Fractal Softworks Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

Pages: 1 [2]

Author Topic: Boarding: remove ships escaping  (Read 8849 times)

Thaago

  • Global Moderator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 7173
  • Harpoon Affectionado
    • View Profile
Re: Boarding: remove ships escaping
« Reply #15 on: October 17, 2013, 07:59:05 PM »

...

That's a good point; this is coming up more as an unintended consequence of the increased base ship repair chance. Removed the chance for a clean escape in the "engage" option only (though the player's ship still has that chance). The enemy ship can still escape if you pick "launch assault teams from a distance", though - but not if you hard dock.

As for the other stuff, I think it's more of an issue with how relatively "meh" getting most ships is, given the current availability and low price of most ships. If it's literally the only way to get a Tempest (say, Tri-Tachyon hates you, you can't manufacture one, and the chances of finding one on the open market are slim and none), then all of a sudden the risks and effort would be worth it.

Also, in general terms, I don't agree with the sentiment against randomness. It's a popular thing to rail against, but if done properly, it can work very well.

In this case, again, the payoff needs to be a lot better, and it will be eventually. Also, the impact of randomness is reduced if you consider how it works across multiple boarding actions - basically, you roll the dice, but you do it with the long-term average results in mind. If you're counting on a specific boarding action being successful, that's a mistake or an act of desperation.

Cool! I can see how when ships are hard to get boarding will be more attractive and exciting. I think your last sentence really hits the nail on the head for why my point 1 mattered: while its rare to depend on the results of a boarding action, it is common to depend on getting loot from a destroyed ship, especially in the early game.

As always I think its fantastic how you listen and respond to the community!
Logged

Camael

  • Lieutenant
  • **
  • Posts: 70
    • View Profile
Re: Boarding: remove ships escaping
« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2013, 03:48:10 AM »

Removing the chance to get no loot at all because of a ship escaping... good. Thanks.  Now, two issues here:

First, I am getting the impression that blowing up a boardable ship does yield a lot less loot as well. On average. Punishes me for getting the random "chance" to board. Second, even if I send my marines and it says the ship was irreparably damaged I seem to get barely any weapons at all to collect. So first - am I just paranoid, is this intentional, or did someone miss something?
Second, if it's intentional, why? Blowing the ship up, okay. Making sure a heavily damaged ship does not get away, there is a good chance to accidentally obliterate it. But capturing it without it being usable later should at least get me "normal" loot, just... logic-wise...

Then the mechanic behind it is completely invisible. For example, I do not know how much damage a self destruct will do to my hard docked ships. Does it depend on the size of the boarded and boarding ships? On their general armor and hull? (I can't really just run lots of "tests" to figure that out, sorry, so I have to ask...) Also, if it does not, it should. Would make armor more interesting a feature as opposed to efficient shields that can be vented and reused in battle at will. Also it would finally give some meaning and sense to special "boarding transports" with thick hulls and massive crew capacity.


Finally I have to second that there should be a success/colatteral bar visible for boarding actions. Right now the chance to get a boardable "wreck" is rare and random. If I get the chance to capture something I actually want there should be a visible way to improve my chances not just by taking the risk of hard docking but by pouring in ressources.

Currently it's random (getting the boarding chance at all) x random (invisible, unpredictable success rates) x horrendous cost (how can marines eat so much anyway?). With these chances at hand I won't even carry marines when completely bored in the endgame. Please either remove some randomness, or better, give us a mechanic that reduces randomness by pouring in more ressources/specializing fleet and skills in boarding actions, or at least make the actual chances somewhat visible. Otherwise I'll just keep hitting that "engage" button and that would be sad. Really. Sad.



Also. Thanks for making the game I have been looking for since... uhm... ever. Awesome. Really.
Logged

Gothars

  • Global Moderator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 4403
  • Eschewing obfuscatory verbosity.
    • View Profile
Re: Boarding: remove ships escaping
« Reply #17 on: October 18, 2013, 12:34:54 PM »

Removed some posts to clear the thread up, sorry to those who tried to mediate here!
Logged
The game was completed 8 years ago and we get a free expansion every year.

Arranging holidays in an embrace with the Starsector is priceless.

PCCL

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 2016
  • still gunnyfreak
    • View Profile
Re: Boarding: remove ships escaping
« Reply #18 on: October 18, 2013, 12:49:09 PM »

First, I am getting the impression that blowing up a boardable ship does yield a lot less loot as well. On average.

never noticed that... does anyone else see this? Will run experiments when I get home

Quote
Then the mechanic behind it is completely invisible. For example, I do not know how much damage a self destruct will do to my hard docked ships. Does it depend on the size of the boarded and boarding ships? On their general armor and hull?

yes, more feedback would be nice, agreed there, also maybe a chance to withdraw the team at some point would be nice, kind of a mini dialogue of the operation

Something like this (a few possible scenarios)

Spoiler
-The assault team reports (light/medium/heavy) resistance. You order them to...
--Push through
--Hold for reinforcement (returns to the send people slider)
--Retreat

-The assault team finds a demolition charge, armed and about to detonate, (x) minutes are left on the clock, (enough/possibly enough/not enough) time for a clean evacuation. You order them to...
--Attempt to disarm it
--Push ahead and seek shelter
--Withdraw and evacuate the vessel

-The assault team reached the enemy bridge, their captain, (accompanied by (x) crew/standing alone), holds (his/her) hand over the self destruct button and threatens your team. You order them to...
--Negotiate
-----Listen to the captain's demands
-----Offer the captain a chance to join your crew
--Eliminate the captain and secure the bridge
--Back away slowly and evacuate the vessel
[close]

This adds some degree of suspense and giving the player more agency (a hidden chance to self destruct increases each "turn", if your team has been there for say 5 turns and still haven't secured the ship, might be best to leave)

PRE-POST EDIT: thanks Gothars :)
Logged
mmm.... tartiflette

Thaago

  • Global Moderator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 7173
  • Harpoon Affectionado
    • View Profile
Re: Boarding: remove ships escaping
« Reply #19 on: October 18, 2013, 01:24:41 PM »

I like that idea gunnyfreak. Still plenty of random chances, but those chances governed by an informed player.
Logged

BillyRueben

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1406
    • View Profile
Re: Boarding: remove ships escaping
« Reply #20 on: October 18, 2013, 03:09:54 PM »

Agreed with above. It would make boarding pretty cool too. You would just need a few more events than that I think.
Logged

Alex

  • Administrator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 23986
    • View Profile
Re: Boarding: remove ships escaping
« Reply #21 on: October 18, 2013, 03:37:34 PM »

I think your last sentence really hits the nail on the head for why my point 1 mattered: while its rare to depend on the results of a boarding action, it is common to depend on getting loot from a destroyed ship, especially in the early game.

Hah, hadn't made the connection, but yeah, good point there.

First, I am getting the impression that blowing up a boardable ship does yield a lot less loot as well. On average. Punishes me for getting the random "chance" to board. Second, even if I send my marines and it says the ship was irreparably damaged I seem to get barely any weapons at all to collect. So first - am I just paranoid, is this intentional, or did someone miss something?
Second, if it's intentional, why? Blowing the ship up, okay. Making sure a heavily damaged ship does not get away, there is a good chance to accidentally obliterate it. But capturing it without it being usable later should at least get me "normal" loot, just... logic-wise...

Huh, you're right. What happens is the ship gets repaired (which loses some of the weapons), and then when it's shot down it's disabled *again*, which loses more weapons.

Other loot, though, should be the same.

Then the mechanic behind it is completely invisible. For example, I do not know how much damage a self destruct will do to my hard docked ships. Does it depend on the size of the boarded and boarding ships? On their general armor and hull? (I can't really just run lots of "tests" to figure that out, sorry, so I have to ask...) Also, if it does not, it should. Would make armor more interesting a feature as opposed to efficient shields that can be vented and reused in battle at will. Also it would finally give some meaning and sense to special "boarding transports" with thick hulls and massive crew capacity.

The damage is roughly dependent on ship size (flux capacity, actually). So, right, using larger ships and/or installing hull/armor boosting hullmods helps with survival.

Also. Thanks for making the game I have been looking for since... uhm... ever. Awesome. Really.

:D


@gunnyfreak: You know, I've been thinking along the same lines. I just don't think it's worth fleshing out now, when the reward is so lackluster. Trying to design it so that it's fun in the current state would probably lead to different decisions than expanding it later. Always easier to expand something that's more or less a stub than to completely rework it, too.
Logged

PCCL

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 2016
  • still gunnyfreak
    • View Profile
Re: Boarding: remove ships escaping
« Reply #22 on: October 18, 2013, 06:31:14 PM »

Huh, you're right. What happens is the ship gets repaired (which loses some of the weapons), and then when it's shot down it's disabled *again*, which loses more weapons.

can that be changed? I don't know, I just feel something like this should be a good thing, even if we can't board
Logged
mmm.... tartiflette

Debido

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1183
    • View Profile
Re: Boarding: remove ships escaping
« Reply #23 on: December 21, 2013, 10:19:09 AM »

Is it terribly difficult to program a post-main-battle salvage mini-game? I was a fan of text adventures some twenty years ago when going through dungeons, but not for salvaging ships in a 2013 2D space shooter game.

It doesn't need to be terribly complicated:
    Phase one - scanning and evaluating
    • You fly around the debris fields from ship to ship scanning and evaluating whether a hull is salvageable, it tells you how many supplies to repair it as well. You have to have a ship with a 'salvage scanner' hull mod which you can deploy.
    • Some ships cannot be salvaged, depending on their damage, more hits with an EMP damage increases the chance of being salvageable (as posted previously). Ships can be entirely disabled with EMP damage, but have a greater chance of the inside crew repairing in time and getting away.
    • When you scan a ship that is salvageable, it will tell you how many is on board. You then need a troop ship class ship to board it.
    Phase 2 - Boarding
    • You then transfer your command ship to the troop ship (troop ship can have salvage scanner) and pilot it close enough to send troops. You will be prompted to press a key when close enough to send boarding shuttles, and a different key to hard dock when hovering above it.
    • When docked/close enough you have 2 weapons. Weapon 1 is marines, weapon 2 is regular crew with the numbers available to send, you left click and hold to send in crew until it's captured
    • When sending marines from afar it sends up to a dozen at a time in shuttle craft
    • Whilst boarding you see the enemy crew numbers go down gradually over time, you can have SFX and voice overs and little explosions popping over the top of the salvage ship. Give the player some feedback.
    • If the enemy ship wasn't damaged as much/used EMP, or is a larger/more valuable ship and has more surviving crew - then after scanning you might see a timer denoting how much time you have to board the ship before
    •     A) The enemy crew powers up the burn drive and they jet off at 616su/s
    •     B) The infernium drive reaches critical mass and blows up due to damage or enemy crew sabotage
    • If the infernium drive blows, how much damage it does depends on whether you can get your shields up in time :D, you cannot send marines with your shield up
    • If the enemy crew gets the ship running in time, you have a limited time for your other ships to damage it before it gets away.
    • If the enemy crew gets the ship running in time, and you still have marines on board they will still gradually take the enemy crew down. They have until the enemy ship gets to the boarder of the map to take it over...otherwise they get vented out the airlock
    Balancing
    • Larger ships almost always have larger compliments of crew
    • Larger troop ships can have more troops on board and send troops faster
    • If you send a small troop ship to hard dock a large ship with lots of crew, they can overwhelm your team,board your troop ship,and get away, whilst leaving their ships infernium drive to go critical.
      • Troop ships of a larger class can hard dock with much smaller class ships, essential pulling them inside (underneath)
      • Destroyer class or greater troop ships can instantly capture fighters/bombers by hard docking
      • Cruiser class or greater troop ships can instantly capture fighters/bombers and frigates in 20 seconds
      • Capital class or greater troop ships can instantly capture fighters/bombers, frigates 10 and destroyers in 30
      • You can have a timer on all salvageable ships, so a ship you're not boarding and not focussing on may get away


      This at the very least would be a far more professional presentation of a boarding game without needing to go to extreme lengths, and is rendered entirely within the current engine using the majority of current assets. I wouldn't be surprised if a modder could achieve this in a weekend.

      This mini-game:
      • Puts emphasis on player skill, resource usage and time management
      • Let's players choose which ships they prioritise for salvage, how many troops they send, if they should even salvage it in the first place based upon time left
      • Makes the advanced tactics skill relevant, and you should probably have a few extra level of boarding force effectiveness
      • Empowers the player and let's them be a part of the fantasy
      • Is balanced enough to reward the player if they're skilful, and penalises them if they're not

      Alex, what would be the estimated man hours required to accomplish this?
    Logged

    Shield

    • Commander
    • ***
    • Posts: 207
      • View Profile
    Re: Boarding: remove ships escaping
    « Reply #24 on: January 04, 2014, 04:19:06 AM »

    Also don't forget to change who would blow up ships, so many times have I boarded a ship to have that mofo explode, why even make that RNG related?
    Logged

    Debido

    • Admiral
    • *****
    • Posts: 1183
      • View Profile
    Re: Boarding: remove ships escaping
    « Reply #25 on: January 05, 2014, 03:42:35 AM »

    Mmmm, yes I often destroy the enemy vessel and take the loot. It's more valuable to me than risking destroying another good ship with near full CR and full health. The supply cost of repairing a ship, putting on crew, fueling it and bringing it's CR back up to full is sometimes more than it's worth.
    Logged
    Pages: 1 [2]