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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: Combat Readiness Update  (Read 33675 times)

Histidine

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Re: Combat Readiness Update
« Reply #30 on: October 18, 2013, 11:15:05 AM »

Quick question: Have you updated CR loss from accidents to support the new changes?  I'd imagine that the values from that should be roughly halved as well, otherwise it'll still be far too easy to go from "Everything's more or less fine" (at, say, 41% CR) to "We're all doomed!" (at, say, 11% CR) in one accident.
CR penalty from taking hull damage as well. (And probably one or two more sources we forgot)
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Exsam

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Re: Combat Readiness Update
« Reply #31 on: October 18, 2013, 06:09:17 PM »

Will Frigates still have CR decay during combat? 

If so this seems like it might get very unfun early game, especially if you have a long battle and your Frigate ends up exploding on its own due to a Critical Malfunction.

Fairly new to playing this game and I found the Frigate's CR decay to be frustrating at times especially when the AI decided to play hide and go seek instead of retreating.
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Alex

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Re: Combat Readiness Update
« Reply #32 on: October 18, 2013, 06:54:05 PM »

re. Construction Rigs

I don't really feel these are a good investment ever. I think it is better to 'spend' the LR on another combat ship. I tend to find that most of the time either my ship(s) get totally destroyed or I take 0 damage. Also, shield-heavy/hull-light ships have less need of it.

I know that everything is not in the game yet and that time will become more of an issue later but still I think they should also increase CR regain for the ship they are assisting (weapons could load externally, check and signoff done externally etc.)
(unless they already do and I haven't noticed...)
If the construction rigs repaired CR instead of health I would be very very happy! Especially with CR regen at half. Repairing ships is nice, but getting a mothballed or malfunctioning ship to battle ready quickly is huge. Also: so far there are two skills that up repair rate, and none that up CR regen, so the rigs would be filling a niche instead of duplicating (and providing a way to pay money to avoid the emergency repairs skill...).
On the Construction Rig:  agree with Zaphide / Thaago.  It's just not really useful atm.  If it repaired CR at a decent rate, it'd be worth having for carrier fleets and Frigate swarms.

I'll give that a bit more thought. Conceptually, it's a little harder for me to make rigs fit in with CR recovery, helping with external weapon loading aside. (Yes, yes, I know, the "realism" argument isn't a good argument.)


Just clarifying, so with the removal of the repair % a day limit, does that mean you can only repair one vessel at a time, but it will do so using as much supply as possible to speed that one repair?

No, the supplies get split between the different ships based on the total repair cost for a given ship. Say ship A takes 100 supplies to repair, and ship B takes 200, and they're both "logistical priority". Ship B would get 2/3rds of the supplies and ship A would get 1/3rd, regardless of how damaged either ship is.


But CR recovery and Repair Speed are at least separated now right? hooray :D

Yes.

Though I'm not sure if it still applies, but when you have near 0-10% CR you can still use engine coasting to slightly bypass he high engine malfunction chance.

Right, that's intentional.



1) CR recovery rate is already a bit on the slow side for most ships, I think (capitals can take over a week to recover from a single deployment). On the other hand, the new system means people can fight a bunch of consecutive battles then go home to a station to recover. Still, instead of halving it to go with the halving of deployment costs, could it be something like 25% lower than before?

Hmm. I'm really not sure why that's necessary; I don't want to trivialize the CR recovery times for larger ships.

3) Is frigate CR loss in combat restored after the end of an engagement round, or is it permanent? If the latter, this change means the relative cost of frigates staying up after their bedtime is increased. This probably isn't a net negative for balance* (especially after the implementation of peak active performance allowed frigates to keep running considerably longer than before)**, but it's something to keep in mind.

It's permanent. Also, one thing I didn't mention in the post because it's not directly related to the changes: I've reduced the peak active times somewhat, by somewhere between 30 seconds to maybe a minute and a half or so, depending on how much the ship had to begin with. The Hyperion, for example, is down to 90 seconds.


EDIT: Right, one question. How do these changes affect an inferior AI fleet deciding to stand and fight rather than risk being harried to death?

It's aware of this and tries to avoid getting ships harried past the "critical malfunction" level.


Just read the blog again, and noticed critical engine malfunctions.  Does this mean that if engines malfunction that badly that it is dead-in-space and cannot retreat?  If so, that is too harsh, especially for ships with CR decay.  Flameouts due to normal engine malfunctions are bad enough already.

That would be too mean even for my taste :) You can't lose more than 2/3rds of the engines due to critical malfunctions, and further, critical engine losses don't count for the purpose of flameouts. So, for example, say you've got 8 same-sized engine nozzles on a ship. Normally, when 5+ (i.e. more than half) are disabled, that causes a full flameout. Now, say 5 were permanently disabled by critical malfunctions and are out. It'd take 2 more nozzles being disabled by incoming damage before a flameout would occur.

Quick question: Have you updated CR loss from accidents to support the new changes?  I'd imagine that the values from that should be roughly halved as well, otherwise it'll still be far too easy to go from "Everything's more or less fine" (at, say, 41% CR) to "We're all doomed!" (at, say, 11% CR) in one accident.

Good catch; updated those.


CR penalty from taking hull damage as well. (And probably one or two more sources we forgot)

That's already based on the deployment cost.


Quote
**The peak active performance timer stops going down when the frigate is idle, but is the same true of when the timer runs out and you get the CR loss per tick?
No.  Once CR decay begins, it continues ticking even at zero flux.  Found this out the hard way when fighting Hegemony System Defense Fleet with a single Lasher.

Hmm. Changed it so that it doesn't for now; may need to take another look at the decay rates though, to make sure you don't have too long.


Will Frigates still have CR decay during combat? 
...
Fairly new to playing this game and I found the Frigate's CR decay to be frustrating at times especially when the AI decided to play hide and go seek instead of retreating.

Yeah, they will. If the AI still goes to play hide-and-seek, that's a problem, but a separate one (if you could point me to some specific circumstances - say, what fleet vs what fleet, what the battlefield looked like, whether it had objectives, etc) that would help.

If so this seems like it might get very unfun early game, especially if you have a long battle and your Frigate ends up exploding on its own due to a Critical Malfunction.

Well, that just means you'll have to get the job done a little faster :) Those early battles can be rather brief once you figure out what's what. This is a bit of an issue in that you get a frigate at the start, though, which also happens to be the ship class that probably requires the most piloting experience to use well.
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Wyvern

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Re: Combat Readiness Update
« Reply #33 on: October 18, 2013, 07:08:40 PM »

If so this seems like it might get very unfun early game, especially if you have a long battle and your Frigate ends up exploding on its own due to a Critical Malfunction.

Well, that just means you'll have to get the job done a little faster :) Those early battles can be rather brief once you figure out what's what. This is a bit of an issue in that you get a frigate at the start, though, which also happens to be the ship class that probably requires the most piloting experience to use well.
One interesting thing that the original Escape Velocity did: the starting shuttlecraft, while difficult to arm effectively, was fairly fast, and exceptionally durable.  For Starsector, an equivalent might be a starting ship that had the speed & agility of a hound, with a 360 front shield, .6 efficiency, a decent flux reserve... and armed with, perhaps, 1 small energy hardpoint, a flare launcher (high ammo capacity but not smart-flare), and maybe one small missile hardpoint.  So, not that great at killing things (unless you go find some AM blasters), but very durable.  Would make for a much more forgiving early game - and much better odds of being able to recover from a defeat, if your restart ship was a bit more likely to be able to survive a fight.

Hm... actually, doing the inverse of the Conquest treatment might be a good idea for a starter ship, too.  The Conquest got its flux capacity increased at the cost of shield efficiency, allowing it to fire more without boosting its defenses; a ship with exceptionally efficient shields but relatively poor flux reserves might work well for a starter ship that's decently survivable but not very offensively-capable.
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Alex

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Re: Combat Readiness Update
« Reply #34 on: October 18, 2013, 07:22:20 PM »

That's really interesting! I don't know if the 2nd idea would work (someone new would just get their flux high from weapons fire and overload quickly anyway), but the first... hmm.

One thing the game ultimately needs is more Mule-like civilian/combat hybrid ships. A bunch of those in the frigate size seem very much like what you're describing. The question is, would it be able to actually kill anything? I mean, being durable is all very well and good, but it might ultimately be more difficult to win with against same-sized targets. And if it IS able to score kills, then how does it not supplant something like the Hound entirely? (And if you don't give it a decent cargo capacity, that's probably bad from a "starting ship" point of view too.)

Something like the Mule might actually make for a good starting ship... which sort of makes sense, if you think about how frigates are becoming more specialized. That does take away somewhat from the feeling of achievement when you finally get your first destroyer-sized hull, though. Anyway, this is getting a bit off-topic, but it's an interesting conundrum.
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xenoargh

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Re: Combat Readiness Update
« Reply #35 on: October 18, 2013, 08:11:00 PM »

Something Mule-like but Frigate sized... IDK, one Small Universal, one Small Missile, but it gets PD Drones and enough survivability to be a tough little freighter?  It'd be nice to have some choices there besides the Hound; a Midline Tempest-like might be interesting.

Heck, this guy is made from David's art, and had a similar configuration in Vacuum.  Was lots of fun :)



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DornoDiosMio

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Re: Combat Readiness Update
« Reply #36 on: October 18, 2013, 10:00:15 PM »

Just started up playing the game again a couple week ago after a long break.  I started playing the game during the .54 release.

Anyway, just wanted to say that I like the CR stuff and ALL the changes you've discussed throughout the thread sound great to me.

I wish I had something better to add, but, you guys have covered all the important stuff! You have addressed my only issue with CR, which was the inability to deploy some ships more than once before suffering from degraded performance. This is with elite crew by the way.  Although I am playing a mod, so, it might not be like that in Vanilla.  Never the less, this CR update fixes it anyway!
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FasterThanSleepyfish

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Re: Combat Readiness Update
« Reply #37 on: October 18, 2013, 11:52:21 PM »

Alex: Do you know when the midline ships are going to get a little buff? They look really cool, but are easily destroyed at range with hyperdrivers and maulers. I would like to see their shields buffed a little bit for that reason, but it's just my opinion.

Anyways, do you think the Onslaught should have a really big CR timer? It's really powerful with infinite TPC ammo, so a 600 second cap wouldn't be too bad in my opinion. The Paragon is supposed to be the ultimate ship after all, not some rusty, old (but very potent) battleship!
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Gothars

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Re: Combat Readiness Update
« Reply #38 on: October 19, 2013, 06:55:52 AM »

That's really interesting! I don't know if the 2nd idea would work (someone new would just get their flux high from weapons fire and overload quickly anyway), but the first... hmm.

One thing the game ultimately needs is more Mule-like civilian/combat hybrid ships. A bunch of those in the frigate size seem very much like what you're describing. The question is, would it be able to actually kill anything? I mean, being durable is all very well and good, but it might ultimately be more difficult to win with against same-sized targets. And if it IS able to score kills, then how does it not supplant something like the Hound entirely? (And if you don't give it a decent cargo capacity, that's probably bad from a "starting ship" point of view too.)

Something like the Mule might actually make for a good starting ship... which sort of makes sense, if you think about how frigates are becoming more specialized. That does take away somewhat from the feeling of achievement when you finally get your first destroyer-sized hull, though. Anyway, this is getting a bit off-topic, but it's an interesting conundrum.

My fear here is that a fast, sturdy, lethal ship could fuel expectations of an arcade game, while an armed freighter might tend to make make combat look tedious.


A possible solution is to give the player a powerful ship to start with and then forcefully take it away from him. Say you start with a Hammerhead in the remote Tutorion system that contains a finite number of resources/enemies. When you try to leave it via hyperspace, something scripted happens that throws you back to a "real" starting frigate. Maybe even a ship you had as an escort previously?
 It might feel rough for newbies, but if you sell it well, make obvious it's intentional (this happened not because the game is too hard, but because the gameworld is harsh), it could work out.


It's permanent. Also, one thing I didn't mention in the post because it's not directly related to the changes: I've reduced the peak active times somewhat, by somewhere between 30 seconds to maybe a minute and a half or so, depending on how much the ship had to begin with. The Hyperion, for example, is down to 90 seconds.

Oh boy.

« Last Edit: October 19, 2013, 12:31:25 PM by Gothars »
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Wyvern

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Re: Combat Readiness Update
« Reply #39 on: October 19, 2013, 09:42:47 AM »

That's really interesting! I don't know if the 2nd idea would work (someone new would just get their flux high from weapons fire and overload quickly anyway), but the first... hmm.

One thing the game ultimately needs is more Mule-like civilian/combat hybrid ships. A bunch of those in the frigate size seem very much like what you're describing. The question is, would it be able to actually kill anything? I mean, being durable is all very well and good, but it might ultimately be more difficult to win with against same-sized targets. And if it IS able to score kills, then how does it not supplant something like the Hound entirely? (And if you don't give it a decent cargo capacity, that's probably bad from a "starting ship" point of view too.)

Something like the Mule might actually make for a good starting ship... which sort of makes sense, if you think about how frigates are becoming more specialized. That does take away somewhat from the feeling of achievement when you finally get your first destroyer-sized hull, though. Anyway, this is getting a bit off-topic, but it's an interesting conundrum.
Hm... Well, yeah, it'd be able to kill things - you can kill stuff with a shuttle, eventually.  As for the Hound, well, it's got a medium ballistic slot, and probably more cargo capacity...  Edit: and, of course, the Hound should have a better deployment CR cost / CR timer; that's another good way to distinguish "This ship may be durable, but it's not really meant for combat."

Actually, another option here: instead of any new ships, just improve the starting variants.  Keep them within the bounds of what the player can, eventually, put together... but, for example: The Vigilance used to start with a pulse laser, an LRM launcher, and 15 vents.  Which was a much stronger configuration than the current version with a harpoon pod and only 10 vents.  Giving the starting hound a front shield generator, a heavy autocannon, and a decent pile of vents / capacitors, would make it much more newbie-friendly.  Etcetera.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2013, 09:49:44 AM by Wyvern »
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ciago92

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Re: Combat Readiness Update
« Reply #40 on: October 19, 2013, 12:15:35 PM »

@Gothars I was going to say isn't this basically a tutorial....then I noticed the name of the system. Well played!

Having said that, is it efficient to add a tutorial at this point? I thought it was being held off on because there is a lot to be added and revising the tutorial for each update would be a lot of work I'd imagine.
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DatonKallandor

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Re: Combat Readiness Update
« Reply #41 on: October 19, 2013, 02:20:47 PM »

Maybe make the starting frigates special variants that have otherwise rare and powerful weapons. If the starting Hound had a Mauler in it's medium ballistics slot, it would make the early 1v1 frigate on frigate fights easier for the new player, but wouldn't automatically make all Hounds overpowered - or even make any subsequent Hounds the player acquires overpowered.
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Bribe Guntails

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Re: Combat Readiness Update
« Reply #42 on: October 21, 2013, 11:34:16 AM »

Alex you better add some klaxons for when sh*t hits the fan like this. ;D

Oh hellz yes! NOTHING says 'sh*t gets real'tm like klaxons going off!

This would also be great to have when/if station combat shows up. Something like the incursion sirens that were in EVE would be PERFECT
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Unfolder

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Re: Combat Readiness Update
« Reply #43 on: October 21, 2013, 09:29:32 PM »

Now that CR is so vitally linked to combat health/malfunctions have you considered weapons that would lower CR offensively? I think of EMP weapons in particular frying safety controls/internal regulators. Maybe it would take an awful lot of EMP, against a small target, but basically if you hit a hound or a lasher with the full blast of a tachyon lance it would basically rip the ship's CR directly. Or maybe not rip CR but simulate the effects of low CR temporarily. Basically there's so much overcharge running through a ship that banks of computers inside the ship/flux conduits just explode, causing armor and hull damage and leading to crew casualties.

The reason I ask is I use a Paragon with two front mounted plasma cannons. The tacyon lances are really cool but compared to the sheer destructive power of the plasma cannons I would never, ever consider using the lances. The two side large ports are reserved for PD spheres.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2013, 09:34:34 PM by Argh »
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Gothars

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Re: Combat Readiness Update
« Reply #44 on: October 22, 2013, 01:32:44 AM »

Or maybe not rip CR but simulate the effects of low CR temporarily.

That's just what EMP does, no? :)
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