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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: What happened to coasting?  (Read 13070 times)

PCCL

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Re: What happened to coasting?
« Reply #30 on: September 15, 2013, 01:57:43 PM »

The conquest is meant to use maneuvering jets as a flanking speed, then hunker down and murder stuff from an advantageous position. She's still a damn sight faster than any battleships and has a lot more heavy mounts, a battlecruiser coasting at 100 speed was OP anyway, again, glad it got nerfed

If you think char skills are too OP (I do, AI doesn't get it yet after all) you can always just not use those skill points.

I spend skill points on leadership so I can maintain bigger fleets, that's about it
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Zapier

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Re: What happened to coasting?
« Reply #31 on: September 15, 2013, 01:58:20 PM »

Not everything that changes and makes things less viable should always be considered a nerf. Often it can be called balancing. The coasting change is intended, and now to further balance some other parts of the game may need to be changed.

Kazi, I'm really trying to understand your point but the only thing I can really ever understand is that you no longer have this massive speed boost nearly indefinitely and you're crying that it's now a nerf. Can you concede that it's possible that it was unintended, therefore the change is not a nerf but a balancing pass. That's what we're here for. Not to necessary say that nothing can be toned down, but to make sure everything gets the treatment they deserve. I have one simple question, why does the Conquest deserve getting all its speed back? I just don't understand the problem since everything else lost the same bonus of coasting and the maneuvering jets are still useful... just be more selective on when they're being used.
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BonhommeCarnaval

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Re: What happened to coasting?
« Reply #32 on: September 15, 2013, 02:07:55 PM »

You can mostly negate the coasting nerf by putting 10 points in the speed skill so you get zero flux speed boost up to 25% flux. If that's not enough and you want the game to be even easier and the player to have an ever greater advantage over everyone else, turn the damage down to half in the options. If that's not enough, I'm afraid making the game easy enough for you would ruin it for everyone else (this is not directed at anyone in particular).

I'm glad coasting was removed. It's a fair change and not a nerf to any one ship, only a nerf to the player which in this case is justified.
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kazi

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Re: What happened to coasting?
« Reply #33 on: September 15, 2013, 02:18:29 PM »


Mine goes over 150 before maneuvering jets, over 200 with the jets. That's perhaps 10% slower than pre-patch although I can't remember exactly.

You may want to check your math. 150/200 = 0.75. That's a speed difference of 25 percent. Using your numbers and with elite crew no longer giving a 10% speed buff, the Conquest travels 35% more slowly than it did pre-patch (although honestly I like the change to elite crew).

@zapier- The maneuvering jets gave the Conquest (and the other midline ships) a speed boost of +100 at zero flux, not +50 like the other ships. Therefore, the midline ships lost twice as much speed as all of the other ships. Also, does no one care about the Falcon? It has very similar weaponry to the Hammerhead, except that it had the speed buff before. Now that the speed buff is gone, a Hammerhead is a much better choice. The maneuverability from the jets doesn't really help a ship that is already maneuverable (Falcon).
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BonhommeCarnaval

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Re: What happened to coasting?
« Reply #34 on: September 15, 2013, 02:22:50 PM »

Again, if the Conquest was going 35% faster than 150/200 then I'm glad it was justifiably nerfed. It still excels at its intended role and we both agreed on the game not being too difficult, so removing a player-only advantage was a good change in my opinion.
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Voyager I

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Re: What happened to coasting?
« Reply #35 on: September 15, 2013, 02:30:01 PM »

Considering that the Falcon is only slightly slower than the Hammerhead to begin with in exchange for being a tougher combatant at a marginal increase in fleet cost, I'm not really worried about the nerf.
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kazi

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Re: What happened to coasting?
« Reply #36 on: September 15, 2013, 02:35:26 PM »

Again, if the Conquest was going 35% faster than 150/200 then I'm glad it was justifiably nerfed. It still excels at its intended role and we both agreed on the game not being too difficult, so removing a player-only advantage was a good change in my opinion.

Lol that was using your numbers. No, the 35% was not on top of 150/200. Using your numbers, it used to travel at 200 and now travels at 150. That's a 25% decrease in speed (not counting the crew bonuses). Honestly, I'm not even sure it even reached those speeds to begin with.
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Zapier

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Re: What happened to coasting?
« Reply #37 on: September 15, 2013, 02:38:07 PM »

@zapier- The maneuvering jets gave the Conquest (and the other midline ships) a speed boost of +100 at zero flux, not +50 like the other ships. Therefore, the midline ships lost twice as much speed as all of the other ships. Also, does no one care about the Falcon? It has very similar weaponry to the Hammerhead, except that it had the speed buff before. Now that the speed buff is gone, a Hammerhead is a much better choice. The maneuverability from the jets doesn't really help a ship that is already maneuverable (Falcon).

Yeah, that speed boost was only because of the pairing of the maneuvering jets as you already stated, so don't try to distort the facts. The facts are the zero flux speed boost was the same for all ships. The midline ships benefited from the 'gamey' aspect of 'coasting' (I'm already getting a little annoyed at even using coasting since coasting is still technically in game, just not coasting with the speed boost indefinitely) by using maneuvering jets at zero flux to get the speed boost and then coast, making it last indefinitely as you stated. So, your issue is not with coasting being removed, but because it now brings the maneuvering jets down into the realm of being a temporary boost of speed and maneuvering rather than an indefinite burn drive for midlines.

I thank you for clarifying, but I wish you'd make sure that you're clearing stating that you're defining your loss of speed from coasting as being the removal of maneuvering jets acting like a full on speed boost that could be used in a manner to last forever in many cases rather than the boost to maneuvering which tends to apply for combat for a moment.
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BonhommeCarnaval

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Re: What happened to coasting?
« Reply #38 on: September 15, 2013, 02:38:52 PM »

Lol that was using your numbers. No, the 35% was not on top of 150/200. Using your numbers, it used to travel at 200 and now travels at 150. That's a 25% decrease in speed (not counting the crew bonuses). Honestly, I'm not even sure it even reached those speeds to begin with.

Oh then we had a misunderstanding. I was saying that after the patch, my Conquest goes 150 without using the jets, and 200 when the jets are active. This is extremely good in my opinion and thus the current Conquest is amazing at its role and amazing overall. My 10% was me saying that before the patch, I think my Conquest was going about 10% faster (probably because of the elite crew bonus changes and the CR changes).
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Mattk50

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Re: What happened to coasting?
« Reply #39 on: September 15, 2013, 06:22:35 PM »

Starsector never had anything to do with physics. I'm thankful for that because I'm not sure a combat game based on the Kerbal Space Program engine would make for particularly epic fights (might still be entertaining though).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwiUbsq2q58

Not epic enough for ya?  ;)
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BonhommeCarnaval

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Re: What happened to coasting?
« Reply #40 on: September 15, 2013, 06:31:15 PM »

Hahaha that's amazing, although having played KSP myself I can tell you that the pace of the video doesn't do justice to the huge amount of work you'd need to put into preparing those scenes. :P

Let's leave realistic physics where they belong however (not in Starsector clearly). back on topic : hooray for the removal of coasting. I didn't mind the mechanic itself, but having such a huge advantage over the AI is bad in my opinion.
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TaLaR

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Re: What happened to coasting?
« Reply #41 on: September 15, 2013, 08:16:34 PM »

Anyway, point is - without coasting Conquest can't outrun an Onslaught with similar access to piloting/tech skills and has no chances whatsoever once it's caught. I kind of agree that it's more about Burn drive being OP than anything else though...
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PCCL

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Re: What happened to coasting?
« Reply #42 on: September 15, 2013, 08:27:55 PM »

yeah, but then that's why you maneuver jet behind her and stay there, right?

the conquest isn't gonna be able to match an onslaught in a duel, that's just the way it has to be.
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Histidine

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Re: What happened to coasting?
« Reply #43 on: September 15, 2013, 08:31:25 PM »

*facepalm*

I think we can all agree on two things:
By "we" you mean "myself and pretty much no-one else in this thread?"

Quote
Maneuvering jets are awful now/redundant (the +75% maneuverability from the combat skill and auxiliary thrusters hullmod both do the same thing but better)
Combat skill requires an irrevocable investment of skill points that could go into something else, although it is a good deal.
Auxillary Thrusters costs valuable OP that could go into capacitors, vents or better weapons.
Neither of these give a speed increase, while Maneuvering Jets still does.

Not to mention that saying they "do the same thing but better" is completely silly, since the bonuses stack.

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The Conquest was OP before, but is now hands-down the worst capital ship in the game (virtually anything else is a better use of money/command points)
[citation needed]
IME the Conquest is still plenty effective. Sure, it can't beat an Onslaught one-on-one (even a Paragon can't take that fight lightly), but that's by no means the only tactical situation a Conquest might find itself in. A properly equipped Conquest beats up any two or three ships smaller than itself no sweat, and in fleet actions an opposing capital ship better not make the mistake of being even briefly distracted by a different opponent while the Conquest is nearby. (Try The Last Hurrah, it's pretty fun even with your foo' allies constantly getting themselves killed.)

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but in light of their relatively light weapons loadouts and staying power, the only advantage to using those ships was the ability to outmaneuver your opponents. You can't do that now. There's really no reason to use midlines now since the high/low tech ships do everything the midlines do, but better.
OP for OP, midlines:
  • have better shielding than low-techs and better armor than high-techs; their overall defense isn't much different from those two
  • have a much easier time maneuvering than low-techs (Burn Drive is great, but it's also only useful when the direction you want to go is straight ahead; Maneuvering Jets is far more flexible)
  • are just as cheap supply-wise to deploy as low-techs, way less than high-techs
  • have firepower almost as good as high-techs
  • can mount fewer weapons than low-techs, but actually have the flux capacity and dissipation to support all the ones they do mount, and have an easier time bringing it to bear too
tl;dr: Midlines are fine. You could probably make a case for midlines not being as good as high-techs and low-techs, but it's not like the difference is all that noticeable.
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