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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

Author Topic: AI Improvements  (Read 5421 times)

Hari Seldon

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AI Improvements
« on: May 11, 2013, 10:10:29 AM »

Tips for improving the AI:

1. Stop waiting for overload.  If hard flux is almost maximum, vent.  If I have 2 or 3 capital ships I don't like swapping command between them just to tell them to vent flux and not overload.

2. Venting is far less dangerous if you go in reverse, away from the enemy.  Sometimes that is so successful that you take no damage while your shields are down, even with slow capital ships.

3. Less damaged ships should try to get in the way of people targeting heavily damaged ships.
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PCCL

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Re: AI Improvements
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2013, 10:22:03 AM »

1, the only time they ll intentionally overload is when health is so low that lowering it instead will kill them

2, i thought they already only vent when far from the enemy, is that not the case?

3, maybe, could be difficult to program though, maybe damaged ships should automatically engage farther away instead
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BillyRueben

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Re: AI Improvements
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2013, 10:25:23 AM »

2, i thought they already only vent when far from the enemy, is that not the case?

I think the AI will vent if they don't think they are in danger of being hit, so they might vent when close to an enemy that is also overloaded or near overload.
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Hari Seldon

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Re: AI Improvements
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2013, 10:36:31 AM »

1. Well they are going to lose their shields one way or the other so what is better?  Wait until the shields almost max out and then deactivate them and maybe vent, or let the shields overload and have everything shut down without absorbing any more damage than the first option of waiting until the last moment to take down shields?

2. Actually they do vent when far from the enemy but when they are not they should do what I do: go in full reverse while venting to try to minimize damage.  As I said that kept me barely out of range of their weapons while I was venting, so I took no damage even though they were pretty close.  Even though my ship was a slow capital ship.  I can overload enemy ships sometimes and sometimes my ships don't vent and overload.  I could try to do more to figure out why but as I said it should almost never happen but it does.

3. You're right.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2013, 10:39:27 AM by Hari Seldon »
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BillyRueben

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Re: AI Improvements
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2013, 11:27:38 AM »

Back on complaint #1: You have more options while near overload than you do while venting. Could venting give a better outcome? Yes. Could it also end up getting you killed in a situation where you might otherwise have lived? Yes as well.
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Silver Silence

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Re: AI Improvements
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2013, 11:52:38 AM »

1, the only time they ll intentionally overload is when health is so low that lowering it instead will kill them

Which, oftentimes, will kill them anyway because they'll only have like 5%HP left and no chance of getting away.
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Alex

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Re: AI Improvements
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2013, 04:08:30 PM »

Hi there. First off, welcome to the forum, and thanks for taking the time to provide some feedback!

1. Stop waiting for overload.  If hard flux is almost maximum, vent.  If I have 2 or 3 capital ships I don't like swapping command between them just to tell them to vent flux and not overload.

This was more or less addressed in earlier posts, but I'll just add that overload is often preferable to taking a missile or torpedo hit. When your hull is low, it's also marginally preferable to venting only to die from incoming fire in a second or two. Waiting to overload does get the absolute most out of shields, PD, and soft flux dissipation.

Simply venting when hard flux is high is very problematic - you miss out on chances to use PD to shoot own missiles, firing on an an enemy that's themselves venting, etc. There's really no easy answer as to when a "good" time to vent is. Any answer that seems easy and simple is likely the exact wrong thing to do in some circumstances :)


2. Venting is far less dangerous if you go in reverse, away from the enemy.  Sometimes that is so successful that you take no damage while your shields are down, even with slow capital ships.

Ships will pretty much always do this. Or try to, unless prevented by outside circumstances.

3. Less damaged ships should try to get in the way of people targeting heavily damaged ships.

There's some logic to do that in relatively narrow circumstances (basically, spontaneous "escort" behavior, without that command being given). In general, though, ship cooperation is a tricky thing to get right. They do some basics such as spreading out, trying to avoid getting in each others way as much as possible, etc.


If I can make a request - AI feedback is most helpful when accompanied by (at least somewhat) reproducible circumstances when the particular behavior occurs. It's complex enough that just because <behavior X> happened, doesn't mean that it always happens. In fact, it may never happen except for a specific ship loadout/opponent. So, if you point out a specific matchup and say, <problem X happens here>, that's really something I can bite into and possibly improve. If not, chances are I won't even be able to reproduce the situation.

(For example, point #2 above seems to imply that you've run into a situation - perhaps numerous times - where venting ships don't also pull back. They're, however, coded to do that, and in my experience, do. Without specifics, I really don't have anything to go on there.)
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Jazwana

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Re: AI Improvements
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2013, 05:48:35 PM »

Without testing at all before posting, it seems in my experience that while the AI does a good job backing off while it vents, it does a bad job chasing and continuing to fire at my ship when I back off to vent.  That may be why there appears to be an 'AI bug' or weakness because the human player rarely(?) gets punished heavily when venting in the 'gray zone' (not point blank but not clearly outside engagement range) while the human always follows up such opportunities to get in any damage on the AI.

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Alex

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Re: AI Improvements
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2013, 06:13:42 PM »

That's a really good point, I think you're right about that.

(The AI is definitely more cautious than would often be ideal in a situation like that, but I'd like to err on the side of caution there, rather than risk the player's ships being lost to over-aggressiveness. That said, I'll probably end up taking another look at it. There's nothing quite like those moments when you feel that the AI is really going for your throat.)
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Sproginator

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Re: AI Improvements
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2013, 06:19:17 PM »

I'd love to see more heavily armoured ships throwing themselves into the fire should you be faced with overwhelming firepower.
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BillyRueben

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Re: AI Improvements
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2013, 07:27:21 PM »

Can the AI behavior be separated between allied and enemy ships? If so, I'd like to see the enemy ships be a little more aggressive than friendly ships. There have been more than a few times where I've been on the ropes, but I was allowed to escape due to the extreme caution of the AI.
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Alex

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Re: AI Improvements
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2013, 07:42:19 PM »

Can the AI behavior be separated between allied and enemy ships? If so, I'd like to see the enemy ships be a little more aggressive than friendly ships. There have been more than a few times where I've been on the ropes, but I was allowed to escape due to the extreme caution of the AI.

Funny, I started thinking along the same lines here. On the one hand, it doesn't feel right to have differing AI for each side. On the other hand, it could significantly improve gameplay. So, compromise! If I ever do do that, I won't tell anyone about it :)

(By "improve gameplay", of course, I mean "result in more player deaths". My personal most memorable moment playing - recently - was when I was fighting a Mk.II with a poorly-outfitted Lasher, in the campaign. I actually couldn't outpace the Buffalo, and it made for some really tense moments trying to get some breathing space while it pursued tenaciously. Ended up losing that fight to a well-placed AM shot when it had a sliver of health left.)

(Another way to go about this could be to have the "default" officer personality be hyper-aggressive, with actual named officers generally taking a more cautious stance.)
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Silver Silence

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Re: AI Improvements
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2013, 11:24:12 AM »

Could they perhaps not raise shields all the time? It's very easy to kite ships by waving your guns menacingly in their direction, making them raise shields and lose flux speed bonuses, while you fly away without having fired a shot and still going at your no-flux overmax speeds.
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WKOB

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Re: AI Improvements
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2013, 12:10:31 PM »

I'd think raising shields every time a gun is pointed your way or raising shields only when necessary should be a personality trait.

I.e. Picard would never take a chance of harm coming to the ship and would likely always raise shields. Riker wouldn't want to risk losing all chance of catching up with an enemy just to possibly avoid some damage.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2013, 12:12:13 PM by Austupaio »
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Hari Seldon

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Re: AI Improvements
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2013, 09:03:03 AM »

Hi there. First off, welcome to the forum, and thanks for taking the time to provide some feedback!

Thank you for the welcome.

The Hegemony Capital ship when you max out your Single Ship Combat Skills and have all the best weapons can surprise the enemy if it gets to mid or close range and suddenly shoots everything when enemy ship flux is already high.  That is when the ships tend to overload.  I noticed that when they do not overload they just drop shields and fire weapons.  That is the aggressive behavior.  However, another behavior could be "tanking" where they alternate venting and using shields and going in reverse to try to minimize the number of weapons that will get in range.  That means less weapon fire but also much more damage absorption.  Of course capital ships are better tankers.

(Another way to go about this could be to have the "default" officer personality be hyper-aggressive, with actual named officers generally taking a more cautious stance.)

Officer personality sounds like the solution to choose between aggressive, tanking, dodging, etc.
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