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[Sonlirain]

In the description it has a "respectable for its class weapons package".

BUT

The gemini packs the same # of flight decks (despite being a civilian freighter) and BETTER weaponry (allowing it to fit 2 flak cannons making it virtually immune to all but the largest missile barrage).

The condor is overall a MUCH weaker ship compared to gemini since its only upsodes are the missile reloader allowing it to continuously harass enemies at range with a barrage of quickly reloading LRMs and having more armor.

HOWEVER beyond the missile launcher it has only 2 small balistic hardpoints
TWO
SMALL balistic hardpoints.
And small balistic PD is probably the worst PD in the game unless you mass it so the poor thing will most likely get its ass handed to it by a gemini (a CIVILIAN freighter)

My suggestion?
Simply replace ONE of its hardpoints (the one with full 360 deg rotation) with a medium hardpoint so it han mount a flak cannon.
That's it. That's all this ship needs... a way to survive small time missile strikes.

[Gothars]

That would make the Condor very similar to the Gemini. I think the best way to to differentiate the two is to emphasize the Condor's carrier capabilities. The Gemini, according to its description, has only a very small flight deck, while the Condor should be more or less defined by its flight deck.

Which might happen:

Will there be any direct difference in fighter replacement speed between carriers (with the same number of decks)? Or maybe there  will be a indirect effect because of better CR upkeep on certain ships? Or is a Gemini (freighter) still just as good a carrier as an Condor (dedicated carrier)?

Not at this point. I'm thinking about adding built-in hullmodsfeatures, though (i.e. a hullmod that can't be removed from a hull), that could do this among other things. Not 100% on the idea, though.

[BillyRueben]

There is also the fact that the Condor is cheaper and much more widely available than the Gemini is. You could almost see the Gemini as a direct upgrade from the Condor.

[Sonlirain]

That would make the Condor very similar to the Gemini. I think the best way to to differentiate the two is to emphasize the Condor's carrier capabilities. The Gemini, according to its description, has only a very small flight deck, while the Condor should be more or less defined by its flight deck.

Both are similar right now... but the gemini is all across the board better at everything other than armor and LRM reload speed (since it uses a different system) imo one medium slot would solve most of condors problems... but a flight deck buf would be a nice alternative.

There is also the fact that the Condor is cheaper and much more widely available than the Gemini is. You could almost see the Gemini as a direct upgrade from the Condor.

But that would mean a small civilian freighter with a TINY flight deck for repairing mining drones is flat out better than a freighter  that was remodelled and rebuilt with the single purpouse of serving as a carrier.

[Nanostrike]

That would make the Condor very similar to the Gemini. I think the best way to to differentiate the two is to emphasize the Condor's carrier capabilities. The Gemini, according to its description, has only a very small flight deck, while the Condor should be more or less defined by its flight deck.

Both are similar right now... but the gemini is all across the board better at everything other than armor and LRM reload speed (since it uses a different system) imo one medium slot would solve most of condors problems... but a flight deck buf would be a nice alternative.

There is also the fact that the Condor is cheaper and much more widely available than the Gemini is. You could almost see the Gemini as a direct upgrade from the Condor.

But that would mean a small civilian freighter with a TINY flight deck for repairing mining drones is flat out better than a freighter  that was remodelled and rebuilt with the single purpouse of serving as a carrier.

A much, much more MODERN Civillian craft replacing something that was basically jury-rigged to serve as a carrier.  In this game, High-Tech pretty much beats the crap out of Low-Tech stuff, so this is to be expected.

[BillyRueben]

There is also the fact that the Condor is cheaper and much more widely available than the Gemini is. You could almost see the Gemini as a direct upgrade from the Condor.

But that would mean a small civilian freighter with a TINY flight deck for repairing mining drones is flat out better than a freighter  that was remodelled and rebuilt with the single purpouse of serving as a carrier.

Not going to lie: I am 100% OK with that. The Condor is just a cheap and dirty way of getting a flight deck, and the Gemini is a better way of doing it.

[Gothars]

Not going to lie: I am 100% OK with that. The Condor is just a cheap and dirty way of getting a flight deck, and the Gemini is a better way of doing it.

That's not in the spirit of the game, though. More expensive ships are not supposed to be straight updates. They normally have areas where their capabilities overlap and exceed those of their cheaper counterparts, and other areas where the predecessors can hold their ground and thus stay relevant i their niche. The Condor is one of the few, and imo the only good example of that pattern being broken.
(That's the fault of the missing differentiation between flight decks, of course. Gemini, Condor, Atlas, Venture and Odyssey all have the same.)

I would normally not have much of a problem with the existence of straightforward upgrades, but the number of ships in Sector is limited enough to make every ship count.

[BillyRueben]

There are plenty of "low tier, cheap & dirty" ships in this game, as there should be.

Need fire support but don't have a lot of cash? Buy a Buffalo Mk II.

Need a cheap escort ship or two? Buy a few Talon wings.

Need a cheap all-around boost to your fleet? Buy a Hound.

And, as already stated: Need a cheap flight deck? Buy a Condor.

In my view, these are ships that simply "plug the hole" in your fleet until you can replace them with something more capable. There is nothing wrong with that in my eyes.

[FloW]

That's not in the spirit of the game, though. More expensive ships are not supposed to be straight updates. They normally have areas where their capabilities overlap and exceed those of their cheaper counterparts, and other areas where the predecessors can hold their ground and thus stay relevant i their niche. The Condor is one of the few, and imo the only good example of that pattern being broken.

The Condor is a Tarsus turned into a carrier. The Tarsus is one of the smallest freighters, and also the fastest. As such it is a good trading vessel and I'm sure that every faction uses them. Now, even though it does say that conversions into Condors are rare, the Condor is probably the easiest carrier to acquire/produce. Point being: The strongpoint of the Condor might as well be it's cheap price and high availability. So while it might not be strong combat-wise, the big advantage shows in the campaign.

[Gothars]

There are plenty of "low tier, cheap & dirty" ships in this game, as there should be.

Need fire support but don't have a lot of cash? Buy a Buffalo Mk II.

Need a cheap escort ship or two? Buy a few Talon wings.

Need a cheap all-around boost to your fleet? Buy a Hound.

And, as already stated: Need a cheap flight deck? Buy a Condor.

In my view, these are ships that simply "plug the hole" in your fleet until you can replace them with something more capable. There is nothing wrong with that in my eyes.

Nah, those other ships are more than hole pluggers. Of course there are better alternatives for the overall role they fill, but all of those ships have something that distinguishes them.

The Buffalo MK.2 is the obnoxious missile spammer and the only destroyer without shields.
The Hound has unmatched mobility and is great at distracting superior enemies.
Talon wings are close to being a poor mans Wasps, but their armor and lower FP still make them different enough.

Only the Condor is really nothing but a worse Gemini, even the FP costs are the same (whatever that will mean for the new deployment system).

The strongpoint of the Condor might as well be it's cheap price and high availability. So while it might not be strong combat-wise, the big advantage shows in the campaign.

Price and availability certainly are important differences, but I don't think its enough to make a ship interesting. I mean, that's basically a given, even the most straightforward and boring weapon upgrade in some shooter still costs more and is available later than weaker versions.

Although, now that the overall number of flight decks in the fleet actually really matters, a cheap flightdeck, available in numbers, might become a selling point with much more importance. Still, I think it's a good idea to make the most of the ships we have.

[BillyRueben]

Spoiler

There are plenty of "low tier, cheap & dirty" ships in this game, as there should be.

Need fire support but don't have a lot of cash? Buy a Buffalo Mk II.

Need a cheap escort ship or two? Buy a few Talon wings.

Need a cheap all-around boost to your fleet? Buy a Hound.

And, as already stated: Need a cheap flight deck? Buy a Condor.

In my view, these are ships that simply "plug the hole" in your fleet until you can replace them with something more capable. There is nothing wrong with that in my eyes.

[close]

Nah, those other ships are more than hole pluggers. Of course there are better alternatives for the overall role they fill, but all of those ships have something that distinguishes them.

The Buffalo MK.2 is the obnoxious missile spammer and the only destroyer without shields.
The Hound has unmatched mobility and is great at distracting superior enemies.
Talon wings are close to being a poor mans Wasps, but their armor and lower FP still make them different enough.

Only the Condor is really nothing but a worse Gemini, even the FP costs are the same (whatever that will mean for the new deployment system).

Might just have to agree to disagree then. I find the Hound to be a low-end version of the Tempest (combat wise), the Buffalo a low-end version of the the [large cruiser with a flight deck, can't remember the name of it], and the Talon to be a poor man's Wasp like you said.

[Sonlirain]

Talons can be suprisingly good for the price since they are one of the fastest fighters in the game (200 combat speed) AND when flown by elite pilots they are quite decent at shooting down missiles.

Oh and by the way... even with my suggested buff condor wouldn't be nearly as good as gemini.
It's just 1 medium bali slot and 1 small bali slot against 2 medium bali slots.
Assuming both ships are out of missiles in a slugfest the gemini would probably win anyway (note that gemini has midtech drones as a system).

I just was the condor to be capable of repelling missile strikes with SOME decency.
It's just ONE flak cannon after all... nothing that would break the game.

[hadesian]

TBH, I think that if the Gemini and Condor exchanged their kind of background lore and the Gemini became the more expensive basic military carrier and the condor became the cheapass military carrier nobody would bat an eyelash

[Modest]

For me, both Condor and Gemini are very similar, but Gemini is just better... And I do not see any problem with that. In my opinion having cheaper infirior ship and more expensive better ship is good. Where I see a problem is that description of Condor is mentioning those "respectable for its class weapons package", while really it is "laughable even for it's class weapons package". I would go for changing description so it actually match what You are getting. Especially if Condor may (as have been noted by others) become cheaper and more common to obtain, which in turn with new fighter mechanic may be very important factor (to have one more flight deck, or not to have).

[TJJ]

Switch out the Condor's fast missile racks for something vaguely useful; problem solved.

Burn drive might be a bit samey, but I think it'd work quite well at giving it a uniqueness within the carrier class.