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Author Topic: Fighter Update  (Read 65974 times)

SeaBee

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Re: Fighter Update
« Reply #15 on: June 07, 2013, 04:03:14 PM »

This is really exciting stuff. Fighters are going to be much more fun to use and fight against!
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Decer304

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Re: Fighter Update
« Reply #16 on: June 07, 2013, 04:18:50 PM »

Awsome, Fighters and Carriers actually have some use now. I'm excited.
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Gigalith

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Re: Fighter Update
« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2013, 04:35:13 PM »

Loving the idea so far, especially that fighter wings don't die if you have a carrier. As-is, campaign fighters hardly last.

If replacements are automatically made, what's the point of individual fighters retreating? Lower supply cost to repair/no CR loss? Also, how does it pick what fighter to replace? First come first serve, by value, by order in the fleet screen, by wing closest to death?
 
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Gothars

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Re: Fighter Update
« Reply #18 on: June 07, 2013, 05:28:24 PM »

Oh, I like it a lot. Seems to make anti fighter warfare a much more tactical sport. Single fighters flying around is nice too, in German you'd call the "livelier feel" having a high Wuselfaktor. I love me some Wuselfaktor, jawohl!
Hope the new assignments are flexible enough to meet the demands, though. Seems as if the shifting front lines of a battle could force you to relocate your rally points as often as CP permit.

Of course I have another bunch of questions, please take that as a sign of my great interest... :)


Will there be any direct difference in fighter replacement speed between carriers (with the same number of decks)? Or maybe there  will be a indirect effect because of better CR upkeep on certain ships? Or is a Gemini (freighter) still just as good a carrier as an Condor (dedicated carrier)?


Fighters stop deploying once they have dropped to 0% CR, right? Will the death of the last fighter mean the destruction of the wing?


And finally, about bombers and fighters returning for rearmament:

- Will it cost as much CR as replacing a craft? Less? Nothing?

- Say a Piranha wing lost one craft during a strike run. The two remaining bombers will now return to rearm. Assuming I have no rally point (out of CR or shifting front lines), will the replacement bomber go on another run on his own?
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Alex

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Re: Fighter Update
« Reply #19 on: June 07, 2013, 05:47:55 PM »

Alex, IMHO, You really need to add an assortment of new ships. There is just no real variation right now. It's all pick this if you want a carrier, This if you want an energy cruiser..... etc

We'll probably end up adding a few ships, especially to fill in any gaps; such as that 2-deck carrier. I wouldn't expect anything crazy, though - the last thing I want is to have a bunch of ships without enough differentiation. There are already 30ish ships, too, so that's a pretty good number. Any new ships will be added judiciously, especially since there's likely to be a need for a number of non-combat ships in the future. Quality over quantity and all that.


If replacements are automatically made, what's the point of individual fighters retreating? Lower supply cost to repair/no CR loss? Also, how does it pick what fighter to replace? First come first serve, by value, by order in the fleet screen, by wing closest to death?
And finally, about bombers and fighters returning for rearmament:

- Will it cost as much CR as replacing a craft? Less? Nothing?

The CR hit is actually applied when a fighter is lost. So, a fighter that manages to return to a carrier amounts to a free replacement.
 
Oh, I like it a lot. Seems to make anti fighter warfare a much more tactical sport. Single fighters flying around is nice too, in German you'd call the "livelier feel" having a high Wuselfaktor. I love me some Wuselfaktor, jawohl!

Hah, that's a great word.

Hope the new assignments are flexible enough to meet the demands, though. Seems as if the shifting front lines of a battle could force you to relocate your rally points as often as CP permit.

Yeah, haven't played around with it enough to really say, though battle lines don't tend to shift *that* much. I'd thought about allowing "fighter rendezvous" on ships, but then it's a bit of a quagmire (why not allow "rally strike force", too? "defend"? etc?). Mulling it over in the back of my mind.


Will there be any direct difference in fighter replacement speed between carriers (with the same number of decks)? Or maybe there  will be a indirect effect because of better CR upkeep on certain ships? Or is a Gemini (freighter) still just as good a carrier as an Condor (dedicated carrier)?

Not at this point. I'm thinking about adding built-in hullmodsfeatures, though (i.e. a hullmod that can't be removed from a hull), that could do this among other things. Not 100% on the idea, though.

Fighters stop deploying once they have dropped to 0% CR, right? Will the death of the last fighter mean the destruction of the wing?

Right. And no, it won't. You'll get it back after the battle, just at 0% CR. Actually, if you deploy a wing but no carrier, and lose it but DO have a carrier, you'll be able to deploy that same wing in the next engagement within the same encounter.

- Say a Piranha wing lost one craft during a strike run. The two remaining bombers will now return to rearm. Assuming I have no rally point (out of CR or shifting front lines), will the replacement bomber go on another run on his own?

It'll try to rejoin its wing. If the path takes it over a viable target, it'll drop bombs, but otherwise it won't pick a target of its own.
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Gothars

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Re: Fighter Update
« Reply #20 on: June 07, 2013, 06:20:38 PM »

Yeah, haven't played around with it enough to really say, though battle lines don't tend to shift *that* much. I'd thought about allowing "fighter rendezvous" on ships, but then it's a bit of a quagmire (why not allow "rally strike force", too? "defend"? etc?). Mulling it over in the back of my mind.

Indeed, why not? :)  Could cost double CP.

Another idea would be draggable rally points. Maybe allow all assignments to be moved once the first one was moved, for a (command channel) duration. Otherwise it would be quite CP costly at one CP per move, although even that would be an improvement about deleting old rally points. (Or use a more fine grained CP system, but that would not feel as nice.)

Might be unnecessary, but since its not only the battle line but also the carrier position and every hostile in between that matter, I'd expect it to be a nuisance.


It'll try to rejoin its wing. If the path takes it over a viable target, it'll drop bombs, but otherwise it won't pick a target of its own.

Smart :)
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MidnightSun

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Re: Fighter Update
« Reply #21 on: June 07, 2013, 08:37:58 PM »

I'm liking this system. Makes much more sense intuitively, and solves a bunch of gameplay problems all at once. I do have one question though: how will crew casualties work with this system? If fighter wings cannot really be destroyed while carriers are active, does that mean that you won't take any casualties for any crew assigned to fighter wings when your fleet contains carriers?
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Silver Silence

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Re: Fighter Update
« Reply #22 on: June 07, 2013, 09:20:08 PM »

Oh my. Could you imagine if fighters needed new crew for each loss? Some fighters need like 3 men to pilot.

"Could not launch fighter due to lack of available crew"


EDIT:
I sincerely hope not, else carriers are either gonna have to become troop transports, or you're gonna need enough of those troop transport ships to carry a planetary garrison.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2013, 09:26:11 PM by Silver Silence »
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zakastra

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Re: Fighter Update
« Reply #23 on: June 08, 2013, 03:04:39 AM »

This is a superb handling of the system, Every blog post I am astounded by your amazing insight into what makes a good game mechanic. Bravo Alex. bravo.

This also has another strong impact on the "one frigate kites the universe" playstyle, as that one frigate can't just kite away and snipe one fighter wing at a time, but has to deal with the constant trickle of reinforcements, It also means that a cruiser/capitol ship that can regularly take out 3/4 fighters of the wing but can never quite catch the last bugger will eventually destroy them out of attrition. Both of which are very good.

(I did used to love kiting huge fleets to death with a hyperion, But even so I heartily approve of these changes)
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frag971

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Re: Fighter Update
« Reply #24 on: June 08, 2013, 07:59:29 AM »

Awesome! One of my favorite playstyles is playing "The General" - having a strong carrier with lots of fighters and bombers doing the work.

Some questions tho:

-What about manned fighters VS unmanned drones?
Spoiler
Imo fighters lose CR because the pilot dies, but they can be improved from crew's rank (elite fighter pilot are better).
Drones on the other hand don't get better from crew rank but shouldn't lose any CR. In fact drones shouldn't have CR at all but consume supplies instead?
Perhaps take longer to rebuild? Maybe have different ships who can/can't deplot fighters or drones? Like a low-tech carrier can't deploy drones while a high-tech carrier can't deploy fighters and balance the crew/cr/supplies costs around it?
[close]

-What about the idea of different types of carriers for more ship variation?
Spoiler
Things like:
a catapult - fighters launch instantly at full speed
landing strip - fighters land instantly without slowing down
factory - much faster rebuild speed
external dock ports - faster rearm but can't rebuild
[close]

-Will there ever be an in-battle ammo resupply and repairs and will carriers support that role or would it be a separate "weapon" or ship?
Spoiler
Resupply ships that launch from carrier and deliver ammo to others.
Repair drones that repair other ships and resupply from carrier.
[close]

-Any plans for phased carriers/fighters?

-Any plans for suicide "fighters"? Probably drones that are build from carrier and suicide into other ships for lots of damage?
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Gothars

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Re: Fighter Update
« Reply #25 on: June 08, 2013, 09:22:43 AM »


-What about manned fighters VS unmanned drones?

I suspect that you are taking about Wasp- and Mining-wings? They actually ceased being drones back when ship systems were introduced, they are manned now. Drones only exist as ship systems now and are unrelated to crew or CR.
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Jazwana

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Re: Fighter Update
« Reply #26 on: June 08, 2013, 06:19:25 PM »

re: crew deaths-

The max crew size for fighter wings should be increased to a "squadron size" say 20-50 pilots with the skeleton size still the bare minimum to field your 4 talons.  Then you just end up burning through 1 or 2 crew for each fighter killed... expensive, but hey, pilots are people too, you know.  And no-one ever liked Gold 4 anyway.  ::)
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Vinya

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Re: Fighter Update
« Reply #27 on: June 08, 2013, 07:19:54 PM »

Love the buff, though I am somewhat disappointed that you didn't mention anything about carriers actually carrying fighters into battle/in the campaign map. For a fleet I can't imagine having fighter flying around your formation having much point other than wasting fuel and training new pilots. Having to actually deploy your carrier (assuming you have one in-fleet) to deploy your fighters makes some sense, but I suppose they could be deployed off-combat and fly into the fray.


Can't wait to massacre pirates with swarms of Wasps now :3
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CrashToDesktop

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Re: Fighter Update
« Reply #28 on: June 08, 2013, 08:22:46 PM »

I'm silently admiring this update. :) Don't expect me not to love fighters even more now...
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MidnightSun

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Re: Fighter Update
« Reply #29 on: June 08, 2013, 10:23:47 PM »

The max crew size for fighter wings should be increased to a "squadron size" say 20-50 pilots with the skeleton size still the bare minimum to field your 4 talons.  Then you just end up burning through 1 or 2 crew for each fighter killed... expensive, but hey, pilots are people too, you know.  And no-one ever liked Gold 4 anyway.  ::)

Waiting for Alex's official answer on this, but my thoughts:

The system you mentioned above would get really expensive really quickly. Fighter-heavy fleets will probably be very supply-intensive under this system, so burning through even green crew would be crippling.

I was thinking that a hand-wavy explanation would be that fighter crew "eject" when their craft are destroyed, and so perhaps you don't generally lose pilots unless you actually lose the entire wing (if your fleet is carrier-less).

But I could see how this would then make putting elite pilots in fighters a no-brainer. A less-elegant solution to this would be making crew loss in fighter wings proportional to CR decreases below a certain point (50%?). So, if you're ending the battle with the CR on a particular wing at 20%, you might lose one or two unlucky pilots who didn't get a chance to eject.

Love the buff, though I am somewhat disappointed that you didn't mention anything about carriers actually carrying fighters into battle/in the campaign map. For a fleet I can't imagine having fighter flying around your formation having much point other than wasting fuel and training new pilots. Having to actually deploy your carrier (assuming you have one in-fleet) to deploy your fighters makes some sense, but I suppose they could be deployed off-combat and fly into the fray.

That's an interesting point. A nice (and easy?) solution could be spawning fighter wings from the largest friendly carrier if one is already on the field, or spawning normally if a carrier has not entered battle.
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