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onslaught

17 (26.2%)

paragon

11 (16.9%)

odyssey

11 (16.9%)

conquest

19 (29.2%)

atlas

2 (3.1%)

astral

3 (4.6%)

prometheus

2 (3.1%)

Total Members Voted: 65

[TaLaR]

Actually Paragon feels too good in 0.6. Combination of heavy needlers + tachyon lances seems unbeatable 1 vs 1 except by another Paragon that has maxed shield efficiency/flux cap & vent/good hard flux weapons (tachyon lances obviously don't qualify as such). Onslaught/Conquest/Odyssey will have to drop shields much earlier than Paragon and will be instantly crippled by emp, transforming further combat into one sided beating.

[MidnightSun]

@BonhommeCarnaval: Right, except that the Onslaught would likely have Maulers or HVDs mounted as well, and potentially even Gauss Cannons that outrange everything (true, you can mount that on the Conquest as well).

What works to the Onslaught's advantage is that it does not need to enable its shields at all. I usually go with 2 Flak + 3 Dual Flak, and this, along with the thick armor, means that the relatively poor front-facing shield is unimportant.

Hypothetically, the Conquest would be focusing on dancing just out of range of the TPCs and the Onslaught's 3x Large Ballistics, while trying to loop around to the Onslaught's rear. At such a large radius, however, it's nigh impossible to dance around faster than the Onslaught can turn. Moving closer isn't an option, however, as the Onslaught can tank some hits without its Large Ballistics being disabled (as they're mounted far from the edge), whereas the Conquest will either have several of its weapons disabled or take a large flux hit from its poor shield efficiency.

What really ruins the Conquest's day, however, is the flux-free constant stream of Annihilator rockets that the Onslaught can unleash. Unless you mount at least 2x (Dual) Flaks, neither the energy PD nor the shielding will be able to keep up with it. The Onslaught can, on the other hand, shrug off any missiles from the Conquest due to the Flak wall.

That said though, both ships have their uses, and I do like the Conquest as well. I would personally argue that Onslaught is a better 1-on-1 brawler, while the Conquest performs better in dominating a field versus cruisers and destroyers. It's why I'm using a Conquest in campaign ATM.

[Borgoid]

You don't shoot while the Fortress Shield is up, you dissipate your flux while the Paragon generates hard flux.

I wouldn't use HILs on a Paragon in every day usage. I'd definitely go for Autopulses, otherwise I'll die to the first enemy Paragon I run into because I can't scratch his shields.

There's absolutely NO activation time on a fortress shield activation. I can activate it after a storm needler has fired and reap the benefits.

Edit: Also you're in firing range at this point so you're either taking damage or generating a 2.5k soft flux/sec on your shields

Throw unstable injector on your paragon and ignore the *** side small energy slots that have awful arcs, just hover outside the enemy paragon's autopulse range until he overheats himself turning on his fortress shield. RIP autopulse paragon.

Actually Paragon feels too good in 0.6. Combination of heavy needlers + tachyon lances seems unbeatable 1 vs 1 except by another Paragon that has maxed shield efficiency/flux cap & vent/good hard flux weapons (tachyon lances obviously don't qualify as such). Onslaught/Conquest/Odyssey will have to drop shields much earlier than Paragon and will be instantly crippled by emp, transforming further combat into one sided beating.

Nothing changed to make the Paragon any better apart from the coasting changes. You can trivially outrange a paragon's needlers and autopulse lasers, or simply tank the needlers, wait for a tach shot, vent ect till needlers are out of ammo and then go to town.

[TaLaR]

Actually Paragon feels too good in 0.6. Combination of heavy needlers + tachyon lances seems unbeatable 1 vs 1 except by another Paragon that has maxed shield efficiency/flux cap & vent/good hard flux weapons (tachyon lances obviously don't qualify as such). Onslaught/Conquest/Odyssey will have to drop shields much earlier than Paragon and will be instantly crippled by emp, transforming further combat into one sided beating.

Nothing changed to make the Paragon any better apart from the coasting changes. You can trivially outrange a paragon's needlers and autopulse lasers, or simply tank the needlers, wait for a tach shot, vent ect till needlers are out of ammo and then go to town.

I agree that technically Paragon didn't change, tachyon lances however did. And Paragon is the only ship capable of combining kinetics with it.

First, i assume we are talking about Paragon vs not-Paragon scenario.
1)Out-ranging needlers leaves you with Hyper-Velocity drivers + Gauss Cannons as only kinetics and as single shot weapons they are easily blocked by fortress shields.
2)Tanking the needlers on shields is also impossible - both Onslaught and Conquest fail so hard on shield efficiency that they can't do it even having much higher dps than Paragon, and Odyssey can't use ballistic kinetic weapons.
3)And as soon as you drop shields your ship is almost completely disabled by tachyon lances.

Now of course, having huge combat/tech skills advantage + good player piloting might make it possible for Onslaught. But that's still huge change from 0.54 where well outfitted (no combat/tech advantage) player-piloted Conquest or even auto-piloted Onslaught could win quite easily...

[Borgoid]

I agree that technically Paragon didn't change, tachyon lances however did. And Paragon is the only ship capable of combining kinetics with it.

First, i assume we are talking about Paragon vs not-Paragon scenario.
1)Out-ranging needlers leaves you with Hyper-Velocity drivers + Gauss Cannons as only kinetics and as single shot weapons they are easily blocked by fortress shields.
2)Tanking the needlers on shields is also impossible - both Onslaught and Conquest fail so hard on shield efficiency that they can't do it even having much higher dps than Paragon, and Odyssey can't use ballistic kinetic weapons.
3)And as soon as you drop shields your ship is almost completely disabled by tachyon lances.

Now of course, having huge combat/tech skills advantage + good player piloting might make it possible for Onslaught. But that's still huge change from 0.54 where well outfitted (no combat/tech advantage) player-piloted Conquest or even auto-piloted Onslaught could win quite easily...

#1 Out-ranging heavy needlers can be done with Graviton and High Intensity lasers as well. Also Mark IX autocannons.
Oh and technically Mjonir cannons but they're awful.... Oh and TPCS trivially outrange them
#2 Tanking needlers involves not having your shields up, that's not overly complicated. Raise for the Tach, drop for the needlers, raise for the tach, drop for the needlers. If they synch up? Raise shields, vent. Not only that but both Conquest and Onslaught can take MULTIPLE volleys from two heavy needlers. It's not as though they overheat the second they're shot at
#3 You're making the assumption the Tachs are only fired while your shields are down.
#4 I just absolutely rolled a Paragon with a Conquest using Autocannons, Maulers, and the tactic I just described using the Random Battle mission ergo no skill points.
#4 Autopulse lasers have incredibly short range
#5 Thanks for using a point by point list, it's incredibly helpful

Oh also missiles are a thing so the Paragon is not the only ship capable of combining Tach lances and kinetic hard flux damage.

[TaLaR]

I agree that technically Paragon didn't change, tachyon lances however did. And Paragon is the only ship capable of combining kinetics with it.

First, i assume we are talking about Paragon vs not-Paragon scenario.
1)Out-ranging needlers leaves you with Hyper-Velocity drivers + Gauss Cannons as only kinetics and as single shot weapons they are easily blocked by fortress shields.
2)Tanking the needlers on shields is also impossible - both Onslaught and Conquest fail so hard on shield efficiency that they can't do it even having much higher dps than Paragon, and Odyssey can't use ballistic kinetic weapons.
3)And as soon as you drop shields your ship is almost completely disabled by tachyon lances.

Now of course, having huge combat/tech skills advantage + good player piloting might make it possible for Onslaught. But that's still huge change from 0.54 where well outfitted (no combat/tech advantage) player-piloted Conquest or even auto-piloted Onslaught could win quite easily...

#1 Out-ranging heavy needlers can be done with Graviton and High Intensity lasers as well. Also Mark IX autocannons.
Oh and technically Mjonir cannons but they're awful.... Oh and TPCS trivially outrange them
#2 Tanking needlers involves not having your shields up, that's not overly complicated. Raise for the Tach, drop for the needlers, raise for the tach, drop for the needlers. If they synch up? Raise shields, vent. Not only that but both Conquest and Onslaught can take MULTIPLE volleys from two heavy needlers. It's not as though they overheat the second they're shot at
#3 You're making the assumption the Tachs are only fired while your shields are down.
#4 I just absolutely rolled a Paragon with a Conquest using Autocannons, Maulers, and the tactic I just described using the Random Battle mission ergo no skill points.
#4 Autopulse lasers have incredibly short range
#5 Thanks for using a point by point list, it's incredibly helpful

Oh also missiles are a thing so the Paragon is not the only ship capable of combining Tach lances and kinetic hard flux damage.

Ok, let's continue:)

1a) Gravitons & HILs are soft flux - even another Paragon can't produce enough soft flux damage to make it matter
1b) Mark IX leave only few meters of range superiority and are also fairly easy to block by fortress shield.
1c) Mjolnirs don't out-range Needlers as far as i rememeber. And would be horrible choice even if they did...
1d) TPC might reasonably work, agreed here.

2+3+4) Well, i guess it might be possible in 1 vs 1 against AI-piloted default Paragon layout. Still, requires perfect execution, and trivial changes to Paragon design like making needlers alternating group make it even harder. Could go even further by adding Gravitons to front energy mediums & HILs to turret large slots + optics (assuming lances are in front hardpoints).

4?) Since Paragon can't force closer distance against Onslaught autopulses are out, agreed here.

5) Same here:)

6) The only kinetic missile is sabot - medium version doesn't have enough ammo to matter in capital fight, large lacks both rate of fire and ammo. + Burst pd with targeting core can intercept them quite reliably. MIRV is kind of ok despite being HE, but no ship has more than single slot for it, and ones that do lack other slots - so not really an option either...

UPDATE: ok, considering how slow both ships are 100 m range difference on Mark IX is enough, and TPCs alone are sufficient for a trivial win anyway...

[Hari Seldon]

The Onslaught and the Conquest are born to not use their shields.  Hook them up with Mjolnir cannons and heavy needlers and targeting core and maximum vents (ignore capacitors, they are worthless when not using shields) and the DPS is silly even before the enemy weapons get in range.  Also they never overload if they never use their shields.  And they vent quickly with all those vents.

The Paragon does not have enough DPS to compete.

The only way a Paragon can win against them is EMP from its Tachyon lances but the problem is that the Tachyon lance is so weak it never bulids up its soft flux at all on the enemy.  So the Onslaught and the Conquest should use shields to block the tachyons, then when in range drop shields and slam huge DPS.  And use Resistant Flux Conduits if necessary.

[Mattk50]

I solo paragons and conquests with my apogee. Cant do onslaughts because of the burn drive. Havnt had a chance to fight an oddy. Basically, the ai is shite but i think the most dangeorus cap is the paragon: in any fleet scenerio it will simply bulldoze your lines. Maybe 1v1 you can get kited, but when is a capital alone anyway.

[Borgoid]

Ok, let's continue:)

1a) Gravitons & HILs are soft flux - even another Paragon can't produce enough soft flux damage to make it matter
1b) Mark IX leave only few meters of range superiority and are also fairly easy to block by fortress shield.
1c) Mjolnirs don't out-range Needlers as far as i rememeber. And would be horrible choice even if they did...
1d) TPC might reasonably work, agreed here.

2+3+4) Well, i guess it might be possible in 1 vs 1 against AI-piloted default Paragon layout. Still, requires perfect execution, and trivial changes to Paragon design like making needlers alternating group make it even harder. Could go even further by adding Gravitons to front energy mediums & HILs to turret large slots + optics (assuming lances are in front hardpoints).

4?) Since Paragon can't force closer distance against Onslaught autopulses are out, agreed here.

5) Same here:)

6) The only kinetic missile is sabot - medium version doesn't have enough ammo to matter in capital fight, large lacks both rate of fire and ammo. + Burst pd with targeting core can intercept them quite reliably. MIRV is kind of ok despite being HE, but no ship has more than single slot for it, and ones that do lack other slots - so not really an option either...

UPDATE: ok, considering how slow both ships are 100 m range difference on Mark IX is enough, and TPCs alone are sufficient for a trivial win anyway...

1a) Actually if you scroll up a bit you'll see I did the napkin math on soft flux generation from HIL and Gravitons. A paragon with 4/4 of each inflicts 1800 soft flux per second on shields not including the damage bonus from having high flux. (It would only do about 700 vs a Paragon due to their .6 shield assuming it's calculated the way I think it is)
2b) Your update covered this but I still feel the urge to go " Muhahahaha"
3c) Mjolnirs have 900 range to the heavy needlers 800, they're still terrible though.
4d) Yeah TPCS are just a tad too strong to be frank

2/3/4/ect) Well you did specifically bring up an autopulse Paragon but I definitely agree that HILs are the right choice. With regards to the needlers, the flux capacity of all capital ships is high enough and the rate of fire on the tach lance is LOW enough that you don't really mind tanking a few needler shots to the shields. Even if you take 4 volleys you still vent faster than the ROF on the tach lance.
The Gravitons are hard to deal with no question there

?) You should see a Paragon with 4/4 HIL/Grav, intergrated targeting unit, advanced optics, unstable injector, augmented engines.... Zoom zoom!


6) Well a Conquest can mount two MIRV launchers and two Sabot pods which is pretty damn nasty when combined with the 2 large + 2 medium ballistic mounts that can be pointed at one target at any given time. Missiles in general aren't a great solution to Paragons however since... Well fortress shield is a thing.   See: Mission Forlorn Hope.

The Onslaught and the Conquest are born to not use their shields.  Hook them up with Mjolnir cannons and heavy needlers and targeting core and maximum vents (ignore capacitors, they are worthless when not using shields) and the DPS is silly even before the enemy weapons get in range.  Also they never overload if they never use their shields.  And they vent quickly with all those vents.

The Paragon does not have enough DPS to compete.

The only way a Paragon can win against them is EMP from its Tachyon lances but the problem is that the Tachyon lance is so weak it never bulids up its soft flux at all on the enemy.  So the Onslaught and the Conquest should use shields to block the tachyons, then when in range drop shields and slam huge DPS.  And use Resistant Flux Conduits if necessary.

Feel free to read back through the previous posts but in practice that's just not true. The Paragon is far better than the AI would have you believe.

Also it's literally impossible to fire two mjolnir cannons simaltaniously with any ship that can mount them without capping out your flux. Welcome to free damage and disabling your weapon mounts,
Mjolnirs are just bad I'm afraid : /

[Mattk50]

additionally to the mjolner's naturally poor flux, they dont benefit from energy overcharch and have nothing their damage type is bonused against.

[Voyager I]

Don't forget the high OP cost as well!  They're like the Heavy Blaster of the large ballistic line, if the blaster did less damage than its competitors.  The only real redeeming quality is that its high per-shot damage and the EMP makes it  good against armor when compared to other non-explosive weapons (this isn't the same as saying that it's objectively good against armor).

If we're talking about range differences, keep in mind that they're all going to be magnified by the ITUs that every capital is going to carry and that the Onslaught gets another bonus on top of that from its built-in sensor dish.  I believe the bonuses stack additively, but it's still a huge deal give how strong range is on capital ships.

Honestly, I feel like the Onslaught may have been overcompensated slightly for the days when ship systems didn't exist.  It has a lot of things going for it.  Burn Drive largely solves its problems with mobility in terms of getting into a fight, but now it also gets some amazing baked-in bonuses with the TPCs and free massive range boost that stacks with other range boosts and now armor has just been buffed in a way that makes it even harder to kill.

[Darloth]

Maybe...

But I remember when onslaughts were a slow, easily killed joke - you could just avoid them even in a fleet fight, and when you had to kill them, even I could kill them in a tempest or something.  (Okay, so Gothars can still kill them in a Buffalo Mk2, but that's not my point here!)

If you read the descriptions of them, they're meant to be gigantic, terrible and fearsome ships of the line that carved out an empire even BEFORE they were upgraded with recent technologies.  I much prefer them being perhaps a little too good than a sad, irrelevant shadow of their own lore confined to float out of range of the battle for most of the fight, for sure!

[SpaceRiceBowl]

Onslaught, because of all dat armor and ballistics.