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Author Topic: Combat Readiness : how is the bonus applied?  (Read 18403 times)

Histidine

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Re: Combat Readiness : how is the bonus applied?
« Reply #30 on: September 16, 2014, 09:28:01 PM »

1) Removed "emergency repairs" and LR providing a supply repair bonus. Ships have a base (hull size based) repair rate instead. This rate is hidden; the UI shows how many days are left instead of what % is being gained per day.
2) If a ship is either recovering CR or performing repairs, it'll consume its full logistics rating worth of supplies. So, repairs still cost supplies in this way, but a lot less and more gradually. Removed "supplies to fully repair" stat from ships.
Hmm, does this mean repairs are basically free beyond the time you spend incurring the logistics rating cost? Considering how expensive repairs are in the current version, this is a pretty major change unless ships repair really slowly and/or the logistics cost is bumped up a lot (and the latter also affects how much ships cost to field in the first place).

Quote
3) If a ship is NOT recovering CR or performing repairs, the supply cost is 0. (Never liked the 10% rule much, anyway.) Doubled crew supply use instead.
This makes high-tech ships way cheaper to idle than low-tech ones (on account of having much smaller crews).
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Midnight Kitsune

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Re: Combat Readiness : how is the bonus applied?
« Reply #31 on: September 16, 2014, 09:51:17 PM »

To me, these changes don't make sense. One change buffs multiple ships in a fleet (The independent repair) while another nerfs them and cap ships are REALLY getting hurt by this change when they were already hurting as it was!  Also Alex, you are forgetting two things about caps: They are "scary" (makes AI fleets run away) and they are slow both on and off the battlefield. The frigate's speed allows it to "feed" itself a lot better than the cap ship.
Also you never addressed my fifth question Alex
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Alex

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Re: Combat Readiness : how is the bonus applied?
« Reply #32 on: September 16, 2014, 10:09:33 PM »

1) Removed "emergency repairs" and LR providing a supply repair bonus. Ships have a base (hull size based) repair rate instead. This rate is hidden; the UI shows how many days are left instead of what % is being gained per day.
2) If a ship is either recovering CR or performing repairs, it'll consume its full logistics rating worth of supplies. So, repairs still cost supplies in this way, but a lot less and more gradually. Removed "supplies to fully repair" stat from ships.
Hmm, does this mean repairs are basically free beyond the time you spend incurring the logistics rating cost? Considering how expensive repairs are in the current version, this is a pretty major change unless ships repair really slowly and/or the logistics cost is bumped up a lot (and the latter also affects how much ships cost to field in the first place).

Yeah, repairs are much cheaper overall. This is part of balancing post-combat salvage around the deployment cost of ships, rather than trying to factor in repairs, which are dependent on playstyle and player skill. Not to say that skill isn't rewarded - it is, since repairs still cost something, if they're beyond what you get "for free" during CR recovery - but before, the gap between "no damage" and "some damage" was too vast.

Quote
3) If a ship is NOT recovering CR or performing repairs, the supply cost is 0. (Never liked the 10% rule much, anyway.) Doubled crew supply use instead.
This makes high-tech ships way cheaper to idle than low-tech ones (on account of having much smaller crews).

I don't know if I'd go with "way", but yeah, some.


To me, these changes don't make sense. One change buffs multiple ships in a fleet (The independent repair) while another nerfs them and cap ships are REALLY getting hurt by this change when they were already hurting as it was!  Also Alex, you are forgetting two things about caps: They are "scary" (makes AI fleets run away) and they are slow both on and off the battlefield. The frigate's speed allows it to "feed" itself a lot better than the cap ship.
Also you never addressed my fifth question Alex

Like I said, the specific numbers bear keeping an eye on, but they aren't the heart of these changes, so I wouldn't focus on that too much. The main points are cheaper repairs, simpler repair mechanics, and more player control over supply use.


(Even so, if you're lugging around a cap ship without using it, what's the point? If you *are* using it, the deployment cost is what really matters; the change in supplies/day is comparatively small.

Capital ships aren't any more "scary" than an equivalent number of of frigates, in terms of deployment points, btw. Being slow in the campaign map is a separate issue, and I'd rather not bring it in. I mean, yeah, it's technically related if we're talking about overall balance for capitals, but that's not likely to be a productive discussion until attacking and defending stationary targets is a thing, as that seems likely to end up being the cap ship niche.

So, it's a bit of a weird thing, where yeah, it needs to be considered in the short term, but it also isn't something that's worth spending too much time trying to nail just yet. As long as they're viable (for a low threshold of "viable"), I think that's enough for now.)
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Sundog

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Re: Combat Readiness : how is the bonus applied?
« Reply #33 on: September 16, 2014, 10:31:37 PM »

Hmm. "Repairs" is crucially shorter than "maintenance" for one UI element. Also: I'm not entirely sure that "maintenance" as applied to crew is any better than "repairs", as both bring to mind androids :)
Oh, for sure! I didn't mean to suggest that maintenance would encompass crew healing (I don't think there's any word that would cover all aspects of CR recovery). I only suggested it because I think it encompasses more of what CR recovery involves than "repairs."  It is important to be concise though, so "repairs" certainly has that going for it.  :)

Gothars

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Re: Combat Readiness : how is the bonus applied?
« Reply #34 on: September 17, 2014, 03:20:07 AM »

Thoughts/feedback? Any glaring holes I'm not seeing? :)

If I got this right, deploying a damaged ship would be free, as long as the damages takes as long (or longer) to repair as the CR takes to regenerate. Or at least cost reduced, as long as there's an overlap.That would mean it's economically most prudent to send damaged ships into combat instead of full repaired ones, which makes little sense, lore wise.


There are ways to fix that, but not without making it more coplicated, again. For example, if CR regeneration would be suspended until the repair status is level with the CR status.



Other than that, I really like the change.


This makes high-tech ships way cheaper to idle than low-tech ones (on account of having much smaller crews).

I'd like that effect. There were always the questions: Why were high-tech ships adopted by the Domain if low-techs are about as good in the combat/price-tag ratio? And what's the advantage of high tech ships being so highly automated that they need little crew, when they still end up costing as much or more supplies to maintain?

Assuming that the expansion epoch was more peaceful than previous times, and thus ships were spending more time idle, adopting low maintenance/high deploy cost blueprints makes a lot of sense.





« Last Edit: September 17, 2014, 05:18:48 AM by Gothars »
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DeathRay

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Re: Combat Readiness : how is the bonus applied?
« Reply #35 on: September 17, 2014, 03:34:02 AM »

Quote
3) If a ship is NOT recovering CR or performing repairs, the supply cost is 0. (Never liked the 10% rule much, anyway.) Doubled crew supply use instead.

I think, this could lead to a balancing issue for some mods.
Especially mods with drone Ships. These Ships have 0-1 crew, so they are extremely cheap to keep idle in your Fleet, which would have an even greater effect on dronehaulers, resulting in Cargo and Fuel space for only the LR of these ships.
While it seems like the nearly free upkeep cost of battledrones could be balanced via a hull mod, which makes the repairs longer due to complex circuit repairs, I don't see a way to apply this to dronehaulers. Or is it possible to add ongoing supply consumption to ships via hull mods?
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Cycerin

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Re: Combat Readiness : how is the bonus applied?
« Reply #36 on: September 17, 2014, 03:45:13 AM »

Making supplies/day only dependent on crew will throw a wrench into ship balance for sure, and also make crew size a means of balancing supply usage, instead of being able to arbitrarily create a logistically demanding ship with a small crew.

I like the idea of high-tech ships being cheaper to idle but more expensive to deploy, though.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2014, 03:47:03 AM by Cycerin »
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Histidine

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Re: Combat Readiness : how is the bonus applied?
« Reply #37 on: September 17, 2014, 06:01:13 AM »

And what's the advantage of high tech ships being so highly automated that they need little crew, when they still end up costing as much or more supplies to maintain?
I imagine there are other possible factors, like the population of people willing and able to crew a starship being a limiting factor to fleet size, or using the space freed up by reduced life support requirements for more weapons or other combat elements.

This particular change isn't a big deal or anything to me, but it still strikes me as odd.

Hmm, it also occurs to me that this biases trade fleets (or anyone else who'd prefer to avoid combat) towards high-tech ships, and fleets that see a lot of action towards low-tech ones. This may or may not be desirable.
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Gothars

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Re: Combat Readiness : how is the bonus applied?
« Reply #38 on: September 17, 2014, 06:37:47 AM »

If I got this right, deploying a damaged ship would be free, as long as the damages takes as long (or longer) to repair as the CR takes to regenerate. Or at least cost reduced, as long as there's an overlap.That would mean it's economically most prudent to send damaged ships into combat instead of full repaired ones, which makes little sense, lore wise.

There are ways to fix that, but not without making it more coplicated, again. For example, if CR regeneration would be suspended until the repair status is level with the CR status.

To expand on that:

The upper graph shows repair and CR (max is 60%) of a ship after heavy combat as it would be with the new mechanic, as you can see some free deployments are possible. Free here means you don't need to spend supplies after deployment you didn't have to spend anyway for repairs.
 Below is my suggestion, which would mitigate the problem somewhat with minimal increase in complexity (and IMO some gain of realism).




and also make crew size a means of balancing supply usage, instead of being able to arbitrarily create a logistically demanding ship with a small crew.

I like the idea of high-tech ships being cheaper to idle but more expensive to deploy, though.

The only current real balancing function of crew size is how hard it is to staff a ship fully with elites and and get it to high max CR. Other than that, crew size was mostly flavor. So, I think it's nice that it gains a real function.

And there are still "CR per deployment" and hullmods to make a low-crew ship logistically demanding.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2014, 07:16:39 AM by Gothars »
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Wyvern

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Re: Combat Readiness : how is the bonus applied?
« Reply #39 on: September 17, 2014, 08:01:23 AM »

Interesting... and yeah, I can see something like the Hyperion getting a "Hangar Queen" built-in hull mod that just makes it cost some supplies even at idle...
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Midnight Kitsune

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Re: Combat Readiness : how is the bonus applied?
« Reply #40 on: September 17, 2014, 08:47:20 AM »

Interesting... and yeah, I can see something like the Hyperion getting a "Hangar Queen" built-in hull mod that just makes it cost some supplies even at idle...
Let's NOT give him any more ideas on how to nerf that poor thing
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Alex

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Re: Combat Readiness : how is the bonus applied?
« Reply #41 on: September 17, 2014, 09:01:29 AM »

Oh, for sure! I didn't mean to suggest that maintenance would encompass crew healing (I don't think there's any word that would cover all aspects of CR recovery). I only suggested it because I think it encompasses more of what CR recovery involves than "repairs."  It is important to be concise though, so "repairs" certainly has that going for it.  :)

Ah, now I get what you mean :)


Thoughts/feedback? Any glaring holes I'm not seeing? :)

If I got this right, deploying a damaged ship would be free, as long as the damages takes as long (or longer) to repair as the CR takes to regenerate. Or at least cost reduced, as long as there's an overlap.That would mean it's economically most prudent to send damaged ships into combat instead of full repaired ones, which makes little sense, lore wise.


There are ways to fix that, but not without making it more complicated, again. For example, if CR regeneration would be suspended until the repair status is level with the CR status.
Spoiler
If I got this right, deploying a damaged ship would be free, as long as the damages takes as long (or longer) to repair as the CR takes to regenerate. Or at least cost reduced, as long as there's an overlap.That would mean it's economically most prudent to send damaged ships into combat instead of full repaired ones, which makes little sense, lore wise.

There are ways to fix that, but not without making it more complicated, again. For example, if CR regeneration would be suspended until the repair status is level with the CR status.

To expand on that:

The upper graph shows repair and CR (max is 60%) of a ship after heavy combat as it would be with the new mechanic, as you can see some free deployments are possible. Free here means you don't need to spend supplies after deployment you didn't have to spend anyway for repairs.
 Below is my suggestion, which would mitigate the problem somewhat with minimal increase in complexity (and IMO some gain of realism).

[close]

That's a really good point. Hmm.

(After a bunch of thinking/trying things) How about this: taking hull damage already reduces CR, by up to a maximum of 25% at a theoretical 100% hull damage taken. I just bumped it up to 50% max - seems like this should make sure that a situation where the hull is low but CR is high is very unlikely, as in most cases, hull repair rates are on par with CR recovery, or slightly faster. This has the benefit of not adding any new rules into the mix, and the occasional case where you might get a "free" deployment out of a damaged ship seems tolerable. I mean, it's not something you'd want to try to exploit to play optimally, and gameplay-wise it rewards higher risk taking (e.g. deploying a damaged ship). The only downside seems like it's a bit of a stretch in-fiction-wise, but, eh.


Quote
3) If a ship is NOT recovering CR or performing repairs, the supply cost is 0. (Never liked the 10% rule much, anyway.) Doubled crew supply use instead.

I think, this could lead to a balancing issue for some mods.
Especially mods with drone Ships. These Ships have 0-1 crew, so they are extremely cheap to keep idle in your Fleet, which would have an even greater effect on dronehaulers, resulting in Cargo and Fuel space for only the LR of these ships.
While it seems like the nearly free upkeep cost of battledrones could be balanced via a hull mod, which makes the repairs longer due to complex circuit repairs, I don't see a way to apply this to dronehaulers. Or is it possible to add ongoing supply consumption to ships via hull mods?
Making supplies/day only dependent on crew will throw a wrench into ship balance for sure, and also make crew size a means of balancing supply usage, instead of being able to arbitrarily create a logistically demanding ship with a small crew.

I like the idea of high-tech ships being cheaper to idle but more expensive to deploy, though.

Thanks for bringing this up. Added a getSupplyConsumptionAtMaxCRMult() stat to ships, which governs how much of its logistics cost gets deducted in supplies/day while at max CR. The nice thing here is that even though it's a "new rule" in a sense, it's introduced via hullmods, so it's no more a new rule than "a ship with Heavy Armor has more armor", say - there's a clear way for the player to know this, from seeing the hullmod.



Interesting... and yeah, I can see something like the Hyperion getting a "Hangar Queen" built-in hull mod that just makes it cost some supplies even at idle...

I have a strong visceral dislike of that term for some reason, but like the idea - added a "High Maintenance" built-in to the Hyperion :)


Interesting... and yeah, I can see something like the Hyperion getting a "Hangar Queen" built-in hull mod that just makes it cost some supplies even at idle...
Let's NOT give him any more ideas on how to nerf that poor thing

Too late! Needed a reference hullmod for that mechanic, anyway, so some ship was going to draw the short straw.
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Gothars

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Re: Combat Readiness : how is the bonus applied?
« Reply #42 on: September 17, 2014, 10:47:20 AM »

(After a bunch of thinking/trying things) How about this: taking hull damage already reduces CR, by up to a maximum of 25% at a theoretical 100% hull damage taken. I just bumped it up to 50% max - seems like this should make sure that a situation where the hull is low but CR is high is very unlikely, as in most cases, hull repair rates are on par with CR recovery, or slightly faster. This has the benefit of not adding any new rules into the mix, and the occasional case where you might get a "free" deployment out of a damaged ship seems tolerable. I mean, it's not something you'd want to try to exploit to play optimally, and gameplay-wise it rewards higher risk taking (e.g. deploying a damaged ship). The only downside seems like it's a bit of a stretch in-fiction-wise, but, eh.

I think that's a good solution, should work. :)


Oh, by the way, have you decided yet what surplus LR will be used for, now that it doesn't affect repairs?


Quote
as in most cases, hull repair rates are on par with CR recovery, or slightly faster.

So while repair rate is size specific, CR recovery rate is  still an independent, hull-specific stat? Mh, I wonder if that distinction is even necessary...



This exploits thing reminds me: Please don't forget the "XP for lost ships" exploit. It's by far the fastest way to level up to make cheap junk fleets and purposefully let an enemy destroy them.
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Alex

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Re: Combat Readiness : how is the bonus applied?
« Reply #43 on: September 17, 2014, 11:15:08 AM »

Oh, by the way, have you decided yet what surplus LR will be used for, now that it doesn't affect repairs?

It still does - up to +50% repair rate for everything. Also up to +10% max CR. Might end up tweaking this in the future, though.

Quote
as in most cases, hull repair rates are on par with CR recovery, or slightly faster.

So while repair rate is size specific, CR recovery rate is  still an independent, hull-specific stat? Mh, I wonder if that distinction is even necessary...

Yeah, I don't know. Right now, it feels like manipulating the CR recovery rate independently of the repair rate is useful. For example, a ship like the Hound - it takes 10% to deploy, and takes 2 days to recover, at 5% CR per day. The low deployment cost is part of a "rugged" or "reliable" feel to it; but if this also forced it to be 2x slower to repair?

Plus, it's nice not to have to explain somewhere that "CR recovery rate" is actually "CR recovery and repair rate".

This exploits thing reminds me: Please don't forget the "XP for lost ships" exploit. It's by far the fastest way to level up to make cheap junk fleets and purposefully let an enemy destroy them.

You know what? Just going to remove that mechanic. Executive decision made.
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Gothars

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Re: Combat Readiness : how is the bonus applied?
« Reply #44 on: September 17, 2014, 12:05:28 PM »

It still does - up to +50% repair rate for everything. Also up to +10% max CR. Might end up tweaking this in the future, though.
Interesting, I'm looking forward to trying that out :)


Quote
as in most cases, hull repair rates are on par with CR recovery, or slightly faster.

So while repair rate is size specific, CR recovery rate is  still an independent, hull-specific stat? Mh, I wonder if that distinction is even necessary...

Yeah, I don't know. Right now, it feels like manipulating the CR recovery rate independently of the repair rate is useful. For example, a ship like the Hound - it takes 10% to deploy, and takes 2 days to recover, at 5% CR per day. The low deployment cost is part of a "rugged" or "reliable" feel to it; but if this also forced it to be 2x slower to repair?

Plus, it's nice not to have to explain somewhere that "CR recovery rate" is actually "CR recovery and repair rate".


Mh. You could also try it the other way around, if you make CR recovery rate size specific, too.

Let's see. The size specific CR regeneration rate range is:

Capitals:  2-3%, with 4 of 7 at 2%.
Cruisers: 3-5%, with 5 of 8 at 3%.
Destroyers: 4-5%, with 12 of 13 at 5%.
Frigates: 5, 8 or 10%, with 9 of 16 at 8%. (The ships below 8% are shuttles and the tug.)

(Data thanks to Histidine and his supply spreadsheet!)

So, I think at the moment size and CR recovery rate are so closely correlated that simply combining them doesn't seem too extreme to me. You could adjust the "CR to deploy" a bit to compensate.


(The Hound has 10% CR recovery rate, by the way, not 5%.)

This exploits thing reminds me: Please don't forget the "XP for lost ships" exploit. It's by far the fastest way to level up to make cheap junk fleets and purposefully let an enemy destroy them.

You know what? Just going to remove that mechanic. Executive decision made.

 ;)
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