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Author Topic: Offline fighters should only deal damage once  (Read 12400 times)

Alex

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Re: Offline fighters should only deal damage once
« Reply #30 on: January 10, 2014, 11:38:27 AM »

Doesn't relative velocity determine how mass vs. mass damage works, though? 

I'm thinking that Piranha was maybe doing, what, a few SU/sec when it ploughed through that Apogee, so it's not a really fair test, unless you got up to full speed before slamming into it.  I think taking a look at the mass/velocity/damage equation and plugging in the values for a full-speed run over several frames might be a better way to model that.

Tried that too, no real difference. Also, the relative velocity only matters for the first frame of the collision, since it'll be drastically changed by it on subsequent frames.
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CopperCoyote

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Re: Offline fighters should only deal damage once
« Reply #31 on: January 10, 2014, 12:02:14 PM »

Hmm. I haven't been seeing this, myself - despite encountering the "fighter disabled mid-pass" situation multiple times, so I decided to run a quick test.

What I did is put a Piranha bomber on top of an Apogee, then deployed the Apogee's drones. The Piranha's engines were knocked out by the ion cannons, and it got pushed out of the Apogee's bounds while dealing damage. The total damage dealt to the Apogee was something like... 40? 50? And it was pushed out lengthwise, not sideways, so it was close to the worst possible.

Are you guys seeing this with vanilla ships, or only modded ones? The collision damage heavily depends on the relative masses of ships, so if a mod's ship masses are out of line with vanilla values, that could cause problems.

The other two possibilities are that I'm either not reproducing quite the correct scenario, though I just tried it a few more times, or that I'd fixed it between the last release and now, though I don't recall doing so.

(By the way, the way I did this was using Run Simulation in dev mode. You can tell the Apogee to hold fire, deploy the Piranha wing, unpause, press Ctrl-F to turn off fog of war, select the piranha wing in the command UI, press F4 twice to destroy two of the fighters (must be unpaused to work), press F3 to take over the lone surviving one, maneuver it over to the desired position over Apogee, take over the Apogee, and deploy the drones.)

Were your shields up? That's how the disabled fighters are most dangerous. Because each bump is kinetic it does double damage. It adds up really fast.

An interesting thing I've noticed about dead (or offlined) fighter hulls bumping your shield is that it happens substantially more often while your ship (or shield) is turning. It's really obvious with Shadowyards ships because most of them have large frontal shields and turn rather quickly. You can test this just fine with an Apogee and the 3 talon fighter wings though. Just sit with your shields raised while stationary, and then again while turning in place. The damage done by the vulcans will steadily grow and the fighters bumps will be sudden spikes.
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Wyvern

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Re: Offline fighters should only deal damage once
« Reply #32 on: January 10, 2014, 12:03:14 PM »

Hmm. I haven't been seeing this, myself - despite encountering the "fighter disabled mid-pass" situation multiple times, so I decided to run a quick test.

What I did is put a Piranha bomber on top of an Apogee, then deployed the Apogee's drones. The Piranha's engines were knocked out by the ion cannons, and it got pushed out of the Apogee's bounds while dealing damage. The total damage dealt to the Apogee was something like... 40? 50? And it was pushed out lengthwise, not sideways, so it was close to the worst possible.
Wait - pushed out?  As in, the Piranha survived in this scenario?  Something's definitely different in your test, then - when I get home I'll have to work out a simulator match-up that demonstrates what I'm seeing.
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Alex

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Re: Offline fighters should only deal damage once
« Reply #33 on: January 10, 2014, 12:07:46 PM »

Yeah, it did. Even gave it another try with the very same Piranha and it survived *that* one, too.
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Wyvern

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Re: Offline fighters should only deal damage once
« Reply #34 on: January 10, 2014, 12:32:30 PM »

Wow.  I don't think I've ever seen a fighter live if its engines go out over a cruiser+ ship.  And that's where most of the damage comes from - the fighter's whole health & armor total (and then the health of its dead husk) getting applied against the shields or armor of the target.  If the individual hits are small enough that the fighter isn't just going poof-gone, then maybe this has been fixed without needing specific don't-hit-multiple-times code.
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Linnis

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Re: Offline fighters should only deal damage once
« Reply #35 on: January 10, 2014, 09:45:12 PM »

I had an broadsword go on burn drive and crash right in to my condor's side, (don't ask what I was doing flying a condor) the broadsword simply exploded on contact since it was so fast but I barely took more then 100 armor damage.

The point being wouldn't the fighter be destroyed outright before even managing to do that much damage? Is not like its crashing in to you at 2k speed or something to where the first hit frame can do torpedo damage.

If you get the feeling that it don't make sense, Think of it as the fighter crashes in to the ship, but its glancing angle causes it to hit more ship structures, and so on...
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harrumph

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Re: Offline fighters should only deal damage once
« Reply #36 on: January 11, 2014, 02:28:20 PM »

Come on—don't you guys remember Return of the Jedi?
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Alex

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Re: Offline fighters should only deal damage once
« Reply #37 on: January 11, 2014, 02:55:35 PM »

That scene is 100% responsible for fighters changing collision class when their engines are disabled. 100%.
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Gothars

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Re: Offline fighters should only deal damage once
« Reply #38 on: January 11, 2014, 07:05:45 PM »

Hehe, in full:
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FlashFrozen

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Re: Offline fighters should only deal damage once
« Reply #39 on: January 11, 2014, 09:24:57 PM »

I do notice that dead/wreck/flamed out fighter do a relatively large amount of damage to my modded ships, I'll post a screenie if i ever come across it again, Even in my neutrino ships with 0.4 shields i've taken 900-1000 damage on shields and 2-300 on armor

Edit:

Spoiler
Note the one disabled talon out of the 4 hitting the shields, at 0.4 shields this would of been a 1355 dmg kinetic hit.


Note the one blue disabled talon


Poof, hits for 330

[close]

Pretty sure it just boils down to the ship getting collided with having a larger mass gets disproportionate amount of damage, as is the usual with asteroid collisions,
A simple fix would be to balance collision damage around weight.

(1 - individual weight / combined weight)

a 1000 mass ship vs a 200 mass ship

combine them together in the damage calculation AND then split it to both parties relatively to their masses.

so if the collision was to of generated a 600 dmg collision for both sides, the 1000 mass ship would receive 100 while the 200 mass ship receives 500 damage.
 (combined weight * relative speed^2)
« Last Edit: January 13, 2014, 01:41:35 AM by FlashFrozen »
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Alex

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Re: Offline fighters should only deal damage once
« Reply #40 on: January 13, 2014, 02:09:32 PM »

Alright, I ended up looking at this in more detail than I really planned to, so might as well tell you guys about it.

The number of collisions per second between two objects is limited to 4, so it's definitely not doing damage every frame.

One place where I can see the damage getting out of hand is if the fighter was spinning *very* rapidly. That contributes to the velocity at the point of contact, and could be arbitrarily high. Just now, capped this value to 600 (which is the maximum collidable speed).

Another possible cause is very high mass for either of the ships, since the damage is based on the sum of the masses. It's advisable for mods to stay within the mass ranges for vanilla ships. This isn't the only reason, as the whole collision handling system is likely to run into problems if the masses get too high. For example, if a ship was massive enough, you might be able to drive it right through another ship, causing massive damage in the process. Which sounds kind of reasonable, except that it'll look very odd when it happens.

@Flash Frozen: I think I actually considered that very thing when first implementing this. It seems to make sense at first glance, but I don't think it actually does. The larger ship will usually take less damage because it has more armor, so that's already covered. Imagine a hugely massive ship made out of glass, though - why should that take less damage just because it's bigger?

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FlashFrozen

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Re: Offline fighters should only deal damage once
« Reply #41 on: January 13, 2014, 07:30:02 PM »


@Flash Frozen: I think I actually considered that very thing when first implementing this. It seems to make sense at first glance, but I don't think it actually does. The larger ship will usually take less damage because it has more armor, so that's already covered. Imagine a hugely massive ship made out of glass, though - why should that take less damage just because it's bigger?


Why should they take less? Because smaller ships don't take enough.

Edit: scrap all that
I think it just feels kind of strange, everytime I see a fighter collide with a capital ship, it feels like it's the capital ship that's damaging itself, the fighter has no role in it.

Fighters colliding into frigates is completely negligible ( 10 - 40 dmg) since the fighters have no mass to inflict damage.

Fighters colliding with capitals produces notable damage because the capitals ships are the one with mass, that's the only factor they recieve so much damage and everything under a certain weight bounces rocks/wrecks/fighters for single/double digits.

It just makes me wanna question, Is it really the fighter that's doing the damage? This makes me kinda question the collision mechanics a bit, fighters collions should do a appreciable amount of damage to whatever they collide with, I'd be fine if capitals took in the current amount of damage only if the lighter ships took just as much.


TLDR: Fighters collisions don't do damage to what they are supposed to. 
« Last Edit: January 16, 2014, 10:43:13 PM by FlashFrozen »
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xenoargh

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Re: Offline fighters should only deal damage once
« Reply #42 on: January 13, 2014, 07:33:09 PM »

Quote
Imagine a hugely massive ship made out of glass, though - why should that take less damage just because it's bigger?
Because, if it's made of glass that's strong enough and thick enough to keep it from shattering due to shearing forces caused by torque every time it turns or accelerates / decelerates, it's still much, much stronger than a tiny ship also made of that super-strong glass.  

To put it into perspective, if a battleship runs over a speedboat, the net damage to the battleship (in game terms) is zero (at most, it'd have scuffed paint), but the speedboat is totally destroyed.  Or, to use the glass example, throw a wineglass at an inch-thick chunk of plate glass.  Mass matters.

That said, a fighter has a lot more potential energy than the speedboat due to velocity (in reality, if we're caring at all about realism, fighters are moving at relativistic velocities), and we should expect it to hurt a lot; after all, if we take David's picture of a Hound as a reference, then even the lowly Talon is as bulky as a real-world F111 and we should expect it to mass considerably more.  So if we compare it to Kinetic munitions, its mass is several hundred to several thousand times more but its velocity is less than half and it's not optimized to be an attack projectile (let's presume that in the SS universe, just throwing bullets at shields doesn't work, never mind those machine-guns, they're actually gauss rifles with huge velocities compared to modern weapons).

I think a better way to represent this is to take velocity into the equation, but also figure in mass as a differential; a larger ship should be inherently more resistant to incoming damage.  

However, the Armor mechanics in the game already simulate that... so I'm still in the "not a real problem" camp; if anything, I think it should be more damaging and more visually spectacular when a fighter careens into a ship's hull.  And if people don't like that, then they should be investing in the kind of AAA that destroys incoming fighters utterly, or at least have that option and then pick something different, whereupon we can say, fairly, "you had a choice".  

I think that's part of the problem here; in Vanilla, there aren't really any weapons equivalent to a :  an expensive weapon with ammo problems that is poor at killing heavily-armored targets... but that is blazing death to incoming PD targets.  

Since I kind of expect fighters and carrier warfare to continue to get buffed a little more (since they're still too inefficient vs. the alternatives, cost-wise, imho) I'd also kind of expect to see a modern-looking AA weapon show up.  It's not hard to balance one, even in Vanilla; it'd basically just be a Thumper with a faster turn-rate, range tweaks and some rebal with an auto-fire AI optimized for an AA role (using the ANTI_FIGHTER AI hint).
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CopperCoyote

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Re: Offline fighters should only deal damage once
« Reply #43 on: January 13, 2014, 09:17:15 PM »

One place where I can see the damage getting out of hand is if the fighter was spinning *very* rapidly. That contributes to the velocity at the point of contact, and could be arbitrarily high. Just now, capped this value to 600 (which is the maximum collidable speed).


Ahh. The rotation may explain why it does more damage while your ship or shield is turning.
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