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Author Topic: [0.6.2a] Exerelin - Dynamic Sector and Faction War - v0.644  (Read 917187 times)

Nanostrike

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Re: [0.54.1a] Exerelin - Dynamic System and Faction War - v0.55
« Reply #495 on: July 07, 2013, 05:37:42 PM »

The council is stupidly OP.  I can kill multiple Vanilla Destroyers with a single Frigate of theirs.  It's ridiculous.  But other than that, I'm having fun with the scale of the battles.

Fleets of 8+ Onslaughts or 2-3 Paragons make for some fun fights.
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ValkyriaL

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Re: [0.54.1a] Exerelin - Dynamic System and Faction War - v0.55
« Reply #496 on: July 07, 2013, 05:48:10 PM »

Well, council aint tagged as a vanilla balanced mod so its working as intended, and if you don't like em, theres a guide on how to add/remove factions on the OP. :3
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Cerevox

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Re: [0.54.1a] Exerelin - Dynamic System and Faction War - v0.55
« Reply #497 on: July 07, 2013, 06:14:41 PM »

I don't get the complaints about the council. They are strong but not that strong. Neutrino is so brokenly OP it isn't even funny and no one mentions them. Or the valkyries. From cruiser on down the valks are just slightly above average, but their cap ships are unbeatable. I mean that literally. If you have a decent level char flying a vatican mark4 valk cap ship no fleet can beat you, they simply can't field enough ships at one time to overwhelm you. Actually, forget overwhelm ,they can't even force the shields down.

There are quite a few OP, and some absurdly OP, things floating around in here. If you want to start lists of OP stuff, the better place to do it would be to start with what actually is balanced. Its a much shorter list.

Seriously though, this mod is awesome. I just wish it felt like I was having an actual effect on the wars. It just feels like the only thing that matters is who is getting the outsystem attack forces at that moment to back them. I wish there was some way I could dump supplies or cash into my faction to help them. Even with my vatican I can only lock down one planet.  :P
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Carabus

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Re: [0.54.1a] Exerelin - Dynamic System and Faction War - v0.55
« Reply #498 on: July 07, 2013, 06:56:50 PM »

The council is stupidly OP.  I can kill multiple Vanilla Destroyers with a single Frigate of theirs.  It's ridiculous.

It sounds like you played the Sparrow-class frigate.
I just played it too and I can say that is MASSIVELY overpowered. I just killed whole Independent Out-System Station Attack fleet in three battles using just one Sparrow frigate with default loadout. All this while playing with "Damage taken by your ship: Full" option (so not easy mode).

Some facts about the Sparrow:
- it has armament comparable to heavy destroyer or light cruiser (3 medium slots, 7 small slots) Well this is actually coparable to other Council frigates and not really a big issue by itself
- it has insane pool of 110 Ordnance Points. You can give it all weapons, maximum flux capacity and dissipation, and like 10 different hull mods before you run out of Ordnance Points.
- it has powerful shield with ONLY 0.4 FLUX/DAMAGE and good amount of flux capacity. It can face to face cruisers and make them run out of flux without being any close to get overloaded...
- it is very fast at 170 combat speed and has excelent maneuverability
- it has PHASE TELEPORTER! This is probably what makes it most overpowered in actual combat. It can teleport whole 7 times in a row before running out of flux. This means you can teleport into the middle of enemy fleet to an unshielded side of enemy ship, fire at it and then run away using teleports and repeat this ad infinitum. Your speed and teleport means you can never get caught and energy weapons mean you never run out of ammo. Killing whole fleets is easier than ever!
- It costs only 16560 credits and only 10 fleetpoints... Seriously WTF!

Imho it needs massive nerf in all mentioned stats and huge cost and fleetpoints increase before being any close to balanced.
Other Council ships are powerful too but nowhere near as bad as this.


Neutrino is so brokenly OP it isn't even funny and no one mentions them. Or the valkyries. From cruiser on down the valks are just slightly above average, but their cap ships are unbeatable. I mean that literally. If you have a decent level char flying a vatican mark4 valk cap ship no fleet can beat you, they simply can't field enough ships at one time to overwhelm you. Actually, forget overwhelm ,they can't even force the shields down.

I got the same feeling while playing. Neutrino and Valkyrians are definitely the strongest factions. No idea which units exactly as everything was killing me when I tried fighting them. :P
But the Council is very strong overall too, and has at least one absurdly OP unit (look above) and possibly more.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2013, 01:27:02 AM by Carabus »
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sirboomalot

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Re: [0.54.1a] Exerelin - Dynamic System and Faction War - v0.55
« Reply #499 on: July 07, 2013, 07:23:37 PM »

Zaphide did not create the council, and probably isn't going to alter another person's faction. He did however give you a way to remove them from the mod, and plenty of other factions to play as if the council feels too easy.
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ValkyriaL

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Re: [0.54.1a] Exerelin - Dynamic System and Faction War - v0.55
« Reply #500 on: July 07, 2013, 08:38:16 PM »

Vatican Mk.IV is purposely overpowered as an end game boss ship, the only way to acquire it in the standalone is to beat it, which is fairly simple if you take a look at its overall profile, tbh its kinda silly having it running around in normal fleets, however, my next version should sort that out for Exerelin.

For what i have seen, Vat IV is the only ship causing trouble and headaches for people, which is understandable as i've stated above, simply taking it out from the random fleet generator would make things a lot more balanced on the Valk side. :) 
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Cerevox

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Re: [0.54.1a] Exerelin - Dynamic System and Faction War - v0.55
« Reply #501 on: July 07, 2013, 09:35:33 PM »

Playing against it wouldn't be that hard. Most valk ships seem to have problems controlling their flux when firing and the Vatican is so slow to turn you can get a cruiser like the aurora and just sit right in front of it where it doesn't have any heavy guns and pound it down. The vatican only really becomes absurdly OP when a player is using it, although I imagine it is quite strong in ai vs ai battles too, since the ai wants to flank things and that is a bad idea with the vatican. You might actually want to leave the vatican in a few fleets though, multiple mods have super capital ships like it running around and without it the valks will get walked over by several factions.

The valks actually feel pretty balanced, they just have a huge amount of front loaded damage with their incendiary ammo. If you take them slow and careful they are pretty easy to pick apart in the AI's hands though. Honestly, the most annoying valk ship to play against is that horrible little jammer ship. That thing drives me crazy, but I love it being in there. It really fills a roll I don't see anywhere else. Valks are one of my favorite factions, and like I mentioned above, don't start feeling broken unless a player has certain of their ships set up in certain ways. Also, I don't know if the RNG is just trolling me, but there are a couple of cruisers/destroyers I never see that might be nice to have.

Yes, the sparrow is obviously made to be absurd. It can walk all over capital ships once you start shifting some of its equipment around. Most of the other council ships though only feel a level or two higher than average. The catch is that they are stronger across the board, they don't have any easy weakness to exploit which makes them an actual challenge for the player, for which I am glad.

The gedune would be massively strong if they actually had a cap ship, but without one they tend to get smashed by sheer size. As long as the fight sticks to cruiser size and down though they seem to win, simply because their ships are so mobile and have such a heavy punch right after moving.

I feel sorry for the antideluvians and the asp, they just get crushed. Anti's have that great armor and health, but without shields it is just too easy to cripple and destroy them. Asps, I think their weakness is obvious.

Nomads/Junk Pirates/Lotus/Interstellar Federation all have something interesting about them, but they are balanced to vanilla so they get walked on.  :-\

Shadowyards are really cool, and have some solid weapons, but so much of their stuff just feels flimsy or weak, I really don't play them much but they never put up much of a fight when I go after them.

Blackrock looks super cool, and their 2 cruisers, the stormcrow and nevermore, are monsters, but all the rest of their stuff feels weak. I would rather fight several of their cap ships than a single one of their cruisers.

Nihilic have incredible weapons, and their ships are strong stat-wise but due to their layout they are actually pretty easy to exploit. Nihilic do better on non-Nihilic ships. They just don't seem to have the kind of damage output they need to make them dangerous on their own.

Thule feel like a series of gimicks. Very cool gimicks that can catch you off guard if you don't know about them, but most thule ships seem to just fall apart in a standup slugfest, which is pretty easy to force. Their ships and weapons are creative and interesting but simply can't go toe to toe with most other ships it feels like.

Relics have some very unusual guns and strong shields, but with almost no armor and low hull they tend to get peeled apart fairly easily. The strange guns allow them to pull off some silly wins though. That Zapp :P

And finally the neutrino. The guys with those horrible little tiny shields. And those wacky infinite range photon things . And those splinter missiles. And those blasters, the really fast ones that make a huge amount of flux but hit like torpedoes. They are one of the few factions that I avoid fighting no matter what I am flying. They just have such massive damage output and they have those shields.... I think everyone knows what I am talking about with them.

If I was ranking factions by overall strength, with default load outs, and no shenanigans, in this mod, it would go something like this. Although keep in mind, some factions do better against one faction than another.

Neutrino, Council, Nihilic, Valkyrians, Gedune, Thule, Blackrock, Relic, Tri-Tachyon, Nomads, Intersteller Federation, Junk Pirates, Lotus, Independents, Shadowyards, Hegemony, Antediluvians, Pirates, ASP

Wow, that turned into quite a little essay.

Edit: I forgot the pirates!

Edit2: Was that council ship the sparrow or the dragonfly, I suddenly am not sure on the name.

Edit3: Upon further consideration, I am not sure how the thule actually win anything. Their cruisers/capital ships and half their destroyers are unable to actually do any real combat. An yet somehow, the ai losses to them. Go figure.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2013, 10:44:34 PM by Cerevox »
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Carabus

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Re: [0.54.1a] Exerelin - Dynamic System and Faction War - v0.55
« Reply #502 on: July 07, 2013, 11:13:46 PM »

Shadowyards are really cool, and have some solid weapons, but so much of their stuff just feels flimsy or weak, I really don't play them much but they never put up much of a fight when I go after them.

They are cool and each of their ships has some special ability which makes them interesting, but they suffer from lack of weapons diversity as most of their weapons are various types of CEPC, which have two problems:
- they have no accurate weapons to hit mobile targets. You can defeat their ships easily by strafing around them.
- they have no long range weapons, so it is easy to just skirmish and outrange them.


Yes, the sparrow is obviously made to be absurd. It can walk all over capital ships once you start shifting some of its equipment around. Most of the other council ships though only feel a level or two higher than average. The catch is that they are stronger across the board, they don't have any easy weakness to exploit which makes them an actual challenge for the player, for which I am glad.

The most absurd thing about Sparrow is that it is available to the player as starting ship, and on top of that it is already loaded with 10 different hull mods, which player doesn't otherwise have unlocked yet.
It can stay as elite unit but doesn't need to be so absurd, as right now it is far better than any of the other Council frigates which are very strong already. So this one unit definitely needs some manual tweaking to the stats, and definitely to cost and availability.

As for overall faction balance:
Zaphide's plan is to leave the factions units as they are and balance the factions using diplomacy. So strongest factions will be hated and fought by everyone or at least much more likely to be.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2013, 11:16:49 PM by Carabus »
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Tonny

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Re: [0.54.1a] Exerelin - Dynamic System and Faction War - v0.55
« Reply #503 on: July 07, 2013, 11:53:25 PM »

my setup so far (year 210):

Tenzen class cruiser x 3
Sandstorm X 2
Oppressor Heavy Interceptor Wing x 4
Venator Heavy Carrier
2 freighters from Council, now replaced by a Vatican mk III Supercarrier

i m so tired of my freighters getting damaged in autocombat. I have avoided it for awhile by reducing the crew, so they are not combat ready, but when you start to loose crew with your interceptors, the freighters do eventually get manned, even in they are on the very end of my fleetlist, and that is  a n n o y i n g. I can take on every battle now, but sometimes it is scary to fight against bigger (high tech) fleets

i love this mod and the game, but the first years it is very difficult to build up something without loosing it :-). Now, when all tech weapons are available, the game does (finally) change :-)
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Thule

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Re: [0.54.1a] Exerelin - Dynamic System and Faction War - v0.55
« Reply #504 on: July 08, 2013, 01:53:42 AM »

Spoiler
Playing against it wouldn't be that hard. Most valk ships seem to have problems controlling their flux when firing and the Vatican is so slow to turn you can get a cruiser like the aurora and just sit right in front of it where it doesn't have any heavy guns and pound it down. The vatican only really becomes absurdly OP when a player is using it, although I imagine it is quite strong in ai vs ai battles too, since the ai wants to flank things and that is a bad idea with the vatican. You might actually want to leave the vatican in a few fleets though, multiple mods have super capital ships like it running around and without it the valks will get walked over by several factions.

The valks actually feel pretty balanced, they just have a huge amount of front loaded damage with their incendiary ammo. If you take them slow and careful they are pretty easy to pick apart in the AI's hands though. Honestly, the most annoying valk ship to play against is that horrible little jammer ship. That thing drives me crazy, but I love it being in there. It really fills a roll I don't see anywhere else. Valks are one of my favorite factions, and like I mentioned above, don't start feeling broken unless a player has certain of their ships set up in certain ways. Also, I don't know if the RNG is just trolling me, but there are a couple of cruisers/destroyers I never see that might be nice to have.

Yes, the sparrow is obviously made to be absurd. It can walk all over capital ships once you start shifting some of its equipment around. Most of the other council ships though only feel a level or two higher than average. The catch is that they are stronger across the board, they don't have any easy weakness to exploit which makes them an actual challenge for the player, for which I am glad.

The gedune would be massively strong if they actually had a cap ship, but without one they tend to get smashed by sheer size. As long as the fight sticks to cruiser size and down though they seem to win, simply because their ships are so mobile and have such a heavy punch right after moving.

I feel sorry for the antideluvians and the asp, they just get crushed. Anti's have that great armor and health, but without shields it is just too easy to cripple and destroy them. Asps, I think their weakness is obvious.

Nomads/Junk Pirates/Lotus/Interstellar Federation all have something interesting about them, but they are balanced to vanilla so they get walked on.  :-\

Shadowyards are really cool, and have some solid weapons, but so much of their stuff just feels flimsy or weak, I really don't play them much but they never put up much of a fight when I go after them.

Blackrock looks super cool, and their 2 cruisers, the stormcrow and nevermore, are monsters, but all the rest of their stuff feels weak. I would rather fight several of their cap ships than a single one of their cruisers.

Nihilic have incredible weapons, and their ships are strong stat-wise but due to their layout they are actually pretty easy to exploit. Nihilic do better on non-Nihilic ships. They just don't seem to have the kind of damage output they need to make them dangerous on their own.

Thule feel like a series of gimicks. Very cool gimicks that can catch you off guard if you don't know about them, but most thule ships seem to just fall apart in a standup slugfest, which is pretty easy to force. Their ships and weapons are creative and interesting but simply can't go toe to toe with most other ships it feels like.

Relics have some very unusual guns and strong shields, but with almost no armor and low hull they tend to get peeled apart fairly easily. The strange guns allow them to pull off some silly wins though. That Zapp :P

And finally the neutrino. The guys with those horrible little tiny shields. And those wacky infinite range photon things . And those splinter missiles. And those blasters, the really fast ones that make a huge amount of flux but hit like torpedoes. They are one of the few factions that I avoid fighting no matter what I am flying. They just have such massive damage output and they have those shields.... I think everyone knows what I am talking about with them.

If I was ranking factions by overall strength, with default load outs, and no shenanigans, in this mod, it would go something like this. Although keep in mind, some factions do better against one faction than another.

Neutrino, Council, Nihilic, Valkyrians, Gedune, Thule, Blackrock, Relic, Tri-Tachyon, Nomads, Intersteller Federation, Junk Pirates, Lotus, Independents, Shadowyards, Hegemony, Antediluvians, Pirates, ASP

Wow, that turned into quite a little essay.

Edit: I forgot the pirates!

Edit2: Was that council ship the sparrow or the dragonfly, I suddenly am not sure on the name.

Edit3: Upon further consideration, I am not sure how the thule actually win anything. Their cruisers/capital ships and half their destroyers are unable to actually do any real combat. An yet somehow, the ai losses to them. Go figure.
[close]

Cool personal breakdown of your mod experience.
If it is okay with you i would like to use your input over here
We could use guys like you who put down their knowledge and maybe have suggestion as to achieve a more balanced experience overall.
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Silver Silence

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Re: [0.54.1a] Exerelin - Dynamic System and Faction War - v0.55
« Reply #505 on: July 08, 2013, 02:57:57 AM »

The council is stupidly OP.  I can kill multiple Vanilla Destroyers with a single Frigate of theirs.  It's ridiculous.

It sounds like you played the Sparrow-class frigate.
I just played it too and I can say that is MASSIVELY overpowered. I just killed whole Independent Out-System Station Attack fleet in three battles using just one Sparrow frigate with default loadout. All this while playing with "Damage taken by your ship: Full" option (so not easy mode).

Some facts about the Sparrow:
- it has armament comparable to heavy destroyer or light cruiser (3 medium slots, 7 small slots) Well this is actually coparable to other Council frigates and not really a big issue by itself
- it has insane pool of 110 Ordnance Points. You can give it all weapons, maximum flux capacity and dissipation, and like 10 different hull mods before you run out of Ordnance Points.
- it has powerful shield with ONLY 0.4 FLUX/DAMAGE and good amount of flux capacity. It can face to face cruisers and make them run out of flux without being any close to get overloaded...
- it is very fast at 170 combat speed and has excelent maneuverability
- it has PHASE TELEPORTER! This is probably what makes it most overpowered in actual combat. It can teleport whole 7 times in a row before running out of flux. This means you can teleport into the middle of enemy fleet to an unshielded side of enemy ship, fire at it and then run away using teleports and repeat this ad infinitum. Your speed and teleport means you can never get caught and energy weapons mean you never run out of ammo. Killing whole fleets is easier than ever!
- It costs only 16560 credits and only 10 fleetpoints... Seriously WTF!

The Defender is my WMD of choice in the Council arsenal.  ;)
Cheaper than a Sparrow, two lasers that give the ship a combined DPS in the region of 1000+ and a complimentary set of 16 torpedoes for when you need that extra oomph.


I don't get the complaints about the council. They are strong but not that strong. Neutrino is so brokenly OP it isn't even funny and no one mentions them. Or the valkyries. From cruiser on down the valks are just slightly above average, but their cap ships are unbeatable. I mean that literally. If you have a decent level char flying a vatican mark4 valk cap ship no fleet can beat you, they simply can't field enough ships at one time to overwhelm you. Actually, forget overwhelm ,they can't even force the shields down.

There are quite a few OP, and some absurdly OP, things floating around in here. If you want to start lists of OP stuff, the better place to do it would be to start with what actually is balanced. Its a much shorter list.

Seriously though, this mod is awesome. I just wish it felt like I was having an actual effect on the wars. It just feels like the only thing that matters is who is getting the outsystem attack forces at that moment to back them. I wish there was some way I could dump supplies or cash into my faction to help them. Even with my vatican I can only lock down one planet.  :P
ur

The Council are just an overall better fleet of ships, thus everyone cries OP, though they were never made for vanilla balance so yup....

The Neutrino, their smaller ships are kinda meh. They generally don't have the durability to stand up to much, even with a 0.2 shield.  However their capital ships, notably Banshee and Hildolfr with those neutron cannons (the ones that fire slow moving sparkles of doom at you)..... I just don't have words to describe. The splinter missiles I've never found to be much of a problem, flak will deny them pretty well as will burst PD if you have enough of it.

Valkyrians, eh, that jammer ship infuriates me and I will focus those down regardless of what else might be lurking around, but I think that means it's doing it's job successfully. Many Valk weapons are at that typical assault range of ~900SU, which makes it easy to kite them with 1000+ ranged weapons like Maulers or Gauss Cannons. They're powerful, but they're slow, so it's almost a case of it being your own fault if they've caught up to you seeing as they only creep along at like 60-70m/s at best. They're also rather ponderous with their turning, to the point that you can get some of the faster capitals in the game to face hug the engines of the Vaticans.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2013, 03:28:25 AM by Silver Silence »
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MrDavidoff

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Re: [0.54.1a] Exerelin - Dynamic System and Faction War - v0.55
« Reply #506 on: July 08, 2013, 04:42:37 AM »

I love how everyone writes to Zaphide to do something about xx factions balance, but no-one posts about it in the mod in question parent topic  :D

Anyways, regarding my Old Council Loyalists - namely the Sparrow and Defender, both were nerfed in the next update.
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Zaphide

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Re: [0.54.1a] Exerelin - Dynamic System and Faction War - v0.55
« Reply #507 on: July 08, 2013, 05:10:16 AM »

First off, feedback is great and quite a bit of the mod has been based on feedback so far, so thanks and please keep it coming :)

In general, I'm probably not going to do a lot to balance individual factions. This is for a number of reasons:
 - It would take a lot of time and I feel it is somewhat wasted work for the immediate future (perhaps post StarSector 0.6 though).
 - I don't mind a faction being more/less powerful per ship IF the game systems/structures can even it out in other ways ( a big if).
 - I like a lot of the individuality of the modded factions, some of which are the very things people think make them OP.
 - Everyone has a slightly different opinion on balance, so I would prefer to offer more customisation for those that want it rather than tinker myself.
 - Some factions (i.e. Neutrino) feel a bit more OP as the auto-resolve favors them more than it should.

I realise that this approach will probably annoy some people but I feel it is better to provide support for a larger number of factions, which can then be trimmed as the player likes.

Cerevox, I mainly agree with your assessment (perhaps Neutrino lower, and Shadowyards slightly higher but similar enough), but as you say some factions do better vs. others, and some faction ships are more receptive to player control and the increased OP spending.  I am very keen to see how StarSector 0.6 shakes up the balance between factions, as something like CR could play a massive role in bringing higher tech/deploy cost factions (TriTachyon) down a peg or two, while at the same time lifting the lower tech factions (Hegemony, Pirates).

Time to respond to a couple of points :)

Council Sparrow
I agree it is massively OP (especially when the player is controlling it and with extra ordinance points) and given it soundly defeats even other council ships that should tell you something :P I originally didn't include it (for this very reason) but added it in later. Potentially it could be removed from appearing again, or perhaps it could only be available as a starter ship (OmniFactory though... hmmm) so that a rookie player can start with an 'easy mode' ship :)

Disabling Factions
Most people know this but just in case: It is trivially easy to disable any factions, please see the first post in this thread for instructions.

Neutrino
Neutrino profit from an issue with the auto-resolve calculation that gives them a massive advantage. I suspect that come StarSector 0.6 this will become a non-issue. I am hopeless at piloting Neutrino ships :P but sometimes the AI can use their great shields to good effect.

Valkyrian
Yeah their cap ships are pretty good. Perhaps we need a list ships that only appear extremely rarely for each faction. I dislike the idea of removing things entirely, but locking them away a bit more could work.

Lack of player impact on faction outcomes
Yeah I think this really needs to be the next development focus (after the current one :P). I'm fairly keen to have the player have a greater impact on faction diplomacy and fleet direction, and have a few ideas that will (hopefully) be great once implemented :)

Development Involvement
Not everyone is interested but if you do want to get involved with the development in anyway, please feel free to send me a PM or checkout the in-dev version (details in first post) :)
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Zaphide

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Re: [0.54.1a] Exerelin - Dynamic System and Faction War - v0.55
« Reply #508 on: July 08, 2013, 05:11:12 AM »

I love how everyone writes to Zaphide to do something about xx factions balance, but no-one posts about it in the mod in question parent topic  :D

Anyways, regarding my Old Council Loyalists - namely the Sparrow and Defender, both were nerfed in the next update.

Ah well, maybe I should start forwarding it on ;)
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Silver Silence

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Re: [0.54.1a] Exerelin - Dynamic System and Faction War - v0.55
« Reply #509 on: July 08, 2013, 05:24:17 AM »

Indeed. Even though Zaphide has provided instructions to easily remove a faction's presence in Exerelin, people still feel the need to yabber on about the imbalance of the factions here. Even though Zaphide's OP states that his intention with Exerelin was to bring together several mods he liked, people still demand balancing. My only issues are that virtually every large Valkyrian fleet has a Vat IV in it, and in the original mod you only see that thing once. And that I've noticed medium sized IFed fleets using freighters like combat ships. Pretty funny when a fuel barge strolls into the fray in the middle of a skirmish.  :D


EDIT:
Ninja'd...

Autoresolve does tip the balance quite a bit. Autoresolve lets the ASP Syndicate roll over fleets, when in combat those things are just armed merchant ships. A lot of people go on about the Neutrino having better autoresolve due to their shields, but I still see them getting wrecked quite often. Maybe I should stalk their fleets and study them. The Antediluvians are another case where autoresolve lets them do things I really don't think they can. I mean, 5-6 Omens could probably bring down most large Antediluvian fleets simply because they have no shields and are always vulnerable to EMP, so 5-6 Omens can pretty much disable entire ships and pew away with IR Pulse Lasers at their leisure.

DOUBLE EDIT:
Ninja'd AGAIN...
Put it in big bold capital letters on the OP of the Council Loyalists "DEFENDER NERFED. SPARROW NERFED. EVERYTHING NERFED. PAINTBALL GUNS AND LASER POINTERS FOR EVERYONE."
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