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Starsector 0.9.1a is out! (05/10/19); Blog post: Painting the Stars (02/07/20)

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Author Topic: [0.9.1a] Hiigaran Descendants v2.0.4/v5  (Read 310734 times)

miles341

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Re: [0.9.1a] Hiigaran Descendants v2.0.4
« Reply #795 on: October 17, 2019, 06:23:27 PM »


Hmm, I'd like to try out your version, but I don't want to restart my current save. Do you know if your version will break saves if I directly replace the original one with it?

If you replace the version you're using with mine you should be able to continue your save just fine. I'm pretty sure I didn't remove/rename anything so it shouldn't get any errors. You'll probably have some weapons in weird slots on ships though.

Alright, thank you! I don't have any Hiigaran ships currently in my fleet, so no worries about the weapons/slots.
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Khornaar

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Re: [0.9.1a] Hiigaran Descendants v2.0.4
« Reply #796 on: October 18, 2019, 02:39:29 AM »

I like a lot the work you've done with this mod, NoFood. I especially like how you've changed the weapon mounts on the ships themselves.

The ships are substantially more powerful than vanilla, however. Like flatten entire flotillas with a few ships powerful.

Which is fine if that's what you were going for, but if you wanted to get closer to vanilla balance, i'd increase the deployment costs across the board for basically everything.

My experience is you can do that with just about any good ships, the game is pretty easy when you know how to outfit/use ships. I was going for the typical mod fashion: slightly better than vanilla ships, but not outright overpowered. They're supposed to be tough, but with very poor flux stats and have difficulty doing high sustained DPS; this is innately strong against AI that often don't know when to push the advantage or deal with highly specialized fleets, however, so it's gonna be tough to get right if its even possible. Their stats closely match low-tech ships of the same tier but with worse flux stats, more varied but similar number of mounts, and better engines. Anything specific you think makes them overpowered?

I'm not the person that wrote first, but if you're open to feedback?
1. Absolutely love ship firing arcs/slots rework. Especially great job on Ion beam cruisers.
2. Mixed energy/ballistic faction like Hiigarans looks more like Midline, rather than Low-tech, at lest for me. So i strongly disagree with flux/armor stats on destroyer/cruiser sized ships. Strangely, capsize is more similar to Midline stats, or so it seems to me.
3. Carriers are super meh (in current meta, where wing slots are everything), but honestly, that's ok.
4. Battlecruisers all have 7 Burn, and destroyers have 8, which is strange, since Vanilla counterparts have 8 and 9 respectively. Mmaybe it's a holdover from earlier builds of the Starsector and was norm, but alas.
5. Sajuuk-Khar feels mediocre for a 105/145 cost super ship. Hiigarans really cut costs on outfitting their flagship. Flux stats on it are from a ship one size too small. It need either a lower cost or better flux stats (maybe at the cost of armor/hull stats). Also maybe Advanced targeting core instead of Integrated.
6. Hiigaran Medium and Large ballistic guns are straight up garbage, compared to Vanilla guns. Example: Why use Dual chaingun (HE), when assault chaingun has same range, more dps/damage-per-shot, better flux and takes less OP? With those pitiful ranges, they either have to have godlike DPS or Flux stats, ATM they have neither. Also, large guns and their weird 23 OP cost.
7. Missiles cost too much for infinite type. Using Pilum as point of reference, they should have better dps and/or cost less OP. Yes, they are faster than Pilums (honestly, my grandma is faster than Pilums), and that's a consideration too, but nonetheless.

Some bugs i noticed:
1) Sajuuk-Khar has 6 Large hybrid and 1 Large Universal slots, but forward facing Universal and Hybrid have the same coordinates, so its impossible to fit Hybrid slot. Balance-wise deleting this slot (or not) really depends on the resolution of Flux/Cost problem of this ship.
2) PD drones "Pulsar" (ships system) spawns drones that, despite having a weapon, do nothing. (Adding "No_flux" mod solved this problem, but they still won't target missiles, probably because Pulsar isn't a PD weapon anymore).
3) Maybe it's just me (but i even started a new game to test this): Hiigaran ships have some fundamental problem with ship variants. Ships in the bounties and in the defense fleets have absolutely no guns. Ships built by player have the same problem.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2019, 06:10:07 AM by Khornaar »
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NoFoodAfterMidnight

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Re: [0.9.1a] Hiigaran Descendants v2.0.4
« Reply #797 on: October 18, 2019, 09:54:35 AM »

Thanks for the feedback  :D

When you say you strongly disagree with the destroyer/cruiser stats, are they too poor or too strong? Which stats?

I've buffed the carriers a bit in the internal build and I'm reworking the drones and drone skills

I'll fix the burn levels, you're right

I'll do a balance pass over the chainguns, they definitely weren't my primary focus when designing the weapons and they are total trash.

If you're talking about the Abas missiles, I've considered nerfing them because of their versatility and all-round power. The difference between fast moving energy damage missiles and very slow moving HE missiles is pretty huge, pilums can't burst down a shield and start doing real damage, Abas' can. Abas' can also exploit downed shields where pilums can't.

There's not supposed to be a 6th hybrid slot there on the Sajuuk-Khar, I'll fix that. I've buffed the Sajuuk-Khar a bit in the internal build. I'm hesitant to make it too strong even as a super-ship, because larger ships in SS are just inherently stronger due to the combat mechanics around shields. I might give it an ATC instead of ITU.

I've noticed some Hiigaran fleets not having weapons, but half the time the fleets are fine. I've been looking into it and it's probably a variant issue with some of the ships, I didn't update their variants after some ship changes.

Overall the ships are supposed to have very poor flux stats, in return for being the toughest ships in the sector to kill. They definitely prefer their own weapons which is why the arsenal was expanded to have a full roster. They're a pretty specialized faction, combining low dps with high toughness and speed, and won't fare well if you try to force them to do anything else.
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Stuffwriter

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Re: [0.9.1a] Hiigaran Descendants v2.0.4
« Reply #798 on: October 18, 2019, 10:56:25 AM »

I think specifically what makes the Hiigs overpowered in your version of the mod is their ridiculous shields and one of their missile types. I know you're going for a tanky faction that's low dps, but the amount of damage they can soak up is nearly ridiculous. The battlecruiser with the drone system can get to .33 shield efficiency with the shield skill and hardened shields hullmod. That's not far from a fortress shield at that point. Hiig poor flux stats aren't nearly as detrimental when their shields are brick walls.

The auto-replenishing missiles are just a tad too strong at the moment. The cor missiles are fast, maneuverable, hit almost as hard as harpoons (harpoons are 750, the cor is 600), replenish quickly, and have a huge ammo stock. I think one of these has to go. Personally, I think the missiles should hit for a lot less if they're going to be so spammable. If you're going for a faction that is low dps, their auto-forging missiles don't really hit that mark. Enemy frigates, destroyers, and even cruisers just get melted by swarms of endless missiles.


Overall, if you weaken their shields slightly and weaken their missiles slightly, I think the hiigs would be right between vanilla high-tech and midline.

I want to emphasize that you're very close here, and you've done fantastic work.

What I like:
- Hiig energy weapons. They are fun to use, impactful, and not overpowered. When mixed in with their efficient projectile weapons, they're great
- Long-range kinetic/explosive guns. Balanced and easy to customize ships with
- Weapon mount balance. Good coverage and easily customizeable for different roles. I think you did a great job here!
- Weak carriers (gives the faction a unique focus in a meta where hangars are super important)
- diverse roles for capitals and cruisers

« Last Edit: October 18, 2019, 01:47:57 PM by Stuffwriter »
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Khornaar

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Re: [0.9.1a] Hiigaran Descendants v2.0.4
« Reply #799 on: October 18, 2019, 01:52:15 PM »

Thanks for the feedback  :D
When you say you strongly disagree with the destroyer/cruiser stats, are they too poor or too strong? Which stats?
After more testing, cruisers flux stats seem ok . I guess it was just false impression after destroyer testing. On that note, Destroyers in general have so little max flux, even with their high shield efficiency it's easy to overload them. And then they're toast.
It's just seem a bit strange logic for me: "lets make tanky shield faction, but give them tiny flux". Kinda counter-intuitive. And while it's kinda works for cruiser size and up, destroyers got the short stick.


VALID POINTS

I agree on the Large Cor (explosive) missile being overpowered. (Just never got that BP so had to do with mediums, which aren't that op). Medium kinetic missiles still suck. :)

Kinda agree on BCs.
Kashiir is somewhat outlier in shield EHP department at ~43.6k (24/0.55) with max caps (no mods/skills) and could use a trimming of shield efficiency (it's also the only ship with 0.55 efficiency btw). With sensor drones granting range, it could even warrant to make it off-brand Conquest, aka worse shield stats that average in the fleet but a little more flux to snipe better.
Qwaar (aka off-brand Odyssey)on the other hand is ~35k shield EHP, which is ~30% more that Odyssey. In fact Chronos battlecruiser from SWP mod (which at this points is basically Vanilla) have ~34k EHP on shields (and a single large turret). If we continue to compare it to Odyssey: better firing arcs, better overall set of weapons(YMMV), comparable if a little worse dissipation, sadly no fighters. Overall, tanky without hindering dps that much.
So yea, battlecruisers are better than Vanilla analogues, no doubt.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2019, 01:53:48 PM by Khornaar »
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Gotcha!

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Re: [0.9.1a] Hiigaran Descendants v2.0.4
« Reply #800 on: October 18, 2019, 03:25:45 PM »

I'm positive it's harder for bombasticmori and NoFoodAfterMidnight to balance out my -5- years-old mod, than it was for me when I made the whole thing from scratch.  ;D
It's apparent a lot of things changed in this game in all those years.

Kudos to your tenacity (the both of you). :)
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NoFoodAfterMidnight

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Re: [0.9.1a] Hiigaran Descendants v2.0.4
« Reply #801 on: October 19, 2019, 09:05:36 PM »

Got a new update. It adds a bunch of MagicLib stuff and does require it, idk if that's alright I can take it out if it's not.

http://www.mediafire.com/file/dsm8s1mofpt9cts/Hiigaran_Descendants_v4.zip/file

Fixed the AI not spawning with weapons and a whole bunch of balance changes
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Nick XR

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Re: [0.9.1a] Hiigaran Descendants v2.0.4
« Reply #802 on: October 21, 2019, 04:36:18 PM »

It's great to see this mod active again!  Great work all around.

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Re: [0.9.1a] Hiigaran Descendants v2.0.4
« Reply #803 on: October 22, 2019, 01:11:46 AM »

Got a new update. It adds a bunch of MagicLib stuff and does require it, idk if that's alright I can take it out if it's not.

http://www.mediafire.com/file/dsm8s1mofpt9cts/Hiigaran_Descendants_v4.zip/file

Fixed the AI not spawning with weapons and a whole bunch of balance changes
I guess I'm not against it if it makes for an improvement. And I prefer you guys have all the freedom.

I'm curious what changes you made that require that mod?
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NoFoodAfterMidnight

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Re: [0.9.1a] Hiigaran Descendants v2.0.4
« Reply #804 on: October 22, 2019, 02:15:04 AM »

I guess I'm not against it if it makes for an improvement. And I prefer you guys have all the freedom.

I'm curious what changes you made that require that mod?

I added trails and various effects to weapons and projectiles, mostly to the energy weapons. Like this: http://puu.sh/EvukK/ce2eef5e6c.jpg and this: http://puu.sh/Evum1/99809c6166.jpg
« Last Edit: October 22, 2019, 02:18:09 AM by NoFoodAfterMidnight »
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Gotcha!

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Re: [0.9.1a] Hiigaran Descendants v2.0.4
« Reply #805 on: October 22, 2019, 03:52:59 AM »

Well, as long as the ion beams still look like Homeworld ion beams. :P
I really need to check out both you guys' work soon. Ugh, I'll get around to it.
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rditto48801

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Re: [0.9.1a] Hiigaran Descendants v2.0.4
« Reply #806 on: October 22, 2019, 07:40:57 PM »

I had an odd crash on the main menu, looking at the log, it looks to be caused by a missing ship hull variant relating to this mod.

Last part of the log.
Code
179669 [Thread-4] ERROR com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatMain  - java.lang.RuntimeException: Ship hull variant [hii_tarii_wing] not found!
java.lang.RuntimeException: Ship hull variant [hii_tarii_wing] not found!
at com.fs.starfarer.loading.B.super(Unknown Source)
at com.fs.starfarer.loading.B.super(Unknown Source)
at com.fs.starfarer.combat.systems.N.Ò00000(Unknown Source)
at com.fs.starfarer.combat.systems.N.advanceImpl(Unknown Source)
at com.fs.starfarer.combat.systems.F.advance(Unknown Source)
at com.fs.starfarer.combat.entities.Ship.advance(Unknown Source)
at com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatEngine.advanceInner(Unknown Source)
at com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatEngine.advance(Unknown Source)
at com.fs.starfarer.title.TitleScreenState.advance(Unknown Source)
at com.fs.starfarer.BaseGameState.traverse(Unknown Source)
at com.fs.state.AppDriver.begin(Unknown Source)
at com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatMain.main(Unknown Source)
at com.fs.starfarer.StarfarerLauncher$1.run(Unknown Source)
at java.lang.Thread.run(Unknown Source)

I have Hiigaran Descendants v4
The crash occurred (coincidentally/ironically) after a Hiigaran Kuun-Lan had flown by, when it should have been spawning in another ship/fighter to fly by.
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NoFoodAfterMidnight

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Re: [0.9.1a] Hiigaran Descendants v2.0.4
« Reply #807 on: October 22, 2019, 11:35:26 PM »

Yeah I've experienced that crash too, it's pretty rare. I'm not actually sure what's causing it because there's no references to that variant in the list of variants for the title screen battle. I've removed all the carriers from the title screen variants and hopefully that fixes it in v5 but it's pretty hard to test.
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Kpatrol88

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Re: [0.9.1a] Hiigaran Descendants v2.0.4
« Reply #808 on: October 23, 2019, 06:02:32 AM »

Hello there, I'm new to the forums but I've been playing with the mod ever since the new compatibility patches came out. Been loving it so far, but I've come across a few bugs.
Note: I am using NoFood's v4 of the mod.

- I'm probably not supposed to have them considering their descriptions, but whenever I place a custom order for the Goliath and Black Swan (pirate) Hiigaran capital ships, at the end of the month instead of receiving the ships it maxes out my production costs and turns them into fuel, supplies and crew. Not the worst thing and somewhat exploitable but still probably not as intended all around.

- There's a particular cruiser that causes a hard game crash when clicked on in the fleet doctrine screen. The Jneer I believe.

- Not sure if its this mod in particular since I've pretty much stuffed nearly every compatible mod and faction mod into my game, but I've been getting semi-random fatal:null errors ever since I picked up the Hiigaran ship and weapons blueprint packs in-game. Maybe someone here can point me in the right direction?
Code
13421287 [Thread-4] ERROR com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatMain  - java.lang.NullPointerException
java.lang.NullPointerException
at com.fs.starfarer.api.impl.campaign.fleets.DefaultFleetInflater.inflate(DefaultFleetInflater.java:384)
at com.fs.starfarer.campaign.fleet.CampaignFleet.inflateIfNeeded(Unknown Source)
at com.fs.starfarer.ui.impl.StandardTooltipV2.createFleetTooltip(Unknown Source)
at com.fs.starfarer.campaign.C.o00000(Unknown Source)
at com.fs.starfarer.campaign.CampaignEngine.advance(Unknown Source)
at com.fs.starfarer.campaign.CampaignState.advance(Unknown Source)
at com.fs.starfarer.BaseGameState.traverse(Unknown Source)
at com.fs.state.AppDriver.begin(Unknown Source)
at com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatMain.main(Unknown Source)
at com.fs.starfarer.StarfarerLauncher$1.run(Unknown Source)
at java.lang.Thread.run(Unknown Source)
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NoFoodAfterMidnight

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Re: [0.9.1a] Hiigaran Descendants v2.0.4
« Reply #809 on: October 24, 2019, 01:07:09 PM »

Hello there, I'm new to the forums but I've been playing with the mod ever since the new compatibility patches came out. Been loving it so far, but I've come across a few bugs.
Note: I am using NoFood's v4 of the mod.

- I'm probably not supposed to have them considering their descriptions, but whenever I place a custom order for the Goliath and Black Swan (pirate) Hiigaran capital ships, at the end of the month instead of receiving the ships it maxes out my production costs and turns them into fuel, supplies and crew. Not the worst thing and somewhat exploitable but still probably not as intended all around.

- There's a particular cruiser that causes a hard game crash when clicked on in the fleet doctrine screen. The Jneer I believe.

- Not sure if its this mod in particular since I've pretty much stuffed nearly every compatible mod and faction mod into my game, but I've been getting semi-random fatal:null errors ever since I picked up the Hiigaran ship and weapons blueprint packs in-game. Maybe someone here can point me in the right direction?

It sounds like the issues you're describing are from updating to v4 in the same game as you were using v3, which unfortunately seems to cause some problems I didn't anticipate or see until way after I released v4.
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