times)

Hari Seldon

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Re: Looking Forward (really long)
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2014, 07:58:08 PM »

This might be a bit of a wild theory but I think the collapse is not in all areas, only the high-technology Tri-Tachyon stuff.

I think we need to look closer at autofactories.  I think there must be mini-autofactories like 3D printers that small businesses and civilians with an engineering hobby would have.  These mini-autofactories would have plenty of memory for a lot of preinstalled freeware Universal Access Chips (UACs) that would specify how to build many small-scale things.  Why have lots of preinstalled freeware designs?  It's like asking why you should have lots of different kinds of legos to build something.  Freeware can accomplish a lot, for example an entire functional operating system for a computer.  Apple computers and Android phones are based on Unix/Linux.  Linux (ex: Ubuntu) computers are being sold.  This means that the "armchair historians, tinkers, and the insatiably curious" would be a huge force that would prevent many commodity goods from being lost (say the low-tech stuff).

A level above freeware UACs would be the UAC-designing proprietary software.  That software could help a LOT (it could even be an artificial intelligence) with designing commodity not-bleeding-edge goods so you don't need special training.  I mean if patents still expire in the future then things become commodities within only a few decades like they do now (for example TVs, radios ... and I guess eventually computer chips too, even if you need an artificial intelligence to help you design the chips if you have little training).  Although the story page for Starsector seems to say corporations are stronger in Starsector and maybe they got the laws passed that patents don't expire.  The medium-tech stuff might be able to be designed from the proprietary software even after the collapse.

A level above UAC-designing software would be the proprietary and military UACs, say the high-tech stuff Tri Tachyon has, which cannot be designed anymore, nor decades or centuries to come, because the skill was lost.  These would be the irreplacable UACs.  Although clever use of low and medium technology might be in this category sometimes?  Like cars are "high tech" and bicycles are "low tech" but you want that expensive carbon-fiber bicycle instead of just the old rusty one.



Maybe you can't figure out how to build a "proper" autofactory, but can get close ... say an assembly line of mini-autofactories could be unlocked in the Industry tree.



Looking into the Starsector Game Features it seems that exploration can let you shore up all three areas of the collapsing civilization (habitable worlds, industry, and technology):

"Explore hundreds of star systems to find habitable worlds, rich resource deposits, and lost technology"

Does that mean you could attempt to use your exploration to save civilization?  Maybe?  Soil nanites were lost but you still are looking for habitable worlds?  Why?  Are they worlds you don't have to terraform?

Building a bunker to retire to also sounds like a fun alternative to just quitting if the sector falls apart.  Maybe if you side with the luddites the game ends with civilization regressing to pre-industrial farming worlds and everything else goes dark.  Trying to reactivate the Gates should be in the game should be an option for those who want to try, even if in the end you find out you can't succeed.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2014, 09:07:27 PM by Hari Seldon »
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Re: Looking Forward (really long)
« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2014, 09:21:05 PM »

@Xenoargh: LOL, yeah, there was a sudden zombie outbreak. Starsector is the sequel to SPAZ :P. Maybe the SPAZ team and the Starsector devs can get together and make a baby called Starsector Pirates And Zombies 2 :D I think something could be done for an overarching campaign, it's for Alex to decide if he'd want to include it. I just think that even in a sandpit there needs to be an objective or a goal that you can complete if you want, and then continue in whatever sandpit you've created for yourself after the campaign scenario's are fulfilled. Just Cause you finish a sandpit (pun intended) I think there are good examples where there is still some reward for continuing, such as Far Cry 3 or Tomb Raider as recent examples.

@Hari: I'll be honest, patents? In the future? Welll...maybe they're honoured within a particular faction, but in real life patents and copyright are blatantly ignored on a daily basis on and commercial and industrial scale. I'm looking at you China, Japan, Thailand... China steals billions of dollars worth of IP from the USA year without recourse in successful industrial espionage attempts, and it's often government sponsored. I think this whole thread of discussion is a bit moot.

It'll be interesting to hear Alex's feedback on Xenoargh's commentary as I think many are wondering how the product description/aspiration/goals/advertisement is going to be implemented.

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xenoargh

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Re: Looking Forward (really long)
« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2014, 08:37:28 PM »

Yeah, that was my little joke about why the Domain fell apart;  I wrote a much-lengthier rant about the backstory and then I decided to not post it as it's really not that important.  

I did come up with a semi-reasonable explanation for the slide in technological progress, though, after sifting the backstory's premise a lot; it's grimdark, so it ought to make the people who want grimdark happy.  

Here is the haiku version:

The Domain controlled all technology very efficiently.  When it died, most technology died with it.  The Sector is a mess because of this.  All of the Factions currently in the game make sense given the premise, established and defended below.

The long version:

The Domain of Man- a History
(that actually makes sense)

The Domain of Man was, depending on your point of view, either a nearly-perfect Golden Age civilization or the most terrifying dictatorship ever created.  At its height, the Domain covered thousands of light-years in diameter, and boasted nearly-perfect economic conditions.  Nobody starved; machines did most of the hard work, and nobody had to work unless they wanted to have more than the basic stipend provided to all human beings.  Compared to the many civilizations on ancient Terra, it was an almost perfect system.

Because of the extraordinary size and complexity of the Domain, with its countless billions and nearly-countless sub-cultures, it was governed by extremely powerful Lethetic Intellects (also known as AIs), because the many Sectors had become far too large for any emperor or king or President to manage, no matter how gifted his or her advisers were.  Government of the entire Domain had become, simply put, too big for mere humans to run.  Humans within the government were consulted by the AIs on issues where there weren't clear laws or precedents, but the AIs then formed new laws based on the results and then applied these precedents through a complex process of law enforcement, planning and management.

The resulting civilization was mainly happy but almost completely static.  The AIs were programmed by their original creators, a group of programmers who were drafted to create a perfect government after the last human-led Grand Empire finally collapsed due to its sheer size, to create and foster conditions of peace, stability and economic fairness (in that order).  

The AIs did so by creating good government policies... but also by ruthlessly preventing new technology from being developed, with military and police forces if necessary.  

While human researchers were still needed, since AIs weren't ever capable of truly original ideas, scientific progress was constantly monitored by a Control Board of AIs and humans tasked with checking out the possible uses of any new technology.  If the uses were benign (say, a 5% increase in the gigaflops performed by a commonly-used processor) then they were accepted; if they had possible military applications, they were often rejected or put under very tight controls as to applications, and of course the Domain AIs stored and analyzed these technologies, so it remained near the cutting edge of scientific progress, in an empire that was vast in scale.  The Domain AIs were, therefore, technologically superior to any single group of humans, no matter how brilliant or advanced their technology became; if they lacked a specific advantage, they always had a counter ready and waiting- in some cases, after waiting for centuries, backed up in some database of forbidden technology, waiting for the day it would become necessary to use it.

Furthermore, because the AIs were aware that rebellion is a natural human impulse, however futile, they built in fail-safes; every single CPU in the Domain required weekly updates from the AIs in order to keep operating, and every (legal) operating system, database, and major program had stop codes built in, that would halt their operation and zero out their storage devices should they not get updates within a week.  

Since most software resided in AI-monitored Clouds and practically all devices on civilized worlds could receive the FTL pulsed update codes without a pause, it was almost unheard-of for CPUs to actually fail and most citizens weren't even aware that they could be shut down remotely.

If a System attempted to rebel, this was a terrifying weapon; the entire industrial base, miltary assets and transportation systems ground to a halt, leaving the disorganized System economically crippled.  Oftentimes, the AIs merely had to demonstrate the system to rebellious System Governors in order to end rebellions and force a prompt regime change.

When that didn't work, they closed the Gates, quit sending new updates, and sent in their soldiers; human troops equipped with relatively low-tech but heavily-armored vessels in massive waves.  These forces, known as the Janissaries, were controlled by Hegemons; gene-altered super-soldiers who had been trained to be the ultimate generals, logistical experts and analysts.  Given the vast size of the Domain, the forces of the Janissaries numbered nearly a billion, all-told, with hundreds of thousands of fighting vessels at their disposal.  

An outsider would have noted, however, that these forces used surprisingly low-tech equipment.  The technology they employed was often centuries out of date- still effective, but not cutting-edge.  They made up for these deficiencies with numbers, training and careful planning.  Usually, after a System had lost most of its industrial base, this was more than enough to settle a dispute without major violence; simply seeing hundreds of vessels in orbit around a crippled world, able to strike with impunity from high orbit, was more than enough to crush all but the most violent rebellions.  When even this failed to result in prompt return of the System to Domain control, the Janissaries were used to crush resistance with a minimum of applied violence.  Even though their technology was far less advanced than that of the average street criminal, their advantages over a crippled worlds' forces were such that most rebellions that reached this stage were quickly quashed, or at least reduced to the level of guerrilla wars that tended to peter out as the Domain re-established its rule and ferreted out the guerrillas by monitoring the populations closely for a generation or two.  Despite the huge cost in processing power this required, it was an almost-foolproof system, and very few rebellions ever lasted for more than a few years.

The AIs used low-tech ships for their Janissary armies for two reasons:  firstly, because they were less susceptible to electronic warfare devices and were far easier to maintain, secondly, because it gave the AIs a technological advantage, should the human military ever attempt a coup d'etat against their AI masters.  The AIs built and constantly upgraded an enormous fleet of AI-controlled vessels, ostensibly to counter any ultra-tech non-human civilizations, should they be encountered by humanity, but mainly as a Praetorian Guard, ready to defend the Domain's ultimate controllers should it become necessary.  Although the AIs were naturally quite distributed throughout the Domain, the largest center of computing power remained in orbit around Terra, and the AI fleets constantly patrolled there in watchful orbits.

When non-human civilizations were encountered, they were given a simple choice; either flee outside the Domain, or be destroyed.  The AIs original programmers included this basic instruction because the Grand Empire had fallen apart when non-human groups within the Empire revolted.  The Domain AIs were generous about providing the means to leave the Domain, knowing that allowing non-humans to flee was far cheaper than a war, but it was clinically hostile to non-humans.  So the Domain of Man remained wholly human, if broadly defined; genetically-augmented people were permitted, within certain boundaries, cyborg technology was permitted with the same controls applied to all technology (and therefore, no cyborg would ever defy the Domain AIs, since they could literally kill it with a thought) but there weren't any non-human civilizations within its borders.  

The fleeing non-human civilizations often told other non-humans they met as they sought new homes far outside Domain space about Domain policy; and after several centuries, most groups fled before the Domain's might when it opened a nearby Sector, knowing that it was now just a matter of time before they were kicked out.  A few tried to fight the Domain, and a few succeeded... for a year, a decade, in one case, for a century (the Pro'lix, who possessed an innate understanding of Phase space and were the inventors of the Phase Cloak).  But none of them ever defied the Domain for long- it was simply too big, too rich and too ruthless.

This ruthless and constant repression of technological development and absence of non-human civilizations with exotic new technologies left capitalist organizations in a quandary; without basic research, they couldn't gain technical advantages over their competition, and were often forced to compete on price and style alone (marketing technologies were carefully controlled, as by this point in human history, advertising technologies had long passed the point where subtle psycho-profiling could virtually compel people to buy a product).  

However, the Domain AIs, being ruled by ancient precedent, still allowed new patents to be filed, and the Domain was vast; it often took decades for the Control Boards to make a final ruling about technologies developed out on the fringes of the Domain, which, even with Gate technology, were years away from Terra.

Naturally, this meant that most cutting-edge research firms were on the periphery of the Domain; when new Sectors were opened up for colonization, R&D firms flocked to them, knowing that the further they got from Terra, the more likely that they'd be able to discover, patent and profit from technologies, and by the time the Control Board gave a formal ruling, the money would be invested elsewhere.  

While this occasionally led the Domain AIs to take drastic measures (in the Septurni Sectus System, for example, where a firm patented a molecular-friction device far in advance of Domain technology that had very obvious military applications), usually these developments were applied to relatively-mundane consumer electronics and industrial processes, and the Domain AIs, recognizing the futility of attempting to completely control innovation, let the peripheries act as a pressure valve.

New Sectors were also places that attracted the rebellious, the disaffected, various misfits and the usual collection of political and religious extremists one would expect on a human frontier.  The Domain actively encouraged such groups to keep moving outwards; it preserved stability with a minimum of violence and it prevented rebellions.  As Sectors matured, they gradually became naturalized and were fully integrated into the Domain's system of tight-but-benevolent control.

It was an almost perfect system.  Almost.  Unless you were interested in computer sciences.  The Domain AIs had one great fear; that some day, hackers would defeat their protocols and insert rogue instructions, leading to cascade failures throughout the Domain, crashing all of their systems and bringing their government to an end.  While they had such massive redundancy that this was unlikely, it was theoretically feasible; by the time rogue instructions attacked, they might have already infected every Domain AI sub-controller in a System, effectively killing the AI, and if such an attack were to be transmitted via the Gates...

So the computer sciences were considered to be the most dangerous human technology.  Control over software development was complete; no humans were taught anything about programming, AIs wrote all software after being given a business case by humans... and even the most rebellious groups and criminal organizations were forced to use pre-Domain computers if they wished to avoid scrutiny by the AIs and immediate incarceration.  This did not mean that nobody anywhere knew how to program anything; ancient computers and even-more-ancient programming languages were passed down through the centuries by various groups, clubs and corporations.  But it was the biggest taboo technology, and one of the few crimes the Domain punished with the death penalty- a dead hacker cannot pass his knowledge to the next generation.

While nobody in this Sector knows why the Gates suddenly failed, the results were predictable; all computing devices, other than ancient hardware possessed by groups operating outside the law and a few research devices developed in secret by R&D firms were instantly disabled.  Economic chaos erupted; governments failed, because the System Governors couldn't communicate with their citizens until ancient radio technologies (or conscripted archeo-tech confiscated from criminal organizations) were built and new communications systems were established.  Billions starved to death as crops weren't harvested on the automated farms, transportation systems failed and 20th-Century systems of logistics had to be re-discovered and implemented, often under the most terrifying circumstances.

But humanity in the Sector did not die out.  Various illegal databases still stored Blueprints for millions of devices and technical information; while the information was often centuries behind Domain technology, it still sufficed to get human industries running again.  Most importantly, star flight wasn't completely eradicated; because of the special nature of Hyperspace travel, their chips weren't destroyed by the collapse of the Gates; while the Auto-Factories became instant junk, without the necessary operating systems and design parameters, it remained possible to maintain space travel.  Maintaining them, however, was a different story; if the Blueprints weren't available in an illegal database somewhere after the Collapse, they were completely dependent on spare parts that could no longer be manufactured.

However, due to the massive hardships, many governments completely collapsed and whole Systems were taken over by dictatorships and juntas.  Systems made war on each other over possession of basic resources, since they were utterly dependent on automated systems to find new mineral deposits and process important ores; without AI assistance and with most of their technologies ruined, wars broke out over the possession of rich asteroid fields and many industries were left without necessary resources.

With the arrival of the Hegemon and the establishment of the Hegemony, a rough sort of stability has emerged in the Sector.  The Hegemon, arriving into a scene of utter chaos, has attempted to do what he believes the Domain AIs would wish; re-establish order, suppress technological development (and new computer science especially) and wait for the Gates to re-open.  They believe that although their actions are often brutal, they are preserving the Sector and the Domain's way of life for the future day when the Gates re-open.  But their emphasis on stability and more importantly, re-establishing the Domain's control over technology has many detractors and has caused many Systems to resist their encroachments with violent results.

The Tri-Tachyon Corporation, being the most powerful R&D firm in the Sector, was suddenly responsible for its physical survival, after most of the governments fell apart, and has adapted to the changed circumstances by dealing with any System where it's profitable.  They possess many technologies that were current when the Gates went down, preserved in their many "deniable" databases.  But chaos is not necessarily bad for business, and Tri-Tachyon has a love-hate relationship with the Hegemony.  Most Tri-Tachyon leaders believe that the Gates stopped working due to a successful attack on the Domain AIs, and they are convinced that if they play their cards right, they will eventually learn how to re-open a Gate and found a new stellar empire based on pure capitalism, free of the technological restraints of the Domain.  However, due to the loss of all of their Domain databases and Cloud-based software, this renaissance has been slow to develop, and until then, they do business, act as spoilers... and keep researching.  They feel that it's very unlikely the Domain AIs, if any survive, will return before they succeed in re-activating the Gates and escaping from the Domain entirely... or start picking up the pieces.

The other groups in the Sector have their own agendas and theories about why the Gates stopped working and what, if anything, the future holds, but no one can be certain.  Non-Gate travel times from the nearest Sector are about three centuries at the maximum speeds of Domain technology (roughly 20 light-years per day), so it will be at least another century before any news can be exchanged.  

Until then, they pursue their agendas- from the anti-technological agenda of the Luddites to the escapist visions of the Travelers, a group of survivalists who are attempting to construct a ship capable of traveling across the galaxy and escaping from the Domain forever.  These groups are all willing to hire people with working starships, buy working Blueprints and buy precious resources.  A savvy captain can make a fortune running guns, mining for Germanium or stealing information from planets with databases.  Space piracy is rampant; opportunists, disaffected ex-military crews and extremist groups recognized early that more than ever before, valuable goods will be shipped between the worlds.  Military units throughout the Sector offer top dollar for mercenary captains and Letters of Marque are issued to favored persons, allowing them to attack another faction's trade with a thin veneer of legality.  

New ships are manufactured continually, if slowly by Domain standards, whether by using centuries-old Blueprints squirreled away in formerly-illegal places (or Hegemony technical databases).  So, while attrition is high, and the Domain-standard ships are often un-maintainable due to a lack of spare parts, space travel continues, and is very profitable, if one has the skills and attitude to become a star-farer of acumen and persistence.




**********
Whew.  If you got this far, congrats.  

If you want to argue any of it, forget it.  I think it's about the only way to explain the SS backstory that is even vaguely plausible, short of some sort of ridiculously-massive war that occurred so suddenly and was so widespread that the Gate system was rendered inoperative instantly and without warning.  I racked my brains trying to come up with any other way that the Sector could be simultaneously screwed-up politically, resource-poor, has these huge tech differentials, is grimdark in tone and yet wrapped in the great mystery of the Gates going dark.  

The idea that it was merely a lack of resources from the Domain doesn't wash; I'm afraid that the official backstory just doesn't make sense and it can't be made to make sense.  Industrial civilizations just aren't that easily killed; they're based on knowledge, and technology is just applied knowledge.  Knowing that computers come from Babbage's ideas about a machine that could read and write using a form of symbolic logic which then got implemented with simple electronic switches, etc., etc. is an idea; while it's not too hard to kill a computer, it's very hard to kill the idea of a computer.

You can't magically say that people forgot how to make things, short of a setting like Fallout, where so many people have all died simultaneously and life is so hard that it can sometimes be possible to suspend disbelief (like, how come nobody still knows how to make gunpowder, has a casing machine, sheet brass, or can mold bullets, but apparently they have gun-oil, still know how to sight weapons, etc., etc.). 

Outside of a setting like that, it's ridiculous

We have people making maille and katanas and teaching themselves how to knap flint into arrowheads in the ancient patterns these days, merely because they like these things and want the knowledge to be preserved just in case we decide to nuke ourselves back to the Stone Ages.  I just don't buy into dystopian futures where "nobody knows how to do anything useful any more"- go look up any of those words on YouTube with "how to make" and you'll see what I mean.  People just aren't that stupid, and they like preserving knowledge for the sake of doing so- that, and a little paranoia about Losing It All, and voila, very little truly-important ancient knowledge has been lost.  But not just ancient stuff that's not terribly useful; there are people who have carefully documented how 19th Century technology worked, there are libraries full of ancient manuals, blueprints and diagrams.  It's just not really feasible to wipe out all that information; if every computer on the planet died tonight, including all the microprocessors we don't think about, we'd have a big mess for a year or two, definitely, but it wouldn't lead to us fighting over the last Soylent Cracker. 

So, no, I just don't buy into the "grimdark survivalist" vision of the game, and this is why I don't and won't, regardless of whether it would be fun (which I don't agree with, either, but that's a game-design argument- depressing games aren't often things people want to buy, and I'd like Alex and Co. to get rich when the game hits Beta, rather than the current sales representing the peak interest in the title). 

If that's what Alex wants to do, despite it not making sense, fine, it's his game.  But I don't think it's good art, because art about the future should, imho, reflect a future that makes some sort of sense- the premise shouldn't have holes you can drive an Onslaught through.  Science-fiction settings are something that are really hard to make sense, given that they're about stuff that hasn't happened yet... so, if it's not just a Space Western or a Space Opera, it needs to draw on reality to a great degree, or it's just silly. 

I found SPAZ's "rez" more compelling than the argument for "everybody dying due to no supplies"; while "rez" is a made-up MacGuffin, it at least explains away why everybody's fighting everybody else (access to a really important resource that's limited in supply). 

But food?  Seriously?  No.  Even "spare parts" makes me cringe; if 40th Century spacecraft are suddenly not serviceable, somebody out there will have a database of plans for working 30th Century stuff that's inefficient or poorly-armed or whatever, by modern standards, but can get the job done.  If all of our M-16 variants magically disappeared tomorrow and all the armorers on Earth forget how to make one, Garands can be made again.  If Garands are gone, we'll use Civil War-era weapons.  And most people will remember that M-16s could be made, and somebody will get working on it, knowing that it can be done.  Knowledge just can't be erased all that easily and knowing a thing can be done is half the battle for an engineer.

A space-faring civilization on the Domain's scale can't exist with pre-built everything and dumb settlers who were so cow-like and stupid that they failed to realize that their supply of Farm Nanites or whatever could be cut off, fail to arrive on time or just not work for the alien soils they wanted to terraform.  It implies a level of stupidity and poor planning (on the part of millions, if not billions) that just beggars belief.  

It also implies an incredible degree of incompetence and lack of basic knowledge which I just don't find persuasive; a place as big as a Sector is going to need a lot of engineers, technicians and all that just to keep the lights on, regardless of how good Domain technology was (as my uncle once said, "Never forget- machines break").  

Lastly, it implies that humans were so incredibly incompetent at basic logistics that the minute the next shipments didn't arrive on time and the Gates went dark, administrators didn't say, "gee, we might need to conserve resources and start building up our industrial base around here".  With the kind of technology required to build something like a Domain, we should expect that to have been incredibly powerful and automated, by today's standards- robots automatically processing asteroids into various metals, automated farms, Von Neumann robotics labs, etc.  So, the "lack of spare parts" theory just doesn't work unless everything fell apart practically simultaneously.  This premise finally explains it in a way that makes some sense.
  
It has a few holes (I really can't imagine that nobody had ways around such pervasive DRM schemes, backups of backups of Cloud software that could be restored and then run for a few days at a time before being wiped and restored again, etc., etc.) but it basically holds together and that kind of thing can be hand-waved away by saying, "sure, but it's marginal compared to how much was totally lost when the DRM killed it".

About the only way we can explain this stuff away is by ever-present watchers and some sort of control system so vast and powerful that it controlled access to most information, industrial processes and practical technology that crashed all at once.  It also explains why there aren't any Aliens, why Hegemony uses equipment that is clearly not cutting-edge, why there are Mid-Tech vessels at all (centuries-old designs, resurrected from criminal databases and built by desperate governments or B-52 tech- stuff that is ancient but it's still being used because it's cheaper than the alternatives and it still works).  It also conveniently explains why a Tri-Tach, Hegemony and the Independents can all exist and why there's such a muddle of technology, without breaking any of their relationships or putting limits on what they are doing in the present tense.

Anyhow, I've written several back-stories for games and mods over the years; this one was hard, largely because so much of the original just didn't make much sense but had to be explained anyhow, but I think it works as well as anything will for this kind of background :)
« Last Edit: January 06, 2014, 09:48:14 PM by xenoargh »
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Debido

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Re: Looking Forward (really long)
« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2014, 10:51:11 PM »

Well that is a very very very we'll thought out back story, and if anything should be made canon. The logic is sound and difficult to fault.

They'd have to do a montage video to resell the story to new players, can you imagine that as a Star Wars scroll with that at the beginning  ;D
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Thaago

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Re: Looking Forward (really long)
« Reply #19 on: January 06, 2014, 11:01:58 PM »

I absolutely loved your backstory. I thought it was well thought out, creative, and a good read. As I went along, I noted a few things that I thought could be different or improved on, and some different interpretations I'd thought of inspired by this. Then I got to the end, and this:

Quote
If you want to argue any of it, forget it.  I think it's about the only way to explain the SS backstory that is even vaguely plausible...

Why on earth would you write this? Why would you write something, which is obviously your interpretation of the backstory, and then immediately claim that your interpretation is the only possible one that makes sense and that everyone else can shut up?

I completely disagree with almost everything you write after the end of the backstory. The things you claim I don't think even hold true now with the age of computers, let alone thousands of years from now. But apparently I'm not allowed to argue with you.
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Re: Looking Forward (really long)
« Reply #20 on: January 07, 2014, 07:06:34 AM »

Goddamn, very nice. Colour me impressed. Much better than the current overly-grimdark, and completely unexplained setting.
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mendonca

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Re: Looking Forward (really long)
« Reply #21 on: January 07, 2014, 07:32:20 AM »

Quote from: xenoargh
Pro'lix

He he he  :D
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Re: Looking Forward (really long)
« Reply #22 on: January 07, 2014, 08:15:16 AM »

Mh. I think that is a very interesting back story, and nicely written, too. I don't see it fitting very well into the Starsector universe, though. You're actually trying hard to come up with reasons for some things that are already perfectly explained in the established lore.
I hope I don't come over as an ass by pointing out where it doesn't fit (criticism is so much easier then writing...), it's nothing personal, it's just that I care about the facts here. And I kinda understand "If you want to argue any of it, forget it." as a a challenge.




Quote
This ruthless and constant repression of technological development

- Technological development in the Domain was constant; the technology of war ships clearly advanced gradually from Mastery to Core to Expansion tech. The lore heavily implies that, at the moment of collapse, Expansion (high-tech) ships were the only widely used type of ships. Ships from previous eras only became common again in the 200 years after the collapse, due to their easier manufacturability and maintainability. The lore specifically mentions historians as a source for blueprints. Therefor there is no basis to postulate either a ban on the development of military technology or the simultaneous common usage of very different levels of technology pre-collapse, like you did.



Quote
every (legal) operating system, database, and major program had stop codes built in, that would halt their operation and zero out their storage devices should they not get updates within a week.  
"star flight wasn't completely eradicated; because of the special nature of Hyperspace travel, their chips weren't destroyed by the collapse of the Gates;"

- The ships would be dysfunctional withing a week after leaving hyperspace. Which would stop all space travel in the Sector. Which clearly is not the case.


- The lore states that everything worked perfectly fine for weeks after the gates closed. It was the following resource war that initiated the decline, not a sudden shut down of all technology. I'd argue that such a shut down would have had far, far more dire consequences. Many of the Sector's planets are not even habitable, probably lacking breathable atmosphere. Remember, they are "chosen at random".



- Neither the Hegemony nor any Hegemon ever arrived in the Sector. The Hegemony was founded in the Sector by several planets and Task Force Pollux. Task Force Pollux was not an enforcing arm of the Domain, but a disgraced legion used for large-scale human experimentation. The reason for their low level of technology is most likely their extremely long travel time.

- Your story sets the lowest point just after the collapse where almost all tech failed, and from there on it is a steady ascend as technological capacity is regained. The official story has the highest point just after the collapse, then came a war which much lowered the level of civilization, and from there on it's a steady decline as technology (UACs) is lost.



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dumb settlers who were so cow-like and stupid that they failed to realize that their supply of Farm Nanites or whatever could be cut off, fail to arrive on time or just not work for the alien soils they wanted to terraform

What? What should they have done, magically teleported in everything they needed at once? Every major construction project absolutely relies on supply lines, if the are cut, the project dies.


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But not just ancient stuff that's not terribly useful; there are people who have carefully documented how 19th Century technology worked, there are libraries full of ancient manuals, blueprints and diagrams.  It's just not really feasible to wipe out all that information; if every computer on the planet died tonight, including all the microprocessors we don't think about, we'd have a big mess for a year or two, definitely, but it wouldn't lead to us fighting over the last Soylent Cracker

Aside from that two years is ridiculously optimistic, what do you think how long would it take to build super computers and space craft again?

Mh, maybe your disgust with the official explanation for the Sector collapse stems from a misunderstanding.
Collapse for a interstellar civilization doesn't mean the same thing as for an planetary one. The moment the possibility of fast interstellar travel is lost, the civilization, as a whole, is lost. It does not mean that the individual planets fall back into a pre-industrial age, or that everyone starves, or that the capacity for space travel will not be possible again one day. But ftl space travel is still at the very top of the technological ladder, I find it very plausible that it is lost during grand upheaval in a society. And as said, that is all it would take to speak of a collapse (Imagine all of Japan's islands being unable to reach each other for centuries. Would Japan still exist, or would it have collapsed?).
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Re: Looking Forward (really long)
« Reply #23 on: January 07, 2014, 02:18:25 PM »

No fast space travel means the social collapse of civilization, but not technological collapse.  Changing your Japanese Islands example a bit: what if Europe was wrecked or cut off from the USA and African and Asian countries were not very well industrialized?  Well that's like how it was after World War II.  The USA and USSR did just fine on their own in those circumstances, and retained global travel capability.  Ok the USA and USSR were kind of big countries compared to the size of the Sector but still.

The real question is even with only a few or even single developed planet and surrounding asteroids, how could technological collapse happen except as lack of UACs or autofactories?  And xenoargh and my previous post are wondering how lack of UACs could even happen.  I argued that low technology should be basically expired-patent or obsolete "freeware UACs" by now, mid technology should be able to be designed with proprietary UAC-making programs, and only high technology would be lost.  I'm guessing that Hyperspace technology is mid-tech and Gates are high-tech, because I think "low-tech" Strike Force Pollux traveled to the sector at relativistic speeds?
« Last Edit: January 07, 2014, 02:35:19 PM by Hari Seldon »
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LiquidStang

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Re: Looking Forward (really long)
« Reply #24 on: January 07, 2014, 02:26:04 PM »

I have no offence against Japan, I just wish there was a lot more going on there.
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Re: Looking Forward (really long)
« Reply #25 on: January 07, 2014, 02:34:07 PM »

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Technological development in the Domain was constant; the technology of war ships clearly advanced gradually from Mastery to Core to Expansion tech. The lore heavily implies that, at the moment of collapse, Expansion (high-tech) ships were the only widely used type of ships. Ships from previous eras only became common again in the 200 years after the collapse, due to their easier manufacturability and maintainability. The lore specifically mentions historians as a source for blueprints. Therefor there is no basis to postulate either a ban on the development of military technology or the simultaneous common usage of very different levels of technology pre-collapse, like you did.
Where in the lore does it imply any of these things?  It doesn't explain them at all; it's just part of the gameplay.  

The idea that they were more-easily manufactured is a bit hard to justify; if you've lost all of the tooling for bulding a WWI Dreadnought but you have all of the tooling to create a nuclear submarine, then it's not "easier".  Just ask the people who've done things like re-create ancient warships; these projects took years, largely because they had to re-create so many wheels.

Things as complicated as battleships are not AK-47s; they're exponentially more complex to build and maintain and require a vast number of sub-tools to create.  

Moreover, it doesn't make any kind of military sense.  The reason why we use stealth fighters and camera-guided precision munitions these days is because they're just plain better than anything that existed beforehand.  

Where it once took hundreds of bombs to destroy a bridge, a single precision weapon suffices.  Where huge numbers of troops had to patrol, hoping to find an elusive enemy, drones can patrol for days and kill them before they even know they're under attack.  War and technology are distinctly interconnected fields; while I can buy people using crappy old technology because it was all they had access to, like the T-34s that can still be seen in Africa, nobody who's serious about military matters wants to use anything that's not the best.  

So, no, I just don't buy it.  Would the ravaged forces of the Sector have to cut back their expenditures a lot, concentrating on the most important equipment?  Sure.  But they wouldn't start building the equivalent of WWI battleships to fight against nuclear submarines.  About the only way to reason around that is to postulate an enormous amount of information loss and industrial capacity, to the point where things just weren't serviceable at all.  Not "in reduced numbers, with most things mothballed" but "we can't even make spare parts".  That requires a much stronger event than, "we just lost our incoming supplies".  The premise just won't hold water otherwise.

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The ships would be dysfunctional withing a week after leaving hyperspace. Which would stop all space travel in the Sector. Which clearly is not the case.
Ah.  I knew I should have been a bit more explicit there.  What I meant was, "due to their special natures, spacecraft CPUs did not need updates".

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The lore states that everything worked perfectly fine for weeks after the gates closed. It was the following resource war that initiated the decline, not a sudden shut down of all technology. I'd argue that such a shut down would have had far, far more dire consequences. Many of the Sector's planets are not even habitable, probably lacking breathable atmosphere. Remember, they are "chosen at random".
Except that that wouldn't happen, at least, not that simplistically.  

Galactic civilization with super-tech, remember?  Robots mining asteroids, automated farms, hydroponics in huge orbital fields.  There isn't a resource crunch, nobody would starve to death.  Projects might lack a few things they needed, but nothing that they couldn't manufacture after a few months of disruption.  If you're saying that everything in the Sector was planned so badly that the settlers were completely dependent on deliveries of manufactured goods... I just don't buy it and it breaks the rest of the backstory anyhow.  What about autofacs, for example?

As for the rest of the disaster of "losing our supplies", it's an emergency, sure, but not one a society like that can't handle.  Move all of the colonists from the marginal worlds to places with breathable atmospheres, juggle the logistics to put the industrial resources where they needed to go, fire up Von Neumann robots to increase industrial capacity exponentially, and trade some pollution and economic disruption in the present for survival.  

It's ridiculous to suppose that a civilization that advanced couldn't handle this kind of emergency with ease, unless something really horrible happened everywhere all at once.

For historical examples of information societies recovery rates, see France after Napoleon, Germany and Japan after WWII.  Within a generation, they were fixed up and their economies were stronger than they'd been before the wars.  Information societies just don't die all that easily; they tend to have vast amounts of industrial capacity sitting around being unused for economic reasons, not because it doesn't work.  In a super-tech, star-spanning civilization, it's even harder to justify.

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Neither the Hegemony nor any Hegemon ever arrived in the Sector. The Hegemony was founded in the Sector by several planets and Task Force Pollux. Task Force Pollux was not an enforcing arm of the Domain, but a disgraced legion used for large-scale human experimentation. The reason for their low level of technology is most likely their extremely long travel time.
I didn't contradict the existence of Task Force Pollux, but I explained what was going on.  Otherwise it's a farce; guys in the equivalent of maille show up out of the ancient past and meet people with machine-guns.  It's ridiculous to presume they'd be able to do anything, unless military technology available to human forces in the Domain was somehow stunted, deliberately.

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Your story sets the lowest point just after the collapse where almost all tech failed, and from there on it is a steady ascend as technological capacity is regained. The official story has the highest point just after the collapse, then came a war which much lowered the level of civilization, and from there on it's a steady decline as technology (UACs) is lost.
Well, yes... and there's a reason for that.  

Again, you just can't kill information societies without killing their information.  Once people start rebuilding information, the curve is always upwards, in terms of industrial capability (let's leave issues like social justice and economic opportunity to one side; these aren't relevant).  

There isn't a single example of this not happening in history.  At least, not in real history.

For example, in the popular conception, the end of the Roman Empire led to the "Dark Ages"; people think of it as the classic model of gloom-and-doom information loss, since it's the only thing that comes close in human history.  

Yet that took the deliberate destruction of information and the suppression of literacy by the early Christian Church, and even then, a lot less was actually lost than people who've never bothered reading history tend to think.  I think it's fair to say that Europeans lost some information, but they didn't starve to death and while the Empire fragmented, very little core information was lost (the Vikings of the 10th Century used maille shirts and gladius-like swords  and shields that Roman soldiers of 0 AD would have recognized).  

The whole concept that it was a "Dark Age" is now largely discredited.  It just lives on in people's imaginations, because it's a lot more romantic than the reality was; Europe didn't "go dark", it just quit behaving like an Empire.

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What? What should they have done, magically teleported in everything they needed at once? Every major construction project absolutely relies on supply lines, if the are cut, the project dies.
For stuff like this, logistic requirements are roughly like planning for a war; you'd ship everything you thought everybody would need for a long duration to the site before the colonists would arrive.  

Most especially, you'd bring the things needed to establish local informational and industrial infrastructure as soon as possible, so that any accidents or a disruption of the Gate wouldn't cause a serious emergency.  In short, nobody in their right mind would plan this sort of thing without taking great care to avoid what supposedly takes place in the SS backstory.  If the Domain was that incompetent, it didn't run a galactic empire.

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Aside from that two years is ridiculously optimistic, what do you think how long would it take to build super computers and space craft again?
Presuming that we don't invoke magic and take away all of the technical manuals and books on electronic theory and all of the tools... not very long at all.  Again, that's information (and in this specific hypothetical, tools and precision instruments).  If you have it, rebuilding the physical applications of said theory is not nearly the same as having to rebuild the theory from scratch.

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ftl space travel is still at the very top of the technological ladder
No, it's not; otherwise you can't explain Task Force Pollux.  Obviously, humans have had FTL for centuries.  This isn't new, bleeding-edge tech.  Even things as "advanced" as Phase Cloak are quite ancient, according to canon.

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Imagine all of Japan's islands being unable to reach each other for centuries. Would Japan still exist, or would it have collapsed?
What, like they're returned to the period before the Black Ships all of a sudden?  Given that we're talking the economy of an entire solar system with super-tech and automation, I'd expect bleeding-edge scientific progress to slow considerably, but would the civilizations collapse?  Hardly.  

And that is the problem, in a nutshell, with the whole backstory; it falls apart the minute we consider the vast wealth, technological sophistication and logistical resources required to colonize a whole Sector.  The resources this would require are so far beyond what we can do today, and what we can do today, that imagining them dying out "for want of a nail" is pretty ridiculous on the face of it.  The only way I could think of to explain this away that wasn't just Magic hand-waving was something like the Domain as described; nothing else works.  

Wars?  To put a serious dent in the wealth of human knowledge that a Sector's settlers would have carried with them, they would have had to have been nuclear and affect every single System practically at the same time.  Over what?  Specialized computer parts from the Domain that nobody can make spares for any more?

Even if these things were worth fighting nuclear wars over... I don't buy it; at some point, the people involved in said wars would either squirrel away the remaining knowledge or just use the working FTL ships to flee the Sector and start over elsewhere.  It's not like there isn't a lot of galaxy out there.

Aliens?  IDK, maybe aliens showed up and aimed a ray at everybody's computers that miraculously removed all of the technical manuals, erased all of the minds of every expert in the Sector, and then flew away, laughing in harsh alien voices.  But that's basically invoking Magic.

So, in short, no, the storyline doesn't make sense as it's written.  It never has made sense, I've just kept my mouth shut about it for two years, because it's just a backstory.  The only reason why I bothered saying anything is that I think that invoking the backstory to justify a game-design is a very bad idea, especially if the backstory is full of holes and contradictions.
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Hari Seldon

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Re: Looking Forward (really long)
« Reply #26 on: January 07, 2014, 02:41:38 PM »

Quote from: xenoargh
As for the rest of the disaster of "losing our supplies", it's an emergency, sure, but not one a society like that can't handle.  Move all of the colonists from the marginal worlds to places with breathable atmospheres, juggle the logistics to put the industrial resources where they needed to go, fire up Von Neumann robots to increase industrial capacity exponentially, and trade some pollution and economic disruption in the present for survival.  

THIS.  Why try to buy expensive food from another planet instead of just moving there and setting up a homestead and bringing what autofactories, 3D printers, mini-autofactories, etc. you can to the planet you can actually live on and if you really need more resources mine asteroids?  At the very least, Strike Force Pollux would have the ships and suspended animation to ferry lots of people like that.  Ok Infernium is rare so small mining colonies could be made where necessary, but almost everyone should be on planets that can grow food.



I also agree that having lots of data in the data "in the cloud" or on internet servers outside of the Sector and having that cut off with the Gates cutting off would be one of the few possible ways to actually lose as much technology as the Sector lost.  But even with that, at least the freeware UACs should not be in the cloud but be downloaded into every autofactory because they are the lego pieces that are needed to build stuff and design new UACs.  Having autofactories separate from designing new UACs and use of lots of freeware UACs makes no sense, at least for Tri-Tachyon.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2014, 02:57:34 PM by Hari Seldon »
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LiquidStang

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Re: Looking Forward (really long)
« Reply #27 on: January 07, 2014, 02:50:38 PM »

Once the width of the back and the destruction of hundreds of shots, one of the Accuracy and the weapons are sufficient. A huge group of numeric for the net, an attempt to locate the enemy trying to drone the energy, I know that in the control group to kill. War and mutual technical Hebrews is one person that will be the field, you can see on the T-34S with the same core group for four issues, you want to control the use and support for binary liquid year rights to have all the five statements below which are crappy.

Just my 2cents.
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BillyRueben

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Re: Looking Forward (really long)
« Reply #28 on: January 07, 2014, 04:03:29 PM »

Once the width of the back and the destruction of hundreds of shots, one of the Accuracy and the weapons are sufficient. A huge group of numeric for the net, an attempt to locate the enemy trying to drone the energy, I know that in the control group to kill. War and mutual technical Hebrews is one person that will be the field, you can see on the T-34S with the same core group for four issues, you want to control the use and support for binary liquid year rights to have all the five statements below which are crappy.

Just my 2cents.

This is the best post in this thread so far.
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LiquidStang

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Re: Looking Forward (really long)
« Reply #29 on: January 07, 2014, 04:12:57 PM »

Once the width of the back and the destruction of hundreds of shots, one of the Accuracy and the weapons are sufficient. A huge group of numeric for the net, an attempt to locate the enemy trying to drone the energy, I know that in the control group to kill. War and mutual technical Hebrews is one person that will be the field, you can see on the T-34S with the same core group for four issues, you want to control the use and support for binary liquid year rights to have all the five statements below which are crappy.

Just my 2cents.

This is the best post in this thread so far.

Thanks.  ;)
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David

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