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Author Topic: Increased Fire Rate's effect on Charge and Beam weapons  (Read 8720 times)

Borgoid

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Increased Fire Rate's effect on Charge and Beam weapons
« on: September 29, 2013, 11:51:37 AM »

Basically... I have no freaking idea how the rate of fire increases from CR and skills apply to weapons with Charges and beam weapons.

For Beam weapons it makes sense for the dps to increase but it's hard to say.

For weapons with charges ( Burst PD, Autopulse Laser ect ) that recharge just how effective is the fire rate increase and is it increasing their recharge rate?


It's not especially important for vanilla weapons but for modded weapons like say the Pulsed Beam Cannon from the Neutrino mod which have only one charge, or the entire set of CEPC weapons from the Shadowyards mod which all use recharging mechanics it's really important.

At the end of the day I want to know if I'm getting a dps increase out of fire rate bonuses for those weapons or whether it's simply wasted once the recharge rate dps bottleneck occurs.
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Alex

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Re: Increased Fire Rate's effect on Charge and Beam weapons
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2013, 12:05:21 PM »

For regular beam weapons, it has no effect. For burst beam weapons, it reduces the interval between each burst, but does not affect the recharge rate. So, it's only of marginal use for most beam weapons.
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Borgoid

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Re: Increased Fire Rate's effect on Charge and Beam weapons
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2013, 12:11:36 PM »

I had a feeling that would be the case. Thanks for the quick response!

Interesting from a balance and ship design standpoint :)



Edit: Hold on a second... This is pants-on-head-silly.

High CR gives no bonuses to beams. Fire rate is wasted, so is Autofire accuracy.
Neither does the 10th point in Gunnery Implants, and I'm suspicious about points in Target Analysis.

I'm already a bit dubious about the overall power of 1-1 soft flux generating weapons as-is, having them scale poorly is a bit annoying.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2013, 01:24:36 PM by Borgoid »
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cell

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Re: Increased Fire Rate's effect on Charge and Beam weapons
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2013, 01:42:50 PM »

honestly i think they should function just as you were questioning. it should increase the dps (and flux per second) of regular laser beams and increase the number of recharges per minute for burst pd lasers (and possibly even increase the shots per minute for the tachyon lance).

id say the burst pd lasers are in a good place as is (besides the guardian) but normal laser beams are underpowered imo. sure they have good range and are extremely flux efficient, but their dps is a sad joke compared to projectile based energy weapons.

i dont believe a increase in beam weapon effectiveness would do much harm considering that bonus is already applied to all other weapons. in fact the most ai ships can get is a 12% increase (80% CR). the player ship could potentially get up to a 50% bonus however (100% CR + lvl 10 Gunnery Implants). assuming the bonus is additive of course.
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Verrius

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Re: Increased Fire Rate's effect on Charge and Beam weapons
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2013, 09:45:59 PM »

The idea behind the skills, I'd assume, is that the ROF increases are as a result of your character optimizing the systems so the guns can just fire faster.

With a beam, that doesn't make sense. Having skills that might increase the potency of beams might be cool (Do we have any? I haven't actually checked) but keeping them separate just makes sense.

And let's be honest, it's a lot easier to aim a laser than it is to aim a gun, so it also makes sense for accuracy bonuses to be irrelevant to beams. Although beam recoil with burst lasers would be kinda cool. I wonder if that's possible now?

Andy H.K.

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Re: Increased Fire Rate's effect on Charge and Beam weapons
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2013, 11:01:11 PM »

I'd like to point out that an increase in DPS by boosting ROF also lead to a rise in flux generation so it's not completely without drawbacks.

Another point is that most beam weapons receive the supercharge bonus so in a sense, while their flux ratio start at 1-1, they are getting more and more powerful as your flux pool increase.
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Borgoid

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Re: Increased Fire Rate's effect on Charge and Beam weapons
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2013, 02:25:27 AM »

The idea behind the skills, I'd assume, is that the ROF increases are as a result of your character optimizing the systems so the guns can just fire faster.

With a beam, that doesn't make sense. Having skills that might increase the potency of beams might be cool (Do we have any? I haven't actually checked) but keeping them separate just makes sense.

And let's be honest, it's a lot easier to aim a laser than it is to aim a gun, so it also makes sense for accuracy bonuses to be irrelevant to beams. Although beam recoil with burst lasers would be kinda cool. I wonder if that's possible now?

If you're after some sort of " real " lore based explanation for increased fire rate on a beam based weapon... you shouldn't.

It doesn't bother you that the only bonus a beam based ship gains at high/max CR is damage reduction?



I'd like to point out that an increase in DPS by boosting ROF also lead to a rise in flux generation so it's not completely without drawbacks.

Another point is that most beam weapons receive the supercharge bonus so in a sense, while their flux ratio start at 1-1, they are getting more and more powerful as your flux pool increase.


Of course , but in most cases ballistic weapons are used for burst damage to either overwhelm shields or exploit a lowered shield. Cramming more damage into those crucial moments is a huge bonus.

That's true but have you sat down and compared the numbers between ballistic and energy based weapons?
A Tactical laser for example does a maximum of 112.5 dps ( 75 base, +50% from MAX flux) which is a 0.66(r) Flux->Damage ratio, which is great!
However that's not particularly reasonable, very few ships are willing to sit on maximum flux, or are even capable of doing so with all weapons firing so often weapons are only firing in short bursts, so lets lower that number down to 25%. Which brings the dps up to 93.75 and a 0.8 flux/damage ratio.

Now compared to a Dual Autocannon, the same OP cost, the same range, 143 dps, 1-1 flux/damage ratio. At Max CR and with the appropriate skill ( assuming it's additive) you can get a 50% fire rate increase, bringing the dps up to 214, still at a 1-1 ratio.

The total dps per slot is significantly better for ballistic weapons, not only that but they all have the benefit of causing HARD flux which can force the inevitability of lowering shields, overloading, venting, increasing their potential damage even further without the downside of requiring high flux to maintain efficiency and damage.
It's also worth noting that Ballistic weapons for the most part do Kinetic or High Explosive damage with only one exception that comes to mind, while Beams all do energy damage (Except the Graviton).
2 Tactical lasers vs 1 Dual Autocannon and 1 Light Assault Gun at MAX CR and appropriate skill
187.5 dps, .8 ratio VS 214 Kinetic, 240 high explosive, 1-1 ratio... So vs shields it does 548 dps at a 0.82 ratio against shields and vs armor it does 587 dps at a 0.773 ratio. All the while generating hard flux.
Quick reminder that LOWER flux->damage ratios are better

That's a pretty crazy difference : /
« Last Edit: September 30, 2013, 02:28:58 AM by Borgoid »
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Megas

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Re: Increased Fire Rate's effect on Charge and Beam weapons
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2013, 06:38:09 AM »

Low damage plus no hard flux is why I do not use beams on high-tech ships aside from killing fighters and missiles, with the exception of the starter Wolf because it has nothing better (and the other ship choices do not start with weapons that let them kite effectively).  I may use beams on mid-line ships (namely Hammerhead, Falcon, and Eagle) because I can rely on ballistics to kill and use beams as a filler.
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Midnight Kitsune

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Re: Increased Fire Rate's effect on Charge and Beam weapons
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2013, 06:43:08 PM »

I have to ask Alex, WHAT exactly did beams do that made him hate them so much! I find that it is BS that they don't get the boosts that all the other weapons do get! *holds up a picket sign saying 'Beams are weapons too!!'*
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Hotshot3434

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Re: Increased Fire Rate's effect on Charge and Beam weapons
« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2013, 09:31:54 PM »

A way the beam weapons could be balanced out is if their EMP damage had some bleedthrough on shields (nothing extreme, just a few weapon malfunctions and minor flame-outs). This would allow them to fulfill their role as a support weapon despite their drawbacks.
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thebrucolac

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Re: Increased Fire Rate's effect on Charge and Beam weapons
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2013, 10:20:08 PM »

I think it would be cool if your skill made more efficient use of flux buildup for damage. So instead of capping the damage bonus at 50%, you could eventually go up to 70% with enough skill. That retains the flux overcharge mechanic so you don't have beam weapons that are impossible to withstand.
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Verrius

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Re: Increased Fire Rate's effect on Charge and Beam weapons
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2013, 10:35:18 PM »

If you're after some sort of " real " lore based explanation for increased fire rate on a beam based weapon... you shouldn't.

It doesn't bother you that the only bonus a beam based ship gains at high/max CR is damage reduction?
Why shouldn't I?
Should I be bothered?

I do in fact have an opinion beyond that for the second part, but the aggression makes me not want to bother. If your not even going to explain why you feel that way and just say "You shouldn't think like that because you just shouldn't" it's not really worth an answer.

Borgoid

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Re: Increased Fire Rate's effect on Charge and Beam weapons
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2013, 10:34:22 PM »

That's not aggression.

You shouldn't try to hijack a mechanics based discussion on the basis of LORE or STORY. I mean for pitties sake you're playing a 2d space game.


As to whether or not it should bother you, it's an inexplicable balance issue. If you don't give a crap about the mechanics then what're you even doing here O.o
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Gothars

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Re: Increased Fire Rate's effect on Charge and Beam weapons
« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2013, 04:02:36 AM »

That's not aggression.
If you don't give a crap about the mechanics then what're you even doing here O.o

Now you are getting a little too aggressive, though. Better stop now.


You shouldn't try to hijack a mechanics based discussion on the basis of LORE or STORY. I mean for pitties sake you're playing a 2d space game.

Seeing things from a lore perspective is perfectly valid and does not equal "hijacking". Of course the game mechanics come first, but they don't exist in a vacuum. Uh, except that of space.


 
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Andy H.K.

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Re: Increased Fire Rate's effect on Charge and Beam weapons
« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2013, 04:54:47 AM »

If I were to grant beam weapons a CR bonus I'd probably consider direct increase in damage (clear optical system lead to sharper focusing and less energy loss) or reduction in flux generation (cooling system/heat sink working properly).

IMO Whether beam are weak actually comes down to each individual weapon itself - the more I think of it the more I find DPS comparison to be beside the point. We've seen some pretty nasty beams in mods (eg. neutrino, Freespace 2, Fairy Empire), and the fact that such powerful beam weapons being so difficult to respond to (accurate, continuous, no "wasted" damage on an overload shot, either receive the flux or take it on armor), not to mention their utility made me think the stat on the vanilla beams to be quite fair.
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