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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

Poll

How viable do you think fighters are?

Fighters are alright as is
- 7 (23.3%)
Too much supply drain, otherwise ok
- 17 (56.7%)
Subpar, but still useable
- 2 (6.7%)
Close to worst possible use of logistics points
- 4 (13.3%)

Total Members Voted: 30

Voting closed: September 30, 2013, 09:38:23 PM


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Author Topic: Fighters viability  (Read 4452 times)

TaLaR

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Fighters viability
« on: September 16, 2013, 09:38:23 PM »

Personally, i pretty much never used them.
Even before introduction of skills and systems other ships seemed better at practically every role for their Fleet Points weight (frigates faster/stronger for capture, larger ships simply for combat).
With introduction of skills/systems balance got skewed even farther against fighters.
Now indestructible wings are supposed to help fighters, BUT their logistics costs are just crippling...

So, i want to know what the rest of community think about fighters.
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PCCL

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Re: Fighters viability
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2013, 09:45:59 PM »

bad, supply wise I already did a little personal fix (calculate them per wing instead of per ship), but combat wise they're just not that great (as frontliners anyway)

I'm also experimenting with a universal speed boost for fighters, either 1.5x or 2x... This makes them epic chasers and a great rapid response force to keep next to your carrier (fighter rendezvous) and send at whichever front that needs a little boost

there's also very little things quite like watching a double speed dagger wing rush past a dominator, unloading reapers along the way :3
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Andy H.K.

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Re: Fighters viability
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2013, 09:51:53 PM »

Hmmm? Why is there no options for "better than before"?

Let me think back..... 0.50, when there's not even a fleet point cap, what I do is usually mass fighters because they didn't drag down your travel speed like a certain capital ship does. Replacing them could be a problem because at times they are always out of stock.

then came 0.54 where skills are introduced. Limited fleet points and lack of skill support means fight use are minimized.

And now 0.60.... with new fighter logistic mechanics coupled with the streamlined shop stocking, I find myself once again more willing to use fighters since no longer will I suffer a ~10k setback every time I lose a bomber wing because they're too slow in their bombing run, or a fighter wing picking a wrong target to engage.

Although I do stay away from wasp wings, those heavy fighters and bombers are in fact quite manageable.... Possibly because I've been bringing freighters back when accident was introduced.
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ciago92

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Re: Fighters viability
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2013, 11:15:20 PM »

yeah honestly I like them even better thanks to the flight deck change. the supplies may need a little balanced but it's negligible once you pass early-midgame. My fleet is 2 thunders 2 gladius 2 warthog and 2 piranha with an Apogee, Atlas, Gemini and (Neutrino mod) TheEND carrier. total is 59 logistics but they're really not that bad supply wise. I think people just need to get better managing when to send them into battle. Whenever I harry a group down to 0 cr I literally send in only one or both warthogs and that's it and I still ruin pretty much everything and get multiple hundreds of supplies back. I really think they're a great investment if you've got flight decks to cover them and you use them right
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PCCL

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Re: Fighters viability
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2013, 11:17:13 PM »

ya, way better than before, to be quite fair... especially with more carrier support

just still not quite there yet imo, we'll see
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BonhommeCarnaval

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Re: Fighters viability
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2013, 11:29:59 PM »

I tried using an Astral with a bunch of Broadsword wings earlier today. I wanted them to attack the enemies one at a time, super aggressively like a swarm of angry bees. What actually happened is that they cruised around, hesitant, with no purpose and not posing a threat. They were so ridiculously passive that most of them died before they could get a shot off. They were on Search & Destroy.

Back to flying an actual capital ship and ignoring fighters as they should be. They're irrelevant after an hour or 2 of playtime.
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ciago92

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Re: Fighters viability
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2013, 11:46:23 PM »

I tried using an Astral with a bunch of Broadsword wings earlier today. I wanted them to attack the enemies one at a time, super aggressively like a swarm of angry bees. What actually happened is that they cruised around, hesitant, with no purpose and not posing a threat. They were so ridiculously passive that most of them died before they could get a shot off. They were on Search & Destroy.

Back to flying an actual capital ship and ignoring fighters as they should be. They're irrelevant after an hour or 2 of playtime.

search and destroy is the wrong thing to have them on then. if you want them to all attack one target at a time use Engage on one target at a time and everything available will swarm that target
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PCCL

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Re: Fighters viability
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2013, 11:48:47 PM »

ya, S&D isn't really what you'd want to do unless the enemy is too spread out and you have trouble finding them (hence the search part)
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BonhommeCarnaval

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Re: Fighters viability
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2013, 11:49:31 PM »

I tried using an Astral with a bunch of Broadsword wings earlier today. I wanted them to attack the enemies one at a time, super aggressively like a swarm of angry bees. What actually happened is that they cruised around, hesitant, with no purpose and not posing a threat. They were so ridiculously passive that most of them died before they could get a shot off. They were on Search & Destroy.

Back to flying an actual capital ship and ignoring fighters as they should be. They're irrelevant after an hour or 2 of playtime.

search and destroy is the wrong thing to have them on then. if you want them to all attack one target at a time use Engage on one target at a time and everything available will swarm that target

I tried that too, they were still extremely hesitant and still died one wing at a time without accomplishing anything. I've only given it a few tries but it's not looking good.
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Hotshot3434

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Re: Fighters viability
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2013, 11:51:45 PM »

I tried using an Astral with a bunch of Broadsword wings earlier today. I wanted them to attack the enemies one at a time, super aggressively like a swarm of angry bees. What actually happened is that they cruised around, hesitant, with no purpose and not posing a threat. They were so ridiculously passive that most of them died before they could get a shot off. They were on Search & Destroy.

Back to flying an actual capital ship and ignoring fighters as they should be. They're irrelevant after an hour or 2 of playtime.

search and destroy is the wrong thing to have them on then. if you want them to all attack one target at a time use Engage on one target at a time and everything available will swarm that target
With only 3 command points without any skills, these commands become very valuable. Without proper skill allocation the fighters tend to be useless. I tried to make a low-mid tech carrier fleet earlier and was totally stomped by the massive supply drain, constant lack of CR, extremely high logistics cost, and the general stupidity of the AI. Given a destroyer, cruiser, or capital ship the AI is able to hold its own against most opponents, but when given a wing of fighters or bombers, the AI tends to develop a strategy of "swarm around the ship without shooting it whilst waiting to get shot to pieces."
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PCCL

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Re: Fighters viability
« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2013, 11:54:29 PM »

tbf... If you want to go adama mode with carriers, you better have a LOT of leadership skill anyway (hey, it's not like you're gonna be doing too much fighting with your OWN ship...)

that said though, some more leadership skills for fighter command would be great

extremely high logistic cost is already being addressed afaik, waiting for 0.6.1a on this one
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Borgoid

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Re: Fighters viability
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2013, 11:54:40 PM »

They were so ridiculously passive that most of them died before they could get a shot off.

I've had similar experiences with fighters but there seems to be some sort of trigger that sets them to what I like to call " Kill all the things " mode at which point they become suicidally aggressive. Even Frigates occasionally do something similar though I couldn't tell you why.
It's possible it's something along the lines of the " Hey I can take advantage of this " Ai that all ships show when you turn your back to them. Hounds for example will close the distance with Lashers if you rotate your back to them even though the Lasher is a much stronger combatant up close and has range and speed issues.

Personally I've had the most success with bomber wings, their AI is a lot more straight forward and they're keen to attack anything bigger than a frigate>

Also if you actually bother to tell them to attack things then they'll do as they're told.
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Psygnosis

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Re: Fighters viability
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2013, 01:48:57 AM »

i didnt experience too much issue with supplies when i was going well. (i hear alot of horror stories about if you get reset to a starter ship and not having enough supplies to even hit CR)

Only problem i had was the seeming nerf to the gemini travel speed meaning we now have no carrier over 4.0 MB.

So id have to take 2 tugs and have the tugs with engine upgrads to bring them to 7 to have it at a reasonable MB.

Edit; with Unstable Injector and Augmented engines costing 8op each and the tugs only having 5 op. not even max level op boosts (30%) will get that thing moving at the desired rate.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2013, 02:20:26 AM by Psygnosis »
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TaLaR

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Re: Fighters viability
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2013, 02:30:36 AM »

I'm also experimenting with a universal speed boost for fighters, either 1.5x or 2x... This makes them epic chasers and a great rapid response force to keep next to your carrier (fighter rendezvous) and send at whichever front that needs a little boost

That might help, being too slow seems serious problem for fighters, since almost any frigate with unstable injectors is faster than most fighter types.
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Borgoid

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Re: Fighters viability
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2013, 02:45:39 AM »

Only problem i had was the seeming nerf to the gemini travel speed meaning we now have no carrier over 4.0 MB.

So id have to take 2 tugs and have the tugs with engine upgrades to bring them to 7 to have it at a reasonable MB.

Edit; with Unstable Injector and Augmented engines costing 8op each and the tugs only having 5 op. not even max level op boosts (30%) will get that thing moving at the desired rate.

Few things to address:
#1 - A Gemini can only have 2 tugs attached so its max speed would be 6 with 2 tugs and no points in Navigation.
#2 - An Astral can also travel at 6 with the use of 4 tugs, again with no points in Navigation
#3 - An Odyssey can travel at 7 with 4 tugs and ONE point in Navigation or at 6 with merely 3 tugs and no Navigation points
#4 - If you want to go faster and you're making heavy use of Fighters, invest in Navigation! You're not honestly going to be doing much else with your skill points anyway.
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